Thoughts and questions on recent 110 blade play posts.

[garddogg56]

OK,I followed that post and was amused.If you treat a tool as it was intended it should serve you well.Remember a folding HUNTER has a pin in a brass bolster (that is asking for trouble) but it is replacing a fixed blade.I for one have had a .112 since 1974 and is a Tool for me to strip wires,shape stress-cones and she has reamed pipe (NOT RECOMENDED) but that knife has served me VERY WELL for over 40 years...thats my story and I'm sticking to it..my sumerization is it's one hell of a knife PS I've skun a few deer also. SO PLEASE DON'T CALL ME A LIAR THIS IS ONLY MY OPPINION

 

[graham_s]

I like my 110, in my opinion it is one of those knives that every man should own at least once in his lifetime.
It's a classic, in fact is go as far as to say it's the classic.
Ask someone to draw a picture of a lock knife, they'll draw a 110. Much the same as if you ask someone to draw an electric guitar, they'll draw a strat.
That said, the grinds on mine are a little off, so when closed the tip of the blade is not covered by the handle.
Not a problem as its in the belt pouch when not in use, but annoying nine the less.
There is also a little blade play, but not enough to be annoying.
I love my 110, it gets a lot of use.

 

[Mr. Tettnanger]

Thanks for posting the pictures Jill!

That looks like a real nice one! It makes me want to pick one up.*








*I need another knife like I need a hole in my head! That is a real beauty though! Tempting......very tempting!

 

[DeSotoSky]

Easy 1 minute fix, take a little off the bump just below the choil, that is what controls seating depth. Just a little, it doesn't take much.

 

[TAH]

Remember a folding HUNTER has a pin in a brass bolster (that is asking for trouble)

This kind of goes back to my original question. I have read over and over on this forum and other forums how 110s from the 70s still lock up tight in all directions after years of hard use and even borderline abuse. In 1973, I was 12 years old when I received my 112. As you can imagine, at that age, I put that knife through all kinds of irresponsible childhood non-sense and flicked it open hundreds and hundreds of times - hey, 70s kids were more cool than any other generation. I have continued to use that knife for over 40 years. Today, the blade still locks tight in all directions, which is quite impressive to me knowing what it's been through.

The point is, over the years, nothing has changed in the design/construction of these knives. It's still "a pin in a brass bolster", which makes me question is it really "asking for trouble"? There is too much evidence that supports the "pin in brass" design can take years of hard use and still remain tight, but I do wonder why there seems to be more reports of early blade play (under normal use) on today's knives than there are with 70s knives. So again, were these knives assembled differently back in the 70s? Perhaps more hand assembly? I don't understand why there is this perception that 70s knives have better lock up and less likeliness of blade play than today's knives. To my knowledge, both vintages are/were basically made the same way and today's knives have the advantage of modern technology and extreme tolerances.

 

[Ribeyeguy]

Maybe more attention to detail or 1 on 1 was the way back in the 70's, and of course less technology. There were also alot less models to choose from so it's possible that there was more time dedicated to each knife. I could be wrong though.

 

[jill jackson]

I've heard of older model 110 Bucks with blade play, I've seen other brands with pinned blades have it as well. I really can't see how a simple pin would keep from developing play, no matter how it's peened in. If enough force is applied repeatedly. But you get reports some never do.

 

[gedlicks]

In 1975 the retail of the Buck 110 was $22.00 and the average yearly income was $10,394 while in 2012 the 110 retailed for $69.00 and the average yearly income was $49,486. While the income has risen 475% the 110 has only risen 313%. By those standards the 110 in 2012 should have retailed at $104.50 and the cost of running a business has risen to even a much higher cost than in 1975. Are we willing to accept a 110 that maybe is a bit better that would cost us quite a bit more and most likely would end up in lower sales. Buck not only sells the 110 below the price they sold it in 1975 but has taken on much more expense in what it costs now to run a business.

Given these numbers I don't see how we as consumers can compare the ones made in 1975 with the ones made today however Buck has been doing it it in my opinion.

I think taking all this into consideration the standard production Buck 110 is one of the best user knives for the price and Buck has done very well in both cost and quality.

Not very many products today can compare to the way they were built in 1975 and still be competitive. Buck has though and we seem to keep expecting them to do so.

We have as consumers also became more critical in all aspects. I doubt there were very many complaints in 1975 over blade centering.

