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Thoughts and Questions on Knifemaking Today
- Thread starter 2knife
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Not meaning to drag this thing along if guys want to abandon the thread, but I'm having a hard time understanding this. Why wouldn't a maker want to be open about the testing they put their blades through? If for nothing else, it shows due diligence and proper QC. Not trying to bag on you or anything, just curious what the reasons might be.
Nathan
Some reasons not to discuss it in an open forum:
1. You may want to keep what you say about your testing controlled (e.g. on your website, in your literature, etc.) since internet criticism can be brutal, un-informed and damaging. In the days of the great troll Cliff Stamp, he and his buddies got into a real humdinger of a witch fest with Sean Perkins over his testing. He did more testing than many...Fred Perrin loved his designs and execution...Perkins gave up the knife game soon after.
2. You may have good procedures for testing that work for you, but you may compare poorly to a more obsessive compulsive person who is as interested in performance testing than knifemaking.
3. Some makers have a good formula that worked for years and do little testing, a newer maker is finding his road and may do a lot more testing. In comparison, an ignorant buyer may think the more experienced maker does a poorer job, but they may actually be producing a better product.
4. The ABS cutting comparison is an example of problems with misconceptions. A great knife wielded by a 100lb, 5' man will not do as well when compared to the same knife wielded by a 280lb, 6'4" man. Of course, this is a competition, not a test, but people assure the blade that won is better than the one that lost.
If I was a maker, I'd discuss testing with anyone who asks, with each customer and address it in my literature and website. I'd probably discuss testing in a less competitive environment (e.g. makers fourm) than here in the custom forum.
1. You may want to keep what you say about your testing controlled (e.g. on your website, in your literature, etc.) since internet criticism can be brutal, un-informed and damaging. In the days of the great troll Cliff Stamp, he and his buddies got into a real humdinger of a witch fest with Sean Perkins over his testing. He did more testing than many...Fred Perrin loved his designs and execution...Perkins gave up the knife game soon after.
2. You may have good procedures for testing that work for you, but you may compare poorly to a more obsessive compulsive person who is as interested in performance testing than knifemaking.
3. Some makers have a good formula that worked for years and do little testing, a newer maker is finding his road and may do a lot more testing. In comparison, an ignorant buyer may think the more experienced maker does a poorer job, but they may actually be producing a better product.
4. The ABS cutting comparison is an example of problems with misconceptions. A great knife wielded by a 100lb, 5' man will not do as well when compared to the same knife wielded by a 280lb, 6'4" man. Of course, this is a competition, not a test, but people assure the blade that won is better than the one that lost.
If I was a maker, I'd discuss testing with anyone who asks, with each customer and address it in my literature and website. I'd probably discuss testing in a less competitive environment (e.g. makers fourm) than here in the custom forum.
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Thank you brownshoe,
I have found that most of my customers care little about what specific testing I do - most just want to use a blade and know there is a warranty to cover it if they have any problems. But then again, I sell using knives to people who intend to use them.....the collectors market is a whole different game (one I hope to join eventually, just not there yet).
The only cure for ignorance and the assumptions and misconceptions that go along with it is education. I love educated buyers, they push my limits and make me question myself (always a good thing). I actually just made a knife for a machinist instructor at a local trade school. As far as manufacturing processes and metallurgy are concerned, this guy was beyond me, had a fairly exact requirement of what he wanted and what the intended use of that knife was - and was happy with the result, I also really enjoyed making that knife because it forced me to think through everything I was doing.
To me, a knife should be able to withstand whatever the customer intends to do with it. The properties of the finished product should be balanced to acheive this. If edge holding is more important to the intended purpose of the knife than lateral toughness, as an example, then my heat treatment, steel selection and geometry should be adjusted to reflect that end. As I see it, part of my job as a maker is educating the customer about what certain designs and materials are capable of (again, this applies largely to users). I could personally care less about getting pulled into the maelstrom of internet "testing". If one of my kitchen knives fails when batoned through a cinder block, that's ok - it's not meant to be used that way.
