Thumb Holes in Knives of Alaska

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Holy cow...what have I done :-0. I just got back to this site and my thread is on page four already. Sorry guys...I wasn't looking to start any controversy... The hole isn't exactly a perfect round circle from the looks of my catalog. I sure wish somebody could get a picture of the new KOA folders posted here...I think that would help. Sorry I can't find any on line other than those pictured in the new products 2007 catalog I received in the mail from KOA.
 
Excellent use of smoke and mirrors Boats. Problem is, that's all it is, just another way for those who feel the need to justify their decision to purchase something that contains stolen IP.

Pray tell, what patent or patents does my 2005 PT Cruiser violate? Whose copyrighted material does it use without permission? What trademark of another company does it use without permission? Can you cite one specific way it violates anyones IP rights?

Same questions on your Microsoft analogy. Granted, Microsoft has done everything within its power to stifle competition, but whose IP have they actually stolen? There's a major difference from withholding proprietary information that may be of benefit to your competition and stealing information from them. There's a major difference between building something that accomplishes the same end by different means, and building an exact replica. Same question again, can you cite one specific case where Microsoft actually violated someones IP rights?

Spyderco's patent that covered all manner an shapes of "depressions" usable for one hand opening with the thumb has expired. Anyone, and everyone is now free to use that concept. I don't think anyone here has any problem with Chris Reeves' use of a thumb depression on the Mnandi, I know I do not. I don't think anyone here has problems with companies like Strider, Victorinox, and Cold Steel using oval, eliptical or other shapes of opening holes, again I certainly don't. I don't think there is a legitimate objection to someone using a round hole of any size as a cosmetic feature, or to provide a grip option, on a fixed blade knife. I don't think there is a legitimate objection to someone using a group of small, non-functional, round holes as their "mark" or part of their "mark".

I believe the only thing most of us take issue with is the decision by Benchmade and others to usurp the round hole opening device. Their decision to switch from an oval hole which did not violate Spyderco's trademark, to a round one which did, is what I, and a number of others find unethical and reprehensible.

I have not seen the KOA folders in question, and the original poster never actually said the thumb hole openers they are using are round or give the appearance of being round. If they're not, that's one thing, if they are, then KOA is as bad as Benchmade.
 
It seems BM first used the Spyderhole on a number of their new knives as Vex, 550 HG and Dejavus without permission. And it looks like that the agreement took place afterwards (under constraint) and that Sal is not happy with it all. BM gives Spyderco no credit for the Spyderhole, they call it round hole opener or so, what shows at least to me that they probably also don´t pay for using it. Perhaps BM felt compelled to go the dishonorable way due to bad sales.

Best wishes,
JB
 
All speculation, and opinions.

You can't have it both ways.

If opinions are not acceptable about trademarks, then they are not acceptable about the "agreement" reached.

If you have no knowledge of the agreement then don't make assumptions.
 
darthsoaker said:
They "came to an agreement" after Benchmade started using the hole again.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I'm no Benchmade fan but we don't know that. The agreement just wasn't made public until questioned but it was a confidential agreement so they probably wouldn't have been able to disclose early.
 
ClintB, as long as others deny over 7000 years of trademark practice or don´t at least try to explain on a reasonable legal basis why they doubt registered trademark rights, as long as they ignore a given example of a shared trademark or allowed use of it in another industry branch, as long as they think they have the right to criticize a honorable company for the use of their own capital and how they like to defend it, this long I will comment on the case as I like. The poor argumentation of the opposite party was busted in any point by facts. It really consisted of smoke and mirrors and not to forget speculations. Hence it´s absurd to tell me I would only speculate. It´s a fact that BM gives no credit for the Spyderhole, it´s a fact that Spyderco shows no happiness about it. This tells a story.

If my english wouldn´t be this bad I could tell you much more exactly what I mean like I could in german. On the other hand it probably wouldn´t be useful to argue with people about something that they are not able or not willing to understand. I hope this can be my last posting in this thread. For named reasons I don´t like to write anymore about it.

Best wishes,
JB
 
Personally, when I see a round hole on a knife, I think Spyderco. This goes for the Benchmade Skirmish, current Benchmades with the round hole, Jens Anso's knives with the round hole, etc. etc. This is the essence of a trademark - something that identifies a particular company's product. There is the bug and the Spyderco stamp on the blade, but there is no limit to how many trademarks you can have. Coke has the red and white label, the name, and the bottle shape. I don't think the trademark is overly broad, because other shapes are open for use as opening devices. Also, the trademark doesn't cover every round hole in a piece of steel.

The argument that most companies don't license their trademarks to direct competitors is interesting, and a good one. As noted above, I think of Spyderco when I see a round hole, though I think this would be a disincentive for reputable competitors (i.e. Benchmade) from using the hole. I think the Emerson Wave could be a counter example - Spyderco and Emerson do have some market overlap. Also, a trademark is a tangible asset. Some American knife companies (names escape me - Camillus? Schrade?, Bertram/Hen and Rooster) have gone through bankruptcy, had names/trademarks sold, and reemerged in production by a different company. If a trademark is an asset, you should be able to buy, sell, or lease it. With outsourced production the way it is, the difference between slapping a Nike swoosh or an Adidas trefoil on a sneaker would be minimal. I'm not saying I appreciate it - the trademark should represent the brand and the quality behind it - just that I accept trademark leasing as legally permissible. Plus "leasing" a trademark - under duress after an infringement has already occured - might be preferable to leaving a trademark undefended, thus open to anyone. I point to the case of Duncan Yo-Yo. They had the name Yo-Yo trademarked, even though it was in common usage for the wheel-shaped wooden toy (much like people blow their noses with kleenex, not necessarily Kleenex brand). They didn't defend their trademark rigorously, so it entered in to the common domain, the market was flooded with yo-yos, and the Yo-Yo company tanked. I'm not saying this is what happened, but Sal could've easily signed an agreement with Benchmade that, however unpalatable, was preferable to losing the hole through lax enforcement or losing the company in a bankrupting legal battle.

