This knife any good?

[Wesp666]

Yes, Tim, it does have an all Ti blade.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I was told the blade titanium alloys is 6AL4V.

6AL4V is an alloy with 6% aluminum and 4% vanadium. It is widely used in the aerospace industry and for jewelry. Its widest use in cutlery is for knife frames and handles. It typically is "hardened" in the range RC 32-42 -- abound or below the hardness of untempered ("dead soft") steel. It should be very, very easy to sharpen.

 

[Steve-O]

I've never had a Ti bladed knife, I'm not against them, Ti just isn't a good knife material if you want a sharp tough knife edge. It's a pretty knife that probably be fine for string and openiing letters - not a bad gift - for a non-knife person, it won't rust.

A.G. does have plenty other knives in that price range that are made of real steel.

The thing that frosts me is the "germ" angle - completely bogus. A big bow to the scare campaign currently in vogue. There are bad bugs out there, but you won't stop them with this or any knife...even if you drench them in Lysol.

Here is a knife I would give to MY dad -

http://www.gunaccessories.com/Beretta/electra.asp

You can find it for less at another site if you look, I bet.

Happy merry!


Steve-O

 

[TJT]

Steve-O,
Please back up your claim that it is bogus.We have it backed up,and proven.
Salmonella,e. coli,etc. have been tested and the results are the same.
Will it kill all germs,I really don't know,will it kill the germs associated with cooking,yes.

We could not make a claim like that without being able to back it up,as it is a health issue,not a marketing issue.
As far as what distributors and salesman say,that is on them,we here at Boker stand behind our statements.
Thank you,
TJT

 

[gajinoz]

Steve-O,
Please back up your claim that it is bogus.We have it backed up,and proven.
Salmonella,e. coli,etc. have been tested and the results are the same.
Will it kill all germs,I really don't know,will it kill the germs associated with cooking,yes.

We could not make a claim like that without being able to back it up,as it is a health issue,not a marketing issue.
As far as what distributors and salesman say,that is on them,we here at Boker stand behind our statements.
Thank you,
TJT

I have no idea if this stuff will kill germs or not, or under what circumstances, or what types of germs, or so on, I haven't seen any scientific tests on the matter, I'll have to have a look and see if i can find any.

However, the statement in the ad, (from the link in the first post), is interesting"

"said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it"

This is one of those wonderful marketing terms that can mean anything, or nothing.

Maybe it does kill some germs, but before I made a decision on a knife based on that criterion I'd like to see a report in a reputable scientific journal that confirmed exactly what it can do.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I have a Mission MPU, an integral skeleton handled neck knife made of their "beta titanium". I think the Rockwell is about 45. It does not hold a razor edge, but I hang it in the kitchen as a utility knife, and it's fine for fruits and vegetables. It also cleans off easily, and I don't have to worry about corrosion if I put it back in the kydex sheath while it's still damp.

Titanium isn't a magic wand to wave at germs in the environment, but if you have any residue of food on the kitchen knife, it will inhibit bacterial growth, which is nice. You won't cross-pollute the next apple you cut up

I think the knife in question is cool, but my Mnandi told me to forget it!

 

[JHouston]

... However, the statement in the ad, (from the link in the first post), is interesting"

"said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it"

This is one of those wonderful marketing terms that can mean anything, or nothing.

Maybe it does kill some germs, but before I made a decision on a knife based on that criterion I'd like to see a report in a reputable scientific journal that confirmed exactly what it can do.

How about the National Institutes of Health? The cleff notes version is that on if bacteria get on the Ti metal surface and all other "natural habitats"(ie food) are removed (wiped off), the bacteria growth is about 56% of what it would be on the non inhibiting surface (probably a glass petri dishs as that is about as neutral as it gets.

Does it sterialize everything that it comes in contact with? No, and Boker isn't claiming it will. What they are claiming is that that if you cut a hunk of beef stick off with the knife and wipe it off, you are less likely to start a bacteria farm on your knife than if you than if you used a blade with some other metal.

Oh, and that study is now 20 years old.

 

[Thomas Linton]

1. Titanium citrate inhibits growth of bacteria, as the NIH has noted in the link provided.

Knives are not made of titanium citrate.