I doubt also if in 1975 anyone in Florida ever heard about the consumer in California that had a problem with their 110. Today we can hear from consumers around the world in seconds when there is a problem.

 

[TAH]

I've heard of older model 110 Bucks with blade play...

For the record, I don’t believe that all older 110s (and 112s for that matter) have no blade play. However, because of their age, they do provide long term performance measures from seeing years of use. In other words, if the pin in the brass bolster design is truly "asking for trouble", after 40 years, you would think that all 110s and 112s, that have seen regular use, would have significant blade play by now.

But you get reports some never do.

Exactly, why is that?

 

[TAH]

We have as consumers also became more critical in all aspects. I doubt there were very many complaints in 1975 over blade centering.

I agree. I never understood this complaint. Doesn't bother me at all - unless the blade is rubbing on the liner of course.

 

[jill jackson]

My Dad used a Schrade LB7 for years to field dress deer. He finally lost it but it had a lot of use. I asked him if it had any issues, like blade play and he said he never even noticed. I guess as long as the blade was fairly tight, back then people didn't notice, so much. Today everything is different, there's a lot more locking folders to choose from. People notice things a lot more too. But, that doesn't answer your question as to why some older 110 Bucks never do develop play. I don't have any idea on that.

 

[jill jackson]

I also picked up two LB7 Schrade USA off eBay last year. They are both barely used and extremely tight. My new Buck is sleeker, smoother opening, just as tight and gives an overall feeling of being more refined. It even feels better in hand.

 

[TAH]

My Dad used a Schrade LB7 for years to field dress deer. He finally lost it but it had a lot of use. I asked him if it had any issues, like blade play and he said he never even noticed. I guess as long as the blade was fairly tight, back then people didn't notice, so much.

I'm sure you're correct, Jill. I guess we notice more now because we have the internet and we look for little things (good and bad) to discuss with like-minded people.

 

[TAH]

I also picked up two LB7 Schrade USA off eBay last year. They are both barely used and extremely tight. My new Buck is sleeker, smoother opening, just as tight and gives an overall feeling of being more refined. It even feels better in hand.

Sounds like you have some nice lockblades in your collection. Buck really nailed the 110 ergonomics, yet kept the knife very stylish.

 

[pinnah]

This kind of goes back to my original question. I have read over and over on this forum and other forums how 110s from the 70s still lock up tight in all directions after years of hard use and even borderline abuse. In 1973, I was 12 years old when I received my 112. As you can imagine, at that age, I put that knife through all kinds of irresponsible childhood non-sense and flicked it open hundreds and hundreds of times - hey, 70s kids were more cool than any other generation. I have continued to use that knife for over 40 years. Today, the blade still locks tight in all directions, which is quite impressive to me knowing what it's been through.

The point is, over the years, nothing has changed in the design/construction of these knives. It's still "a pin in a brass bolster", which makes me question is it really "asking for trouble"? There is too much evidence that supports the "pin in brass" design can take years of hard use and still remain tight, but I do wonder why there seems to be more reports of early blade play (under normal use) on today's knives than there are with 70s knives. So again, were these knives assembled differently back in the 70s? Perhaps more hand assembly? I don't understand why there is this perception that 70s knives have better lock up and less likeliness of blade play than today's knives. To my knowledge, both vintages are/were basically made the same way and today's knives have the advantage of modern technology and extreme tolerances.

TAH,

My understanding based on what I've read by knife mechanics who've posted here and in other forums is that there are 2 differences between the current knives and those of the 70s/dot era.

The first is the move from a simple pin to a pin and bushing assembly where the blade rides on a soft but smooth bronze bushing. (I'm a little bit familiar with bronze bushings from working on old bikes where you sometimes see them in brake caliper pivots). The issue as I've heard knife mechanics describe it is that the bronze can deform under hard cutting, which introduces play. This is consistent with what I've seen on bike brakes.

The second is the use of fine blanking to create blades and lockbars.

As I understand it, fine blanking introduces small amounts of deformation along the cut edges. Typically these deformations are very small but my understanding (somebody can correct me if I'm wrong) it still isn't as precise as the hand finishing that was needed with 440C blades. As I understand it, 440C isn't suited for fine blanking but 420HC is (and steels like Sandvik 12C27 are). This is to say, fine blanking and 420HC make a more affordable knife than 440C and hand finishing does but may introduce a bit more production variance.

