This Trend Towards "Guardless" Knives

Ken44 said:
This is not a trend. Or at least not a recent one. The only knives i have with a guard is Randall's, and I don't use them.

Fighting knives still have guards, as they always have. Most hunting/outdoor knives(Randall being one of the main one's that does) do not use them.

Gene Ingram, Charles May, and Bob Dozier make my favorite hunting knives. They have been making knives for a while, and none use a guard. Well, Bob does use them on a few of his knives, but his best sellers by far are micarta on steel.


edit- my reason for not liking big finger guards is that they can get in the way, and are not needed unless on a fighting knife. I was a butcher and owned a game processing business for many years, and never used a knife with a guard.
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The guard doesn't need to be large really, just big enough to prevent the hand from slipping forward accidentally. :)

They can be integral, separate or even a dropped edge will work as long as it's there.

If the knife is designed well the guard won't be in the way at all in use.

Personally I lean toward smooth handles that are made to fit the hand for comfort during use.
 
The one time I saw an accidental cut was while friends were salvaging a moose after a vehicular collision, older Athabaskan fellow, cut his other hand, no real damage, but it got infected and fast. My little brother had the wisdom to stay single and not have kids, ensuring that he gets to hunt and play, uses the Benchmade Rift that I gave him.

What I'm sayin', difference of opinion is just fine, no one can force anyone else to think how they do, so it's just fine that there is variety. ;)
 
JDM- You hit the nail directly on the head, a friend makes about 20 three piece knives in a day. They are the most profitable knives he can make and still call them custom.
 
GMAHN said:
Judging by the massive amount of butt-hurt coming from Kris and Grapevine I would have to conclude that having no guard does not make you macho but infact makes you a baby.
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Heh. No butt hurt on my part, no matter how much you may wish it to make you feel better for not having a good argument against people who have a preference for knives without guards. I have knives with guards and ones without. I generally prefer the ones without because most of my needs are either small, less than 3" blades that need fine control and the guard gets in the way. And I don't hunt so the instances of mucking around inside a deer's chest cavity doesn't apply. If I did, I'd have no problems listening to sage advice that a guarded knife would be better in that particular hunting situation.

But because you made that butt hurt statement now I'm not going to invite you to my birthday party when I kill my first deer in macho fashion.
 
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I am glad to see that the discussion has remained professional! :p
Please, no smart remarks denigrating any other member, it just isn't fun.
 
It's been said already, so I'll just reiterate. The guard serves a purpose, so not every knife will need one for every purpose. Also, knives have been guardless for millenia, so there is nothing more or less traditional about them. Here's a basic idea behind guards:

hilt, guard on spine and blade side: for combat, period. The guard protects the hand. There is no other good reason to have a back guard (on the spine).

guard on blade side: to protect the fingers from sliding up. This is mostly for any task where your finger might easily slide up onto the blade, for example skinning and processing animals.

no guard: allows for the best manipulation of the blade, allows you to choke up to the maximum degree for great leverage while cutting. Very useful for bushcrafting knives or any utility knife. Basically having no guard is preferable, unless you know you are going to fight with that knife or do something that might make your fingers slide up on the knife. Think of it this way: the guard gets in the way and shouldn't be there, unless there is a good reason why you need it.

EDIT: for the folks who were talking about a "hunting bowie" with a full guard used back in the olden times... bowie knives were never hunting knives, especially not ones with a full guard. They were fighting knives, period. A bowie knife was basically a short sword and used primarily for dueling or just street fighting. Twas a different time. But no, they were never designed for hunting and, in fact, are not ideal for hunting. Too big, too heavy. But perfect for knife fighting!
 
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Magnaminous_G said:
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EDIT: for the folks who were talking about a "hunting bowie" with a full guard used back in the olden times... bowie knives were never hunting knives, especially not ones with a full guard. They were fighting knives, period. A bowie knife was basically a short sword and used primarily for dueling or just street fighting. Twas a different time. But no, they were never designed for hunting and, in fact, are not ideal for hunting. Too big, too heavy. But perfect for knife fighting!
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You have just explained why a "hunting bowie" was not a "bowie knife." You might want to research "hunting bowie."
 
