Thoughts about wasted money

[Troy H]

As my interest in knives begins to cross over from just a collector/user to a hobbyist maker, I realize that I am approaching every purchase with a critical eye. I don't want to buy something only to discover that a tool, gizmo or whatnot isn't as helpful as I think it should be.

In my research for a grinder, I've flip-flopped several times before deciding to go with KMG. Now I have begun to agonize over the decision between the 8" and 10" wheel, smooth or serrated. Every small detail is a potential critical flaw that will make my knife making experience less enjoyable than it should be. I know, it's rough.

Anyhow, as I reflect on my vise purchase and wonder if I got the right one, I'm curious what your experiences have been. Do any of you have purchases that you've regretted? Are there any "traps" to avoid when spending my money on knife making equipment?

Thanks all. :thumbup:

 

[drewfacehotm]

a harbor frieght mill,drill. awful little machine, the drawbar is made with like a 10-32 thread with a number 2 morse taper. the drawbar is locked up now and i'm stuck with the 1/2 holder on it, and also the table is pretty sloppy. after i ran a real mill in trade school i just hated myself for wasting 400 bucks on that thing. lessons learned and they don't come cheap

 

[murphda2]

I made the mistake a few years ago of buying a vise from a fairly well known knife supplier at a show. The vise was somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 don't get me wrong, it's a decent vise. It's just that a couple of weeks later I visited my first Harbor Freight and seen the same vise for $30. I felt molested!!!

I've now learned to be more inquisitive and ask "those who know" prior to spending my hard earned money.

Murph

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

The best advise is to visit someone who has a tool you are interested in and use it yourself. You will find if it helps or hinders.

Next, Don't expect any tool, jig, or attachment to make knives for you. With the right tools you can apply your skills easier, but the skills have to be learned. Learning on simple tools - files, sandpaper,etc. - first will tell you where you need to hone those skills. Once you get some knife building skill, getting a proper grinder is a good idea. The KMG is an excellent one.I would suggest purchasing it as the standard package.Once you know your strong and weak points, you can upgrade equipment as needed.
For example: If you are good at hollow grinding, a certain size or type of wheel will be a good addition to your setup. But if you don't hollow grind ( or are bad at it) no wheel or grinding jig will do it for you.

Most equipment is sold with the most commonly used wheels and such. If there is any doubt, as the manufacturer what is the most common attachment purchased. Years ago, I was buying my first Bader from Steven Bader and was ordering several attachments. He told me, You don't really need XXX because you are getting YYY, most folks who have that never use the other again. Now that is a good supplier. Rob at Beaumont is one of those ,too. Ask him what he suggests if you are unsure between two wheel styles.

Stacy

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Thoughts about wasted money...


humm.... I owned several hundred shares of Wachovia - that was enough wasted money to equip a pretty nice shop...


I once got a plasma cutter. It gets used about once every other year. That's money I wish I'da kept.


There are those who get the cheapest, see if they like it, upgrade to one better, decide it isn't good enough, then eventually get the best. Had they simply got the best to begin with they could have saved a lot of time and money.

The flip side to that is, if you have X amount of money to spend, it is better to have a Chinese drill press and Chinese drill bits, than just one or the other...

I mostly use Craftsman tools. I can't justify the expense for Snap-On...

I hate to say "follow the herd" and "just do what everyone else is doing" - but if you ask a question here about "should I get a smooth or a serrated wheel" you'll probably get the answer "if it is your only wheel, might want to go with smooth" and that would probably be good advice.

8" or 10", both will work fine. My personal preference is for the 10" etc...

Most of these questions don't have a right or wrong answer, you're going to be okay if you go with a KMG or a Badger, but if you ask here before the purchase you'll get good advice.

 

[Frank Barron]

The best tool decision I ever made was to get a KMG from Rob Frink. I bought the motor, his step pulley set, a small wheel attachement, flat platten, and a 14 inch wheel. I wish I had bought a couple of other sized small wheel parts. I drove down and picked it up as Rob doesn't ship to Canada direct, I also wanted to meet him, nice man.

