Tidings and the return of Schatt and Morgan?

[Camillus]

I'm sorry, I got to "My point is that fit and finish are by no means a measure that should be used to judge a knife." and as that is objectively false, I really couldn't finish your narrative. I am not even sure how you could arrive at such a conclusion, really.

That’s because it wasn’t the conclusion. Read the whole post and you will find it there waiting for you to read and carefully reflect on.

 

[Quiet]

That’s because it wasn’t the conclusion. Read the whole post and you will find it there waiting for you to read and carefully reflect on.

Rather than address your post point by point, It's probably better to just agree to disagree at this juncture. As you aren't the only one with an understanding of "management philosophy", I can tell you that fit and finish is what primarily what drives a company's ability to demand a certain cost point for a knife, its reception with knife collectors, and overall how well a product will sell. Speaking only for myself (although the proof is in the pudding that my view drives the market), I personally won't buy a shoddily constructed, poorly finished knife with fitment or mechanical issues (like blade play) no matter what the design is, or who makes it, or what it cost, or how much like an old classic knife it looks like. If I'm spending hard earned money, I want a quality product. If you don't make a quality product, you aren't getting my business, simple as that. That's why none of the other things you mention matter as much as the quality of the product (and fit and finish is just about the number one indicator of that. It's called "Quality Control" for a reason). I mean, dealers had to give Queen knives away because they were embarrassed to sell them. If what you say is true, that shouldn't have been the case. It's a shame what happened to Queen, but that's the free market at work. Start making shoddy products and letting your QC slip, people are going to walk, and your revenue dries up.

I mean:

"Some people seem to have decided that because Queen struggled to make knives of consistent fit and finish for a few years, then that is a measure to judge the brand, and because that measure is used to judge Queen, then that is the measure that is used to judge all manufacturers. I am saying this is illogical and wrong."

It may seem "illogical and wrong" to you, but honestly, it seems to me that your opinion seems to do little more than give knife manufacturers a pass for doing bad work. If a company starts making shoddy product, I ABSOLUTELY will judge them for it, I mean, are you serious? Who makes the shoddy product? Who is at fault for releasing shoddy products onto the market? Was it me? Or was it (in this case) Queen? Your free hint is that it wasn't me.

Anyway, if these new S & M knives can avoid falling into that trap, I'll probably be in for a few. Like most people, I don't mind paying for a quality well-made product. However, also like most people, I won't pay good money for a poorly made, poorly finished knife that's just trying to cash in on peoples' nostalgia.

I'll be watching Mr. Cooper's efforts with interest.

 

[lutejones]

Hello guys,
First of all I wish very good luck to the people trying to get S&M going again.
On the other discussion I would argue that you’re not talking about the same thing,
mixing up quality control with fit & finish.

I’m with Camillus if his argument is that fit&finish should not be the only thing on a knife as it lately seems to be the case with this slipjoint niche market.

Victorinox is a great example of my point because their fit & finish is not the best by any means but they have a supreme QC system, their tolerances are minimal and every part of every knife is the same to some ridiculous thou number, achieving a consistency so good that when you buy one it functions exactly as expected.

In the world of American patterns, something similar happens with the Case of the 60’s-70’s, almost every one I had or saw have had some minor cosmetic flaw(fit & finish) that on today’s market could cause bad reputation or “not up to expectations” comments. The truth of the matter however is that they are perfectly tight and most useful tools that worked and work a treat. From the thinness of the blades and grinds perfectly matched with the intended use of the pattern, to the general satisfaction caused by the action of the springs. That’s again QC for me, you could buy blind and you’re almost certain that you were getting a perfectly useful cutting tool.