Anyway, have a good one, thanks for making me think,
Nathan
I have found that most of my customers care little about what specific testing I do - most just want to use a blade and know there is a warranty to cover it if they have any problems. But then again, I sell using knives to people who intend to use them.....the collectors market is a whole different game (one I hope to join eventually, just not there yet).
The only cure for ignorance and the assumptions and misconceptions that go along with it is education. I love educated buyers, they push my limits and make me question myself (always a good thing). I actually just made a knife for a machinist instructor at a local trade school. As far as manufacturing processes and metallurgy are concerned, this guy was beyond me, had a fairly exact requirement of what he wanted and what the intended use of that knife was - and was happy with the result, I also really enjoyed making that knife because it forced me to think through everything I was doing.
To me, a knife should be able to withstand whatever the customer intends to do with it. The properties of the finished product should be balanced to acheive this. If edge holding is more important to the intended purpose of the knife than lateral toughness, as an example, then my heat treatment, steel selection and geometry should be adjusted to reflect that end. As I see it, part of my job as a maker is educating the customer about what certain designs and materials are capable of (again, this applies largely to users). I could personally care less about getting pulled into the maelstrom of internet "testing". If one of my kitchen knives fails when batoned through a cinder block, that's ok - it's not meant to be used that way.
Anyway, have a good one, thanks for making me think,
Nathan
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About the worries i am turning into an infomercial, i have to laugh. if true, it doesnt bother me. We ALL promote what is our interest.. Sorry but those who find my posts offensive or "loaded", simply change the "channel" . I dont feel i'm doing any injury, asking questions..
i do appreciate the well stated explanation put forth by Brownshoe, and advice, on many issues, and reason for absence of more makers- the harsh critical nature of this forum, and is this the proper venue? .. i see it is not.
There are a few members here always "grandstanding" for attention, likely to stroke or defend their public ego.
I would encourage others, take the opportunity, Ask or put forth your own thoughts/ questions, but keeping personal attacks and politics out.
Nathan, thanks for reviving this offering words about your methods , procedures. Exactly the kind of post i was hoping to read.
David
i do appreciate the well stated explanation put forth by Brownshoe, and advice, on many issues, and reason for absence of more makers- the harsh critical nature of this forum, and is this the proper venue? .. i see it is not.
There are a few members here always "grandstanding" for attention, likely to stroke or defend their public ego.
I would encourage others, take the opportunity, Ask or put forth your own thoughts/ questions, but keeping personal attacks and politics out.
Nathan, thanks for reviving this offering words about your methods , procedures. Exactly the kind of post i was hoping to read.
David
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You are right David in that most all of us have our favorite makers. What most of us dont do is author thread after thread trying to convince others that their's is the only maker.
And as far as "grandstanding" for attention, you're the one that's keeps bringing your own threads back to the top time and time again.
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Fair enough.. Is that really what i do?.. If so, I'll try to be more broad in whatever i introduce. Or keep my mouth shut, and let you and Karl post more often.
(in reality "grandstanding" was not aimed at you Kevin, not remotely) Now i'll just shut up and see what happens- pretending everything will be ok.
David
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I had asked for comments from those that use Ed's knives to compare them to other knives and steel, but I didn't get a response?
Do you use yours David?
Peter
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Good question. And as a follow-up, do you own / use knives by any other makers such as to be in a position to make comparisons?
Roger
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The whole point of the thread is that it is the responsability of makers to test, and know exactly what they are selling through actually testing their knives.
If a knife is art and no nore, there is no shame to be honest and say so, if a knife will snap at 10 foot pounds of lateral torque, the maker should know and tell the client.
If you care, ask and the maker should be able to tell you. The maker is the only one who is in a position to know what you are buying, his honesty comes through dedication to what he makes and honesty with his client.
If the you the client do not care - don't ask.
The only way a maker can know the capability of his knives is to test a representative sample to absolute destruction.
If a knife is art and no nore, there is no shame to be honest and say so, if a knife will snap at 10 foot pounds of lateral torque, the maker should know and tell the client.
If you care, ask and the maker should be able to tell you. The maker is the only one who is in a position to know what you are buying, his honesty comes through dedication to what he makes and honesty with his client.
If the you the client do not care - don't ask.
The only way a maker can know the capability of his knives is to test a representative sample to absolute destruction.
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