My worst tool, a Canadian Tire bandsaw. Great for softwood or small stuff, terrible for cutting cocobolo, or any other hard material. I cut everything on my metal cutting bandsaw. It goes through everything, though slowly. On mine, the work rest sucks, I will fix that.

Other advice. make sure you have lots of lamps, a good dust mask, face shield and apron. Oh yeah, hearing protection. I said hearing protection.

Good luck and post pics of your compleated projects, even if they aren't completed.

 

[nc_cooter]

As Stacy and Nathan said "ask questions". You will likely get different opinions, depending on who you ask. In the end, you have to filter through the answers and decide.
I would love to have a KMG but I can't afford one. I am using the Coote grinder I purchased when I first started making knives. I decided it was the best bang for my buck and have not been disappointed.
I also have a Harbor Freight mini mill/drill that I use for slotting guards. I asked a lot of questions and even joined mini mill groups to assist in my decision. I found, that with some modifications, it is a fine little mill, if used within its limits. It suits my needs.

 

[sunshadow]

I bought the bottom of the line mill/drill (the one that uses morse taper collets) and the transmission broke within 1 inch of unpacking it I ponied up for the next model up (the bottom of the line Grizzly that uses R8 collets) I have been using it for 8 years now, it is a POS but I have been able to get a lot of work done with it as long as I'm willing to work within the limitations of the machine.
Always buy the most machine you can afford

-Page

 

[Hmathews]

If it is a tool or machine that you know that you will use, I would get the best I could afford the first time around. A good machinist bench vise will outlast several cheaper versions. In grinders we bought Dozier's and love them, they are easy to switch over, change belts, and you can get bar stock for the special arms we need at Low's. We also have a Bader and use it every day. I have never used a KMG but wouldn't hesitate to get one. Too many people use them for it not to be a good machine. It really doesn't matter which one you get, you will get use to it and wonder how anyone uses anything else.

A variable speed motor is money well spent on any grinder.

We went with a 14 inch wheel on the grinders because we like the higher hollow grind on a blade and it is easier to do with this wheel. It is not hard to do with an 8 or 10 inch wheel. The main thing is to practice until you get comfortable and you will wonder why you wanted the jigs.

On big stuff it would sure pay to talk with a maker before making the purchase. We have a chop saw we haven't used in years. Same with a planer. Just don't need it. We have a table saw we use as a table mostly and every now and then we cut up big sheets of micarta or split a handle block for scales. We bought a small hand held band saw. We wall mounted it and then went with a full size one. We wall mounted it too and now wish we had gone bigger with that one too.

Don't cut corners on a drill press. It needs to be smooth and the slower you can run it the better. They will all go fast enough. It doesn't have to be big; it just helps if it is smooth and turns true. One thing that would be nice to have on a drill press is a depth control that has no give in it. Most stops are made of plastic and have a bumper on a screw on one side that is adjustable. Some older models have a cast iron stop that doesn't budge or flex. I would love to have a smaller drill press that has that feature. That being said, having two is better than having one and three is better than two. One floor model helps if you are doing any deep holes or drilling handle blocks.

If you decide you need one, I wouldn't cut corners on a mill either. I'm not a machinist, but Charlie is managing to beat some things into my head. Size matters here. A good big mill is a lot better than a good small mill and light years ahead of a poorly made small mill. Doesn't have to be new, or expensive, just good. A lot of mass is important in any mill in my humble opinion.

On equipment for a shop if you settle for something because you are having problems finding what you want, in my experience you just made a mistake that will cost you money in the long run. But sometimes you just have to go ahead and get something that will do the job, but is not the best for the job. Don’t sweat it. It takes all the fun out of making knives if you worry about the equipment all the time. It would be nice to have a few hundred thousand dollars to spend on a shop, but you don’t see that often and all you really have to have is the desire to make a knife.

 

[jim moyer]

As I look around, with exception to my belt grinder, I predominately have an HF shop.