2. Titanium dioxide is used as a catalyst to cause UV to break ethylene gas into Carbon dioxide and water. Properly modulated electical charges then tear apart the water and produce hydroxyl radicals which, if contained to produce sifficient concentration (as in a array of tiny tubes), kills organic life. This is the technology used in highly-advanced, very expensive air filters

Knives are not made of Titanium dioxide.
What ethylene gas?
What electrical charge?
What confined space?


But please go on. This is so amusing.

 

[gajinoz]

How about the National Institutes of Health? The cleff notes version is that on if bacteria get on the Ti metal surface and all other "natural habitats"(ie food) are removed (wiped off), the bacteria growth is about 56% of what it would be on the non inhibiting surface (probably a glass petri dishs as that is about as neutral as it gets.

Does it sterialize everything that it comes in contact with? No, and Boker isn't claiming it will. What they are claiming is that that if you cut a hunk of beef stick off with the knife and wipe it off, you are less likely to start a bacteria farm on your knife than if you than if you used a blade with some other metal.

Oh, and that study is now 20 years old.

OK, that's fair enough, and sounds like good material for a kitchen knife.

However, to be pedantic, the two terms:

"said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it"

and

"all other "natural habitats"(ie food) are removed (wiped off), the bacteria growth is about 56% of what it would be on the non inhibiting surface"

are rather different.

Not that any of this makes any difference to me, I'm unlikely to buy the knife so what it can, or can't, do is mostly irrelevant to me. I just felt like being picky today.

 

[JHouston]

1. Titanium citrate inhibits growth of bacteria, as the NIH has noted in the link provided.

Knives are not made of titanium citrate.

True. They are made from a titanium alloy. Well get back to this.

2. Titanium dioxide is used as a catalyst to cause UV to break ethylene gas into Carbon dioxide and water. Properly modulated electical charges then tear apart the water and produce hydroxyl radicals which, if contained to produce sifficient concentration (as in a array of tiny tubes), kills organic life. This is the technology used in highly-advanced, very expensive air filters

Knives are not made of Titanium dioxide.

True: knives are not made of Titanium dioxide. Again, knives are made from a titanium alloy.

But what is also true is that the SURFACE of the knife of this Boker is Anodized (ie some form of oxidation of the titanium alloy - Titanium dioxide? maybe, maybe not). And that SEVERAL titaium alloys all show the same effect of inhibiting the growth of bacteria. Supporting Study

What is the best form of Ti for inhibiting bacteria? According to another NIH study (related to dental use of Ti) pure Ti is best, but this study also shows that alloys have the same benefit to a lesser degree.

Now as to...

What ethylene gas?
What electrical charge?
What confined space?

You said it yourself:

This is the technology used in highly-advanced, very expensive air filters

These speed up the process of the effect that the Ti has on the bacteria and is use to filter the air. I don't see Boker saying their knife will purify the air. Ti is still the catalyst: if it is remove, the process stops. (Just like if you take all the platinum out of you catalytic converter in your car, your exhaust will remain primarily CO instead of CO2.)

What all these studys say is that bacteria that come in contact with Ti tend to die at a faster than normal rate. That is what is meant by "growth is inhibited". They die at a faster rate than they reproduce.

But please go on. This is so amusing.

Glad I could amuse you.

However, to be pedantic, the two terms:

"said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it"

and

"all other "natural habitats"(ie food) are removed (wiped off), the bacteria growth is about 56% of what it would be on the non inhibiting surface"

are rather different.

Only if you read "said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it" to mean you can stick the knife in a bottle of bacteria saturated liquid and it will kill them all. It won't unless the liquid was circulated over enough surface area at a sufficant rate (technically not possible.)

Why did they use Ti instead of steel? Because Ti kills germs (and every scientific study I can find says it does) which makes it biologically safer than steel.

I'm not telling everyone to rush out and buy one of these (I probably won't, but wife might need some new kitchen knives this Christmas, hmm...), but I can't find anything about the statement that isn't a valid selling point.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Your link to NIH in you initial offer of proof says Titanium citrate kills bacteria, not the material of which Ti knives are made.

