This Trend Towards "Guardless" Knives

I like either a dropped edge or a guard of some sort. It doesn't have to be much, but something to remind me not to get careless. If the blade is wide enough, a dropped edge will serve the same purpose. A deep finger groove, like on a Kasper Fighting Folder, or and Emerson Commander works also.
 
To me a knife is a tool, to be used and enjoyed in the good times and must be designed to meet the worst times. The greater the margin of safety the maker can develop in his knives and scabbards the better for the man who pays his bills, his client.

There seems to be a macho image for some to use a knife without a guard, to me it is a needless risk. When I worked on a kill floor I could leg, skin, face head and gut a cow as fast as any and my knife had a full guard.

Years ago one of my students decided he did not want a guard on his knife, he was handy enough (macho) it was not necessary for him. He was hired on as a guide and camp cook for an elk hunt. He was skinning an elk, his hand slipped onto his pride and joy knife without a guard and the entire party (12) hunters, had to cut their pack trip short, break camp and to take him 15 miles back to the highway, then to the hospital. Six hours of surgery, 3 months rehab and years later he can use his hand pretty good, about 40 % recovery, except for his trigger and middle fingers. A cut tendon is a serious event and can take years to heal. I choose not to take the risk.

This summer a student to one of our seminars handed me a knife with out a guard, the handle design was like a slide onto the blade. Just holding it sent a chill down my back. Personally I would not use that knife to sharpen a pencil.

A three piece knife is time saver to make. To develop a guard with a high degree of functional qualities takes me about 6 hours, but for me it is worth it.

There are significant differences in knives and there are many choices. This is a good thing, freedom to make what you believe in and freedom to chose what you will carry.

We all make our choices and then have to live with them.
 
In my country (Norway) we have a 1000 years old tradition of using knives with little or no guard. I was given my first knife when I was 5 years old, and that was a Mora knife with the red wooden handle. Sure I have cut myself several times, and still do, but I learned what I should and should not do with a knife when I was young enough not to be strong enough to rely hurt myself. That same Mora knife is regularly used during deerhunting season her in Norway, skinning and butchering deer, and with proper training I do not see a problem with this. It certainly has nothing to do with being macho...
 
For the most part it's personal taste/user technique. I like wide-bladed fixed blades that tend to have an integral guard, which is completely sufficient for any using task I can think of. If there isn't a guard, chances are there's some kind of integral indexing, a swell in the handle, a thumb ramp, jimping, something that provides the ergonomics and grip required to safely operate the knife. The ESEE 3/4 is a bad example, yes... very poorly executed ergonomics. There are some knives without those features that for whatever reason provide completely sufficient, safe and comfortable grip. One that I can think of is the Cold Steel Finn Bear. There's some intuition and practical experience that should be applied to knife design, and sometimes it's trial and error. Either way it amazes me that many mainstream popular knives have such horrendous ergonomics in general but for whatever reason appeals to the masses.

Alot of times a designated guard will get in the way of using technique, which is why they have been disappearing.
 
PayetteRucker said:
For the most part it's personal taste/user technique. I like wide-bladed fixed blades that tend to have an integral guard, which is completely sufficient for any using task I can think of. If there isn't a guard, chances are there's some kind of integral indexing, a swell in the handle, a thumb ramp, jimping, something that provides the ergonomics and grip required to safely operate the knife. The ESEE 3/4 is a bad example, yes... very poorly executed ergonomics. There are some knives without those features that for whatever reason provide completely sufficient, safe and comfortable grip. One that I can think of is the Cold Steel Finn Bear. There's some intuition and practical experience that should be applied to knife design, and sometimes it's trial and error. Either way it amazes me that many mainstream popular knives have such horrendous ergonomics in general but for whatever reason appeals to the masses.

Alot of times a designated guard will get in the way of using technique, which is why they have been disappearing.
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Some time back you said that with the new handle extensions from KSF that they were acceptable and good to go - especially recommending the #3. :confused:

I spent a lot of money based on your suggestions because you've got a lot of experience. Now you think they're not any good?
 