FWIW, I don't believe for a nano-second that all knives made back in the 440C days were great. I think there is some mechanical "survival of the fittest" going on in which the knives that have survived from that era were the strongest. Knives are an interest for me but vintage lightweight bikes are a passion and we see this in spades among vintage hand brazed Cr-Mo frames from the 70s. In the mid 80s, robotics got good enough to braze Cr-Mo without wrecking the temper and purists used to debate whether the machine brazed frames were as good. Impossible to say for sure because the poorly brazed handmade frames all broke early and often and simply aren't around, just as sloppy Bucks from the 70s were either discarded or fixed by Buck by now.

This said, I've had much better luck buying used pre-420HC Bucks than I've had with new 420HC Bucks in terms of blade play issues.

Lastly, with regard to lateral play, no flat peened knife like the 110 will take the lateral abuse that other designs will take. I have a buddy who on a bet regularly opens paint cans with an Opinel, which has a very different peened pin. He's finally busted blade but he's never gotten the blade to loosen up. I'm not advocating this, btw. Just noting that flush peened construction just can't do that. But note, the 110 is a hunting knife, not a folding pry bar. It's fine for what it's designed for.

 

[tiguy7]

If you use a bronze or stainless steel bushing around which the 110 blade can pivot, it stands to reason that squeezing the bushing between the between the bolsters will immobilize the bushing and control blade play to the extent that the bushing thickness is slightly larger than the blade thickness. These dimensions can be measured with a digital caliper. If no burrs are present, a differential of 2/1000ths of an inch between the the bushing thickness and the blade thickness will yield a blade free of play.
A pin cannot guarantee that the bushing will stay compressed between the bolsters. Therefore a screw is needed to squeeze the bolsters together to immobilize the bushing. In the Buck 186 Titan, a screw is incorporated in the pivot design. In other 110 based knives, a #5X40TPI Helicoil can be inserted in the R/H scale. A #5 counterbore, used on the L/H scale, can allow the #5 cap screw to lie flush with the scale.
You can fine tune the width of the bushing with a piece of sandpaper to get the best combination of ease of opening and lack of blade play.

 

[dogstar]

Of all the folks who had a beef with the 110, that I've read on BF, they participated in the following activities: prying, spine whacking, and batonning.

 

[jill jackson]

Of all the folks who had a beef with the 110, that I've read on BF, they participated in the following activities: prying, spine whacking, and batonning.

The one I had that became loose in four directions within fifteen minutes, was not abused at all. The need to make anyone out to be some moron that has had an issue with the 110, just comes across as not wanting to admit a knife can have problems. Buck seems to admit it and they have stated they welcome all input, not just favorable in the interest of improvement.

 

[pinnah]

Of all the folks who had a beef with the 110, that I've read on BF, they participated in the following activities: prying, spine whacking, and batonning.

This isn't true!

The Bucks and other lockbacks that have had vertical play all developed it from hard straight cutting, like cutting brush. If the alignment between the blade and lockbar isn't just-so, the force causes the lock bar to lift; something you can feel if you cut with your thumb on the back of the knife. Also, several knife mechanics who have posted in this forum prior have noted that over time, some locckbacks develop play if the lockbar pivot wears under the strain of hard cutting.

I would never pry or batton with a traditional lockbar. It's just asking for trouble, imo.

I have pried and battoned with my Opinels. A part of that was me, an engineer, wanting to see if I could force the Opinel to fail. They are cheap and crude and they offend me in that way. To my surprise and chagrin, the design has proven to be able to withstand that sort of abuse. But then, it's a farming knife and the 110 is a hunting knife. I've concluded that the lockback is fine for hunting and kitchen use and fine for EDC if you avoid harder cutting tasks.

My sense is that some of the complaints *are*, as you suggest, associated with the culture of hard use of knives. Knives like the 110 do best when used, as hunting knives imo and not when pushed beyond that. I EDC my Buck 500 regularly and love the knife. It's an older script version from the 440C days. Locks up tight as a drum, as does my 2 dot 110. But, I don't push them hard.

 

[buckman110]

Of all the folks who had a beef with the 110, that I've read on BF, they participated in the following activities: prying, spine whacking, and batonning.

Thank you! That right there sums it up, how many threads has this subject gone through lately? There are a few on here that just keep repeating themselves..... Come on people. Use "ANY" tool as its intended purpose and it will provide years of service.