Your latest link leads to the NIH home page, not to an article on Titanium. ??????

You link to the Indian study is interesting. It shows, when one reads it, that Ti-dioxide surfaces exposed to "six Black light Blue (BLB) florescent lamps (Phillips make, 4 watts)" showed significant bacteriocidal effect after eleven days exposure, and marginal effect after four days exposure. The oxidozed surfaces left in the dark showed no such effect.

Obviously, TI knives will not come supplied with the appropriate "Black light Blue" lamp -- or the ethelene gas and electrical charging apparatus as used in the air filters.

Sorry if I was snotty. Look, this might be the real deal, but nothing you have produced thus far elevates this above the status of snake oil.

How about one "scientific study" that shows that anything like a Ti knife blade has a bacterioscopic effect absent factors not present in kniofe use, like "Black light blue lamps" and electrically charging the blade? And it would help if it has been peer-reviewed.

 

[gajinoz]

The only real way to resolve this particular argument is to conduct a real scientific test with controls, (double blind and so on ..), with one, or several, of these knives and another made of steel and see what the results are.

I'm not arguing, at this point, whether or not they do or don't kill bacteria, I'm more making a comment on the meaningless marketing statement:

"said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it"

Said by who?
ANY germ?
Under any conditions?
[Add many more questions here ...]

Maybe this thing can "inhibit" bacteria growth, maybe it can't. I just hate misleading marketing hype.

 

[DaveH]

Let's just get to it:

Unless Boker can supply scientific tests that this specific knife can kill all germs in comes into contact with then it just marketing BS. And if they can't prove it then it's deceptive advertising if not lies.

So the ball is in TJT's court, show us the tests.

 

[DaveH]

The claim of germ killing is only applicable to the Ti we use on the kitchen knives.The Ti bladed pocket knives and such have a different make-up. All the Ti knives with the blue crystalline appearance have been discontinued,

Ok I just pulled this from TJT on the boker forum. Please note that

- Germ killing is only for the Kitchen knives.
- It doesn't matter because they're discontinued.

it' still like to see some proof.

 

[JHouston]

I corrected the link to the second NIH study. I deals with Ti and its alloys in a powder form.

While I haven't found "THE" study online that carves it in granite, what I have found plenty of medical and industrial applications of Titanium for its anti-microbial, anti-bacterial properties (the company I work for is a medical facility and user of many of these types of products). The most common version being TiO2 (which from its apperiance is most likely what the surface of the Boker knife is). Most applications referance that light factors into it (photo catalyst) and that UV actively enhances the anti-bacterial capabilities (as opposed to passive capabilities).

The reason they put UV lights on the filters is that the insides of the filters are dark and light (with UV having the greatest effect) "excites" (amplifies and improves) the process. Many manufactures of TiO2 surface coating go so far as to refer to it's self cleaning and disinfecting properties under exposure to UV radiation (bottom of the page).

Every chemical company I looked at that sells Ti (usually in the form of a chemical grade powder of TiO2) references the antimicrobial properties of it. (This company states use for antimicrobial wall paint and for neurtralizing hazordous chemicals on coated surfaces.)

Here is a phamaceudical patent for a contact len disinfectant.

As to who says it kills germs:
PPG (USAToday Artical)
Science News

None on of the things I've read leads me to believe the statement is misleading. Is it possible to read too much into it; yes. The only thing that would make it more accurate is "in the presence of light", because that is, from everything I've read, an industrially accepted fact.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I corrected the link to the second NIH study. I deals with Ti and its alloys in a powder form.

The corrected link is to a study showing that ADHESION of bacteria is reduced more by pure Ti than it is by the very alloy in question here, Al6V4. The study also shows that albumin and human saliva also reduce bacterial adhesion to a surface. (Lick your knives clean - carefully!!! [or dip them in egg whites])

While I haven't found "THE" study online that carves it in granite, what I have found plenty of medical and industrial applications of Titanium for its anti-microbial, anti-bacterial properties (the company I work for is a medical facility and user of many of these types of products). The most common version being TiO2 (which from its apperiance is most likely what the surface of the Boker knife is). Most applications referance that light factors into it (photo catalyst) and that UV actively enhances the anti-bacterial capabilities (as opposed to passive capabilities).