I grew up with Moras and Pukkos, they never ha a guard, and I still have all my 9 eh. I mean 10 fingers. Even my 9" chopper doesn`t have a guard. I don`t need one.
 
i think the same way ed does. a knife without a guard scares me but they can get in the way sometimes which is why i started designing my knives with the integral guard like the knife in my sig line. there is nothing to get in the way and there is no way for your hand to slip up onto the blade.
 
I've never really been impressed by guards, and I've never used a knife with guard on it, with the sole exception of my old Randall number 14 I carried in the service. Once I sold that off, Inever had another knife with a guard. I've got a couple of small Puuko's that I love for when I feel the need for a death knife. I used the heck out of an old Mora number 1 with the wood handle, haven't cut myself to date. As was mentioned, the Scandinavians have a 1000 plus year history of using this style of knife, there must be a reason. Pro butchers and chefs use guard less knives, and most of use carry and use pocket/folding knives with no guard for 99% of our knife use. Many an old timer used his well worn barlow knife, or the cowboy and his stockman, with no problems. The old mountain men used the heck out of those I.Wilson and Green River knives that were little more than plain butcher knives. No guards.

I think if the knife user/owner steps up and takes some personal responsibility for the safe use of the tool there is no problem. I grew up in a waterman family down on Maryland's Eastern shore. My grandfather had his own boat, and summers I worked on the Lady Anne as odd deck hand. There was this old tin bucket full of old butcher knives that was used to cut the bait that went in the crab pots. Salted bull lips, salted eel, all kind of rubbery and needed a sharp knife. One of my jobs when heading out was to touch up the knives on that big old concave carborundum stone he had. All the watermen used the same old butcher knives, and cut bait on rocking pitching crab boats, yet returned to the dock that afternoon with all digits intact. They just watched what they were doing. They used the tool correctly.

Putting guards on working knives is like putting safeties on revolvers. If you practice safe gun handling, you don't need them. Somehow men like Bill Jorden and Elmer Keith got by without shooting themselves in the foot. If you are a careless idiot, no safety is going to prevent an eventual disaster. There is an unfortunate trend in our society to try to regulate safety. Warning labels, safety caps that a senior citizen can't open, cars with all kinds of warning bells and whistles and airbags. This erodes personal responsibility.

Ironically, the only two very bad self inflicted injuries with a knife I have seen, was failure of the lock. In both cases, a young (under 30) man was ignoring safe knife handling by putting stress the wrong way on his knife, blindly trusting to the lock. The lock gave, and in one case, the right index finger was totally severed and had to be reattached, the other was the right index and middle fingers suffering ligament and nerve damage requiring hand surgery to maybe help out things. So, if locks can fail, should we just used fixed blades?

Accidents happen when you get careless and don't pay attention, pure and smile. Respect the tool. If you need a guard to feel safe, maybe you should carry those EMT shears.

Carl.
 
If a knife does not have at least minimal protection to prevent fingers from sliding forward onto the blade (in particular, the cutting edge, not spine), I will not buy or use it. Simply no reason in my perception to not have at least something for safety, especially considering the consequences of it not being there. Even a protruding flipper is sufficient.
 
Ed Fowler said:
To me a knife is a tool, to be used and enjoyed in the good times and must be designed to meet the worst times. The greater the margin of safety the maker can develop in his knives and scabbards the better for the man who pays his bills, his client.

There seems to be a macho image for some to use a knife without a guard, to me it is a needless risk. When I worked on a kill floor I could leg, skin, face head and gut a cow as fast as any and my knife had a full guard.

Years ago one of my students decided he did not want a guard on his knife, he was handy enough (macho) it was not necessary for him. He was hired on as a guide and camp cook for an elk hunt. He was skinning an elk, his hand slipped onto his pride and joy knife without a guard and the entire party (12) hunters, had to cut their pack trip short, break camp and to take him 15 miles back to the highway, then to the hospital. Six hours of surgery, 3 months rehab and years later he can use his hand pretty good, about 40 % recovery, except for his trigger and middle fingers. A cut tendon is a serious event and can take years to heal. I choose not to take the risk.

This summer a student to one of our seminars handed me a knife with out a guard, the handle design was like a slide onto the blade. Just holding it sent a chill down my back. Personally I would not use that knife to sharpen a pencil.

A three piece knife is time saver to make. To develop a guard with a high degree of functional qualities takes me about 6 hours, but for me it is worth it.