Actually, the English sold a LOT of small bowies as hunting knives and general utility knives in the period after the Civil War. I saw a couple of tables full of originals at the Lakeland knife show a couple of weeks ago. That design was arguably revitalized in the mid 20th century with knives such as the Randall Model 1, 14, 15, etc, the USMC knife, the Air Force survival knife, the larger Buck fixed blades like the 119 and a host of others. When I make a small bowie in that 6 1/2 to-8 inch range with fancy features like a stag carver handle, I call it a "cowboy" bowie.
Magnaminous_G said:
It's been said already, so I'll just reiterate. The guard serves a purpose, so not every knife will need one for every purpose. Also, knives have been guardless for millenia, so there is nothing more or less traditional about them. Here's a basic idea behind guards:

hilt, guard on spine and blade side: for combat, period. The guard protects the hand. There is no other good reason to have a back guard (on the spine).

guard on blade side: to protect the fingers from sliding up. This is mostly for any task where your finger might easily slide up onto the blade, for example skinning and processing animals.

no guard: allows for the best manipulation of the blade, allows you to choke up to the maximum degree for great leverage while cutting. Very useful for bushcrafting knives or any utility knife. Basically having no guard is preferable, unless you know you are going to fight with that knife or do something that might make your fingers slide up on the knife. Think of it this way: the guard gets in the way and shouldn't be there, unless there is a good reason why you need it.

EDIT: for the folks who were talking about a "hunting bowie" with a full guard used back in the olden times... bowie knives were never hunting knives, especially not ones with a full guard. They were fighting knives, period. A bowie knife was basically a short sword and used primarily for dueling or just street fighting. Twas a different time. But no, they were never designed for hunting and, in fact, are not ideal for hunting. Too big, too heavy. But perfect for knife fighting!
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Back in the 1800's I Wilson was the wallmart knive of the time, they were also probably most used. Their knives were cheap and used in slaughter houses and during the mountain man era harvesting hides. They did not last long and were what I would call the disposable knives of the frontier, used until they were no more then discarded.

George Fredrick Ruxton, author of "Life in the Far West" and Adventures in Mexico and the Rocky Mountains" Published in 1846 and 1847, came the the states in the early 1800's, I read his books seeking information about the knives of the mountain men and learned a little.

"'Knife well greased, clothing and knifes were of genuine mountain make" And another reference to a Stag Butcher Knife" I have not seen a I Wilson with a stag handle. Frontier made?

"They used a tomahawk while butchering a buffalo"

My take from what he said the I Wilson knives were primarily used for skinning and butchering, they carried their large "mountain made" knives in a sheath on a belt.

Jim Bridger was a blacksmith by trade at one time, there were many blacksmiths on the frontier. I believe some of them made knives, the fixed blade knife would be a simple task for any black smith. Ben Lilly forged his own knives, the only one I have seen a photo of had a guard on it, a drawing in another book of one of his knives had an antler handle, the brow time served as a guard. Jim Bridger was illiterate and would not have signed knives any more than he would have signed a repaired axle. Same with most blacksmiths of their time. Knives like most humans of the time were conceived without birth certificates or patents, just made and used until they were no more and what steel was left used for something else.

There is a big difference between a "fighting knife and a combat knife. Most combat knives can serve as a fighting knife, specialty fighting knives are pretty worthless as a combat knife. Combat knives have to do it all, dig in the dirt, chip ice, and should be hard working knives. I can not remember seeing a Sheffield knife that would fit my requirements for a combat or camp knife. Check out an Ames Rifle Man's Knife and you will get an idea of what the combat knife of the early 1800's could have looked like.

We don't have many documented accounts of what the every day knives of the mountain men carried with them, all we can do is consider what we would have liked to have with us in their situation. When you read accounts of the ill fated Fremont expedition, you find they used their knives to skin frozen horses, dig in frozen ground for edible roots and chip a frozen otter out of the ice of a frozen river.

Earlier that that Lewis and Clark had 17 (I believe) knives made for them at Harper's Ferry Arsenal, there were evidently prized and earned them the name of "Long knives" buy the Indians they visited. Unfortunately the Harper's Ferry records were destroyed during the Civil War and we have no known description of them.

If any readers come across any other mention of frontier knives I would like to hear from you.

Our lives are now much different now - 99% of the time and our expectations of a knife are less than they once were.
 