 

[Alden Sherrodd]

360joules, it sounds like you may always suffer from buyers remorse. Make a decision, buy a quality tool, then learn to use and enjoy it. There is no perfect tool, but in the case of some, like KMG grinders most will agree that it is as close as you can come. As far as your contact wheel, make a choice, you may have to add more choices later, but you may find you need multiple wheels to meet your needs. You will not regret spending more as much as you'll regret fighting with a poorly made piece of junk.
Good luck and have fun.
Alden

 

[Erin Burke]

KMG is an excellent choice... Don't regret it.

Wasted money: HF sandpaper. Truly horrible.


Erin

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

As I look around, with exception to my belt grinder, I predominately have an HF shop.

Ah, the weird crinkle green paint stuff...

Anyone walking into my shop is first struck by the amount of stuff packed into a relatively small space. Actually, they're probably first struck by the dark, dank, stinky ambiance - but after that, the amount of large machines packed together. There are big machines and small machines, stuff with little more value than a boat anchor, and stuff worth a small house. But the first machine on the right is a green harbor freight lathe and I use it all the time.

The first lathe I ever got was an old 13" South Bend. This was back in the mid 90's (I'm not an old person, despite my crusty online persona). It had babbit bearings, leather belt, unhardened ways. Way underpowered, and surprisingly flexible considering it's weight. Really a piece of crap. I like to think it is now attached to a chain, setting on the bottom of the McDuffie county lake, as someone's boat anchor. No nostalgia for that POS.

Then I bought a new 12" HF lathe for about the same amount of money. Taper roller spindle bearings, hardened ways, more HP, new. It leaks oil and the electrical switch wore out a couple years ago, but it was the best bang for the buck for any new machine I ever bought and it has paid for itself many times. I still turn stuff within a few tenth's and get a good finish and have never stalled it.

Some of the HF is good stuff. And plenty of shops I've been in has Enco and Vetrax and TurnPro stuff. It all came in on a boat.

 

[Troy H]

360joules, it sounds like you may always suffer from buyers remorse. Make a decision, buy a quality tool, then learn to use and enjoy it.

I don't doubt that everyone will get buyers remorse with one thing or another. I'm trying to limit it, though, with a lot of research and asking questions. Hopefully I'll only have regrets on the smaller stuff -- not a mill/drill (ouch!).

Learning on simple tools - files, sandpaper,etc. - first will tell you where you need to hone those skills. Once you get some knife building skill, getting a proper grinder is a good idea.

I understand the idea behind the approach "learn with the most basic tools" and I both agree and disagree with it. I think that learning how to use a file is very important for when it is needed as the proper tool. I'm just not certain that it's beneficial to deny myself the use of a grinder when it is the proper tool. It seems that this is similar to cooking a pizza with a bic lighter so that you know what your oven is doing.

I'm hungry, man!

The KMG is an excellent one.I would suggest purchasing it as the standard package.Once you know your strong and weak points, you can upgrade equipment as needed.

This is my major reasoning behind getting the KMG. I can build a killer setup in stages. The chassis is the same one for both the basic model and the top of the line so my tracking will be top notch, even if I skimp on the other things right now. I can start out spending about $1400 and upgrade it with more features once I know better.

I have three golf clubs because that's all the difference they make to me. I'm not good enough to need them all. The same is true for me right now about motor speeds -- I've decided to get VS when I have more experience. I'll probably want a 3hp motor later too.

Oh yeah, hearing protection. I said hearing protection.

What?

 

[Troy H]

The approach that I've taken with knife collecting was this...find something good, buy it. Find something better, sell my earlier one and buy it. I have probably spent a staggering amount of money on the 4 knives I currently own through this process. This approach is easy with knives. Many people want them and they are easy to ship.

Unlike the knives that I've bought and sold, I would lose a lot of money if I bought a $100 vise and discovered that it wouldn't suit my needs. Listing it for sale would probably only get me 60-70% of what I paid and it might take me a while to find a local buyer. For a $450 mill/drill, how much could be reclaimed via the secondary market in your area?