There are significant differences in knives and there are many choices. This is a good thing, freedom to make what you believe in and freedom to chose what you will carry.

We all make our choices and then have to live with them.
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^^^^^

Bravo! :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
One seldom thinks about what happens when the user is at less then 100% capability -- like in a survival scenario when food / water shortages / tired / injury may take its toll.

Less capability = more sloppy = guard more necessary.

I prefer a single guard with a choil myself.

-Stan
 
This post really made me think. Mostly about how different people will want different tools for the same intended use. What do I know about blades/knives/cutting tools, after all? My needs obviously vary from yours. My favorite knife and EDC is an ESEE 3. It fits my hand very well and performs my cutting needs very well. Again, what do I know about cutting tools and your needs? I guess not much. What I know is what works for me personally and professionally. Personally I am a many things, professionally I am a surgeon. Different strokes, different folks.
 
I'd like to think that a well designed finger guard wouldn't interfere with a knife's performance any more than your fat finger which is right behind it. ;)
 
The seax was primarily a "cheap" blade made in sizes from short utility knife to short sword. I would guess that having a guard on a blade in the old days was an issue of being able to afford a blade like that in more cases that the owner actually having a preference.
OrdnanceBubbaUSMC said:
Knives like the Cold Steel Holdout and similar are designed to use palm-reinforced forward grip or reverse grip thumb-capped butt. Guard is never really to stop your sliding hand from going forward...that is a bad design and you will loose force. Handle shape and using the butt of the handle is to stop knife/hand movement. Guards were there to stop other weapons from hitting your fingers and the top of your hand. Smaller, ornamental guards and catches are mostly 20th century designs.

Most 7-13in. bladed knives were backup weapons/utility knives for centuries, better without a guard that might catch on clothing when drawn for emergency or get in the way of utility work - not true dueling or primary battle weapons. Most of the large seax knives that were old European ancestors to Bowie knives, did not have a guard.
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Very cold weather and a job to be done makes me appreciate a guard on a knife I am about to use to render an animal into food.I like a guard since I actually use a knife for these things.Others use knives for other things in warmer weather.
 
The Randall #4 is designed for skinning big game and has a lower guard plus a choil ahead of that. I wouldn't want to have that in my gory hand up inside a carcass without the guard. The stacked leather would be pretty slick and dangerous without the guard.

Many modern knives both fixed and folding have a deep finger groove for one's index finger and this serves the same function as a half guard. Others often come with very grippy, contoured handles of micarta, kraton, or similar that also help with retention. The fat stacked birch bark on a classic puukko (sp?) is also very grippy.

The Spyderco Mule knives have a tang guard plus a finger groove. I cut the tang guard off the one in our kitchen for better utility on a cutting board, but I left it on the one in my shop for the extra safety it provides.The kitchen Mule has a fat cork handle which is a lot like the birch bark, light and grippy. Horses for courses.
 
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I don’t need a guard in normal cases. I use guardless knives in my kitchen, on the job, in my pocket knives, and don’t worry about safety. But…that’s when circumstances are good. I am awake and alert. Lighting is adequate. I have good footing and a clear work space. I habitually handle knives carefully.

For possible emergency use, for hiking or hunting, it’s a different story. I may need to make shelter and a fire when things are bad. Hypothermia, blood loss, shock, any number of things can have me less than awake and alert. (E.G., When I was a kid I walked on ice, halfway across a creek. Burrrr…) The last thing I need in those circumstances is to add sliced fingers to my problems. For any knife I might need in tough times, I want an effective guard. That can be an elongated bolster such as Randall and Ed Fowler make. It can be a handle shape that discourages finger slipping. In either case, packing for those circumstances, I leave my macho in the kitchen.
 
Webster Marbles ideal knife had a gaurd, and a more experienced outdoorsman never existed.
 
I will say that I really really really really really hate dual guards...Yuppers even on fighters I hate them...

i hate them as much as I hate an empty peanut butter jar

Single guards I am warming up on right now...rewatching Mr Fowlers video right now and I can see why it takes a while to do it right...

Dont like fitting it though...
 
Housewives and cooks the world over use paring knives and utility knives without a guard. I didn't realize they all were trying to be macho.
 
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