Ed, the one gripe that I have heard from modern knife makers about a number of the post Civil War Sheffield "bowie hunters" was about the handles. I know that you are familiar with the typical straight, skinny full tang handle where the guard was slipped over the tang as opposed to the blade like on a Loveless Big Bear and the tang was not subsequently forged out wider with the guard already in place like on some of the more basic "field grade" Price knives. One smith told me early on that such a knife was best suited for sticking in the wall and hanging your coat on it.:D When you get into the fancier ones with metal table cutlery handles, that is yet another horror show. LOL. I have enjoyed your articles about your discovery of how folks like Price, Scagel, Ruana and others had figured things out about knives that some of us modern makers perhaps thought we had "discovered" I know that Bill Moran said that he got his first look at a good distal taper on an old French cutlass and Kevin Cashen said that many of the old rapier blades that he handled during his visit to the Wallace Collection had grinds that us ABs guys would find very familiar. The more we look at the old stuff, the more we discover that some very talented people figured out a lot of this stuff a long time ago. it is pretty tough to come up with something really new AND effective on a fixed blade knife as folks have been trying to figure this stuff out of millennia.
 
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Joe:I feel you are correct. Many years ago I tried to believe in the Sheffield bowie hunter, I even tried to use one. In my opinion the Old Sheffield bowies are nothing but gussied up Kitchen knives. The fact that so many prized "Civil War Bowies" survive in Mint Condition testifies a to how many of them got used. It you get a chance study some of the books on Confederate bowie knifes made in the south and read what they had to say about the English knives. Most Bowie knives are art knives first. The Huber is one that stands alone and a work of art and function. Don't take their later high ticket art knives with the fancy handles too seriously, but look at their early work. The blades remained good designs.

Take some time and study the stone age knives and follow through to the present when ever you get a chance. Look at all the knives you can from and and all countries Stone age man made some nice knives, we have 400,000 years of knife makers work to examine. Constantly ask why and what for?. The knives of the Phillipe makers are very original, functional and in my opinion they were and are great knife makers. All Price knives are not great but were sold as jewelry for men, they were money makers.

The probability that we can come up with something original is remote, some try to do it by making preposterous knives or use some new wonder steel. Great designs are available to us to study. Form follows function, when we put ourselves in the position of our intended clients and spend time doing what they do with their knives, design will work itself out, the more we read and old knives we study the greater our understanding.

When folks try to tell you what your knives should look like, ask your self what their personal life experience with knives contributes to their knives and you will learn a lot. Today style sells more knives than function. Great distal taper in a straight line to the tip does not guarantee a great knife, but a popular one.

We as makers have a lot of history to sort through, fortunately Hank Reinheart provided us with a great history for study as have many other authors. Ruana's early work can be studied in Townsley's new book The hammer still rings.
 
I reviewed his book of swords for Blade, hope to review the book of knives as soon as I get a copy. Thanks for the heads up, I did not know it was coming.
 
By "hunting bowie," do you folks mean the kind with a single, blade-side guard and a 5" blade? Then sure, that is an appropriate hunting knife, but it just makes liberal use of the name "Bowie." The Bowie knives based on Bowie's design were fighting knives. Of course, you *can* use a 14" knife with a back guard for hunting. You can use it to cut your fingernails, too, but it's a poor choice.

I can quote several highly-respected authorities on knives, but I'll just pick one: Woodcraft and Camping, by Horace Kephart (namesake of the "Kephart" knife):

“On the subject of hunting knives I am tempted to be diffuse. In my green and callow days (perhaps not yet over) I tried nearly everything in the knife line from a shoemaker’s skiver to a machete, and I had knives made to order. The conventional hunting knife is, or was until quite recently, of the familiar dime-novel pattern invented by Colonel Bowie. Such a knife is too thick and clumsy to whittle with, much too thick for a good skinning knife, and too sharply pointed to cook and eat with. It is always tempered too hard. When put to the rough service for which it is supposed to be intended, as in cutting through the ossified false ribs of an old buck, it is an even bet that out will come a nick as big as a saw-tooth — and Sheridan forty miles from a grindstone! Such a knife is shaped expressly for stabbing, which is about the very last thing that a woodsman ever has occasion to do, our lamented grandmothers to the contrary notwithstanding. ... For such purposes a rather thin, broadpointed blade is required, and it need not be over four or five inches long. Nothing is gained by a longer blade, and it would be in one’s way every time he sat down.”
 