The studies you cite (as you note below) say light is NECESSARY for the anti-bacterial effect. No light= no effect. In fact, the levels of UV required to achieve the effect with ordinary Titanium dioxide exceed that present in sunlight according to those studies.

The reason they put UV lights on the filters is that the insides of the filters are dark and light (with UV having the greatest effect) "excites" (amplifies and improves) the process.

No artifically high levels of UV, no effect

Many manufactures of TiO2 surface coating go so far as to refer to it's self cleaning and disinfecting properties under exposure to UV radiation (bottom of the page).

Every chemical company I looked at that sells Ti (usually in the form of a chemical grade powder of TiO2) references the antimicrobial properties of it. (This company states use for antimicrobial wall paint and for neurtralizing hazordous chemicals on coated surfaces.)

Those that sell it say it works. OK.

Here is a URL=http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents100/Yr2004/Sept2004/091404/6790409_ContactLens091404.htm]phamaceudical patent[/URL] for a contact len disinfectant.

The patent claim says that a "germicidal solution" that also contains powdered Ti and high levels of sodium chloride kills germs. (Patent No. 6,790,409)

As to who says it kills germs:
PPG (USAToday Artical)
Science News

The USA Today article repeats a generalized PPG claim that can't be related to knife-making due to lack of details.

The Science News article discusses addition of nitrogen ions to Titanium dioxide with the claimed effect that ordinary light, instead of artificial levels of UV, has a bacteriacidal effect. Still sounds like licking the blade clean is more practical.

None on of the things I've read leads me to believe the statement is misleading. Is it possible to read too much into it; yes. The only thing that would make it more accurate is "in the presence of light", because that is, from everything I've read, an industrially accepted fact.

Nothing produced yet supports the claimed effect in the real world and, as noted above, Boker seems to have abandoned the claim except for discontinued "kitchen" knives.

And still, there could be something there. Or not.

 

[TJT]

Well,DaveH.
I stand behind the statement,and don't figure I have to provide anything else,as I am not making claims,and I am not advertising it.
If we were making fraudulent claims for all these years,we would have been in trouble by now,don't you think.
I'm not a Ti or medical expert,I work with knives.I also do not like to argue with people.If you want to think it's all BS,more power to you.
I just think that any difference in what we say vs. a seperate advertiser says should be taken into account.
And if you really want to know that bad,they are still available,you can buy one and test it yourself.
But thanks for the interest.
TJT

 

[Steve-O]

All I meant to say is:

No blade, by it's components alone, can claim more than to be 'antiseptic' - it can only kill things it comes in contact with.

See slicing...

Steve

 

[gajinoz]

None on of the things I've read leads me to believe the statement is misleading. Is it possible to read too much into it; yes. The only thing that would make it more accurate is "in the presence of light", because that is, from everything I've read, an industrially accepted fact.

Yes, but that is the whole point. Well, the whole point of MY argument anyway. The statement is effectively misleading if not technically so.

Have a careful look at the statement:

"said to kill any germ that comes in contact with it"

This could very easily lead many people into thinking that they can leave this knife laying around with any crud left on the blade and there is no problem because any germs will be instantly killed by the blade. This is obviously nonsense to clever and critical thinkers like those of us on BF but many people would see it this way. The statement is not technically incorrect, or even illegal possibly, because of the very important qualifying bit: " said to ..". They are not saying that the knife WILL kill any germ coming into contact with it under any conditions, they are making a vague statement that somebody somewhere sometime "said" that it would do this.

Marketing hype.

 

[DaveH]

We have it backed up,and proven. Salmonella,e. coli,etc. have been tested and the results are the same. Will it kill all germs,I really don't know,will it kill the germs associated with cooking,yes.

I stand behind the statement,and don't figure I have to provide anything else,as I am not making claims

I don't want to argue either, I just wanted proof, if not for the pocket knife, for the kitchen knife. I'll call AG tomorrow and see why he put that in the catalog.