I don't want to make mistakes with these large purchases. I also don't want to buy something inexpensive that ruins an expensive piece of steel. Anyone have this happen?

Thanks for all the tips and stories, guys. Keep them coming.

 

[Troy H]

I hate to say "follow the herd" and "just do what everyone else is doing" - but if you ask a question here about "should I get a smooth or a serrated wheel" you'll probably get the answer "if it is your only wheel, might want to go with smooth" and that would probably be good advice.

If I don't do hollow grinding is the answer the same? Is it more effective to hog out the material with the serrated wheel then true it up on the platen or no?

In the spirit of this thread, your response is pretty important.

 

[Hmathews]

Most.... well..... every time I ruin something it is my fault not the equipment's. Usually it is a piece of handle material that I screw up, and I am probably in a hurry. It will be something like countersinking the holes for bolts and ending up with two left handed scales. Most things that screw up you can catch before the material is completely ruined. You might have to change the plans you had for it a little, but you likely won't ruin something so bad that you have to throw it away.

Unless you are just learning how to grind. Then I would recommend getting someone to show you how. There are some techniques that are easier to show someone than tell them. Then get a bunch of cheap steel or iron that you won't mind throwing away and practice a lot before you get serious about making a knife. Start on your weak side first. When you get that, switching to the strong side will be easier. That is the only way you can avoid ruining good steel, and it has nothing to do with having a good or bad grinder. It is more "being" a good or bad grinder. Guess which one we all start out as.

 

[69_knives]

I understand the idea behind the approach "learn with the most basic tools" and I both agree and disagree with it. I think that learning how to use a file is very important for when it is needed as the proper tool.

I completely agree with you on this. I've used a file for many things in my life but not once have I beveled a knife with one. I am/was fully aware that I could use a file to do it, I just didn't want to. If the dark ages ever come and I can't use my grinder to bevel a knife, then I will use a file.

I am trying to think if I have ever regretted buying a tool and can't think of any, the only thing that comes to mind is a cheap plastic tool box that I bought to house my leather working tools. I can't tell you what a piece of crap this thing is.

I really despise parting with money so I'm very cautious about buying tools and therefore I do a lot of research and evaluation of whether I really need it before buying. Checking online ads for deals on what I'm looking for and such. I've been wanting a drill press for some time now, notice I say 'wanting' not needing. I'm pretty good with a hand drill even on the tapered tangs I like to do so I find it hard to justify even the $50.00 - $75.00 that I could get a good used one for.

 

[69_knives]

If I don't do hollow grinding is the answer the same? Is it more effective to hog out the material with the serrated wheel then true it up on the platen or no?

In the spirit of this thread, your response is pretty important.

If you were to be hogging steel for extend periods, the serrated wheel will stay cooler. Otherwise it probably doesn't matter much.

If you are stock removing, using the platen will probably be the best, it may seem slower but it is removing metal from a larger area.

If you are forging, using the wheel is nice if you have a high spot here or there you can cut it down some then go back to the platen.

 

[Troy H]

...and it has nothing to do with having a good or bad grinder. It is more "being" a good or bad grinder. Guess which one we all start out as.

Harry,

I think that your post is spot on. I have no problem cussing myself out for screwing up and I don't think that a more expensive gizmo will prevent this from happening. It will probably happen constantly. I just don't want to spend money on a tool that limits the work I can (or can't ) do, either by design or poor manufacturing. I also don't want to get duped into buying a tool, thinking that it is necessary, when it isn't.

If you are stock removing, using the platen will probably be the best, it may seem slower but it is removing metal from a larger area.

If you are forging, using the wheel is nice if you have a high spot here or there you can cut it down some then go back to the platen.

So do I even need a large wheel for stock removal? Would I get more bang for my buck if I get a platen and small wheel attachment vs platen and large wheel?

Thanks all for your input! :thumbup:

Any other money traps?