As for the KoA cleaver - I don't think the finger hole infringes on Spyderco's trademark, since it serves a completely different function, and has been filling it's niche for a while now. It doesn't look like a Spyderco to me, just like Busse's talon hole doesn't look like a Spyderco. Personally, I'm not a fan of the hole on the Spyderco fixed blades. It might provide an interesting attachment point for a lanyard, but otherwise detracts from the design, adds a point of weakness, makes production more complex, catches gunk, and doesn't really identify it as a Spyderco for me.
 
The Deacon said:
Excellent use of smoke and mirrors Boats. Problem is, that's all it is, just another way for those who feel the need to justify their decision to purchase something that contains stolen IP.

Pray tell, what patent or patents does my 2005 PT Cruiser violate? Whose copyrighted material does it use without permission? What trademark of another company does it use without permission? Can you cite one specific way it violates anyones IP rights?

Same questions on your Microsoft analogy. Granted, Microsoft has done everything within its power to stifle competition, but whose IP have they actually stolen? There's a major difference from withholding proprietary information that may be of benefit to your competition and stealing information from them. There's a major difference between building something that accomplishes the same end by different means, and building an exact replica. Same question again, can you cite one specific case where Microsoft actually violated someones IP rights?

Spyderco's patent that covered all manner an shapes of "depressions" usable for one hand opening with the thumb has expired. Anyone, and everyone is now free to use that concept. I don't think anyone here has any problem with Chris Reeves' use of a thumb depression on the Mnandi, I know I do not. I don't think anyone here has problems with companies like Strider, Victorinox, and Cold Steel using oval, eliptical or other shapes of opening holes, again I certainly don't. I don't think there is a legitimate objection to someone using a round hole of any size as a cosmetic feature, or to provide a grip option, on a fixed blade knife. I don't think there is a legitimate objection to someone using a group of small, non-functional, round holes as their "mark" or part of their "mark".

I believe the only thing most of us take issue with is the decision by Benchmade and others to usurp the round hole opening device. Their decision to switch from an oval hole which did not violate Spyderco's trademark, to a round one which did, is what I, and a number of others find unethical and reprehensible.

I have not seen the KOA folders in question, and the original poster never actually said the thumb hole openers they are using are round or give the appearance of being round. If they're not, that's one thing, if they are, then KOA is as bad as Benchmade.
Click to expand...

I've bit my tongue before reading your posts and your website about Benchmade "stealing" and I just can't anymore. I am an IP lawyer, this is what I do, I posted a detailed description in this topic http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429134 about this before and you sir have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you are so quick to accuse others of stealing how do you feel about slandering a company? You do it repeatedly here, on the spyderco forum, and on your website and yet you have no clue of what you are talking about. I find it sad- and I find it sad that people will go on and on about IP law when none of you even know what you are talking about. Do any of you have anything better to do than argue about things that you don't know about? If spyderco feels that someone is wronging them, fine, they can use their lawyers to do something, but I really don't get why those of you who are not even connected to the company care so much about this.
 
change it by 10% problem sloved, thats all ya have to do, for a hole to get this tech, is lol pretty funny, a mechanical broadhead is far more complex than a hole, and theres lots of them just all a little bit different, so let,s just make the spydi hole 10% smaller and 10% bigger, or i know, lets put a little countersunk groove, with four nice dremal notche's.. yea.... yea that will work
 
digitalrebelttu said:
but I really don't get why those of you who are not even connected to the company care so much about this.
Click to expand...

Unlike you during Strider Bashfest '07? Betcha 80% of your posts came during that period...
What was your connection or interest then? Why did you feel absolutely compelled to jump on that bandwagon? Plenty of people of have plenty of different interests here, so maybe you shouldn't knock others, eh?
 
digitalrebelttu,

I tried to email you but your email address at "Yahoo!" bounces back as a bad address.
 
flipe8 said:
Unlike you during Strider Bashfest '07? Betcha 80% of your posts came during that period...
What was your connection or interest then? Why did you feel absolutely compelled to jump on that bandwagon? Plenty of people of have plenty of different interests here, so maybe you shouldn't knock others, eh?
Click to expand...

So aren't you doing what you're telling me not to do?

But anyway, I see that in the other thread about this you were one of the "ip experts" who disappeared when I actually quoted what the current trademark and patent law is, so I'm not playing your game.
 
to those of you coming to Spyderco's defense, your loyalty and compassion is greatly appreciated. Spyderco's crew and I thank you.

Yes there is very little information. My apologies. I still feel that this argument will not bear fruit. As I mentioned, too many "opinions" and "too little knowledge".

It's especially important that it does not become ugly on a Spyderco forum. Respect is a sign of intelligence and maturity.


digitalrebelttu said:
If spyderco feels that someone is wronging them, fine, they can use their lawyers to do something, but I really don't get why those of you who are not even connected to the company care so much about this.
Click to expand...

Mr. Digitalrebelttu,

This situation is far more complicated than it might appear from the outside. You would really need history to have a meaningful deeper understanding.

As far as why care? That's more than just IP.

We can respect your position as an IP Lawyer. Spyderco is just a small company, but we have many patents and trademarks (90+). You can respect us as inventors / designers, right?

sal
 
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