I was referring to a knife in say the 7 inch range that has the traditional double guard.
Magnaminous_G said:
By "hunting bowie," do you folks mean the kind with a single, blade-side guard and a 5" blade? Then sure, that is an appropriate hunting knife, but it just makes liberal use of the name "Bowie." The Bowie knives based on Bowie's design were fighting knives. Of course, you *can* use a 14" knife with a back guard for hunting. You can use it to cut your fingernails, too, but it's a poor choice.

I can quote several highly-respected authorities on knives, but I'll just pick one: Woodcraft and Camping, by Horace Kephart (namesake of the "Kephart" knife):

“On the subject of hunting knives I am tempted to be diffuse. In my green and callow days (perhaps not yet over) I tried nearly everything in the knife line from a shoemaker’s skiver to a machete, and I had knives made to order. The conventional hunting knife is, or was until quite recently, of the familiar dime-novel pattern invented by Colonel Bowie. Such a knife is too thick and clumsy to whittle with, much too thick for a good skinning knife, and too sharply pointed to cook and eat with. It is always tempered too hard. When put to the rough service for which it is supposed to be intended, as in cutting through the ossified false ribs of an old buck, it is an even bet that out will come a nick as big as a saw-tooth — and Sheridan forty miles from a grindstone! Such a knife is shaped expressly for stabbing, which is about the very last thing that a woodsman ever has occasion to do, our lamented grandmothers to the contrary notwithstanding. ... For such purposes a rather thin, broadpointed blade is required, and it need not be over four or five inches long. Nothing is gained by a longer blade, and it would be in one’s way every time he sat down.”
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I'm thinking a lot of people see a guard like some people see seatbelts, won't need it unless I crash and I don't plan on crashing.
Personally, I like knives with and without out guards. All kinds, fighters, outdoor, etc. There is something about a well executed guard on a Bowie knife.
Speaking of which, I haven't read where anyone has pointed out the other pupose of a guard besides your hand slipping forward. It also offers some protection against things coming at your hand.
 
I have an incredibly hard time seeing a guardless knife as some sort of macho stunt for the ill-informed. Is it macho not to wear a steel mesh glove any time you're using a knife? I mean, if you're wearing that stainless steel mesh glove you're a lot less likely to slip and cut your hand and ruin a pack trip for eleven innocent hunters, right?

Are sharp pointed scissors macho? Cause they do have the rounded safety style...

Just how big does a guard have to be to not be macho? Do we all need full hand covering saber guards in order to chop broccoli without it being a stunt?

Whether or not to have a guard on a knife is really a question of ergonomics, and to some extent aesthetics. There are a lot more ways to cut yourself than by just having your hand slip down on the blade. If the guard interferes with the cutting motion and you compromise control to accommodate it, you haven't made the situation any safer.
 
Guard/No Guard- depends on the use of a knife. I have a combat tanto with nominal guard. Why? It was never, ever intended to stab anyone. Stabbing is not efficient use of that blade. Slashing is. Slashing can cut multiple people in one slash and keep going on to the next. I hear over and over and over about the armor piercing ability of tanto knives. Tantos never were intended to pierce armor. The curved, flat or convex ground tip meant that the tip would slash effectively and push aside the material as it was being cut. Nothing more.
A guard was used when blade on blade contact or the need to stab was included. If I were using my tanto as a backup to a sword or other blade I would have a guard on it to protect some my fingers and prevent slipping up the blade in a thrust (oh and if I were to stab with a guardless knife the only effective way is in the reverse ice pick).
As for other guardless knives, they can allow the ability to clear and choke up for close work. Guards get into the way. Kitchen knives have usually no guard....the blade is made in such a way that you don't need one, yet you can use the pinch grip if needed to choke up on it...incidentally that is the proper way to use a chef's knife when cutting stuff on your cutting surface.

I also will point out that no surgical blade in use that I know of has any guard of any kind. Imagine a scalpel with a bowie style guard...ridiculous right? I have chip carving knives and none of them have a guard for the same reason.
 
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