GEC on the other hand is working with different parameters, their fit&finish is incredible and a lot of their resources are invested on making sure the product is esthetically flawless, so their QC on the fit and finish processes is very good. But you pay for that on several forms
Price tag
Thicker grinds
Tighter action with more maintenance, if you cut a bunch of rip fruit and the joints get wet or you sweat a good amount with the knife in the pocket it binds the action quickly and you lose the springiness and gums the action. But a sweaty cabinet maker with to young fruit-devouring little monkeys is not their target customer, and they’re doing really great with their system. And I get to enjoy beautiful pictures and save money

anyway I really hope that the new S&M would be great knives and that they choose the right path for reaching the market

cheers
Thanks for this great forum and its politeness and cordiality as always

 

[SteveC]

I have seen more than a few GEC's with F&F issues lately. Does that mean that their QC is slipping as well as F&F ?

 

[JohnDF]

I can live with a few FnF issues... like minor gaps, sunken pins, slightly off-centered blades, slightly sunken springs, etc.
What I don't like are QC issues... like blade wobble, weak pulls and anemic snap, severe blade rub, unfinished pins, etc.

 

[r8shell]

I can live with a few FnF issues... like minor gaps, sunken pins, slightly off-centered blades, slightly sunken springs, etc.
What I don't like are QC issues... like blade wobble, weak pulls and anemic snap, severe blade rub, unfinished pins, etc.

I agree. I can live with cosmetic imperfections (depending on the price range) but functional, mechanical flaws are a problem.

 

[DavidABQ]

I would like to see a Copperhead pattern in their product lineup. A single blade Barlow would be nice too.

I don’t know what blade steel or steels Mr. Cooper is planning to use but I wouldn’t mind seeing his knives in D2 or possibly ATS-34/154CM.

Schatt & Morgan had a history of using ATS-34 so I would be nice see it again. I am partial to stainless steel and while D2 isn’t stainless, technically speaking, it does a pretty good job.

 

[Dadpool]

I can live with a few FnF issues... like minor gaps, sunken pins, slightly off-centered blades, slightly sunken springs, etc.
What I don't like are QC issues... like blade wobble, weak pulls and anemic snap, severe blade rub, unfinished pins, etc.

Well said! This is an important distinction.

In my eyes Queen tarnished its reputation in the years leading up to its closure by shipping substandard knives at premium prices. (My terrible experience with their warranty support may be an outlier.)

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I want to know that the current owner of the S&M mark is aware of that problem and knows how to avoid it. I'd feel the same way if, say, someone bought the Gerber name from Fiskars: It would be on them to prove that they're not just going to continue making the junk for which Gerber has become known.

 

[Danke42]

Fit and finish is the actual quality of the knife. How it looks and how it functions. Gaps or missing parts etc.

Quality Control is the company method of finding knives in their production line that are sub par and what they do about it. Do they just ship everything without checking because demand is high or do they weed knives that are less that ideal out of the supply chain.

 

[DavidABQ]

I am curious to know what other members would like to see as patterned, blade steels and handle material on the new Schatt & Morgan knives.

 

[r8shell]

Fit and finish is the actual quality of the knife. How it looks and how it functions. Gaps or missing parts etc.

Quality Control is the company method of finding knives in their production line that are sub par and what they do about it. Do they just ship everything without checking because demand is high or do they weed knives that are less that ideal out of the supply chain.

I think people start using these terms interchangeably, because they are linked. As in: "I just received this sub-par item. How did that happen? Doesn't someone check these when they go out the door?"

For instance: these two Queen linerlock Teardrops. One has better woodgrain than the other, and that's to be expected with natural materials.
The other one has a mangled looking liner. I think it looks like someone noticed that it didn't spring into position properly. Rather than tossing it, or rebuilding it, they took a pair of pliers and bent and twisted it into place. I can only speculate as to whether that happened during production, or if it's was "fixed" by someone in "quality control"

Sorry for the poor photos, they were taken a couple phone/cameras ago.

 

[JohnDF]

Maybe this will clear it up...

Fit and Finish issues... Some slight gaps etc, that don't effect the function of the knife, will slip through Quality Control and it doesn't bother me (price dependent).

Quality Control issues... These are knives that should have been pulled because of Fit and Finish issues that are glaring or effect the function of the knife.

 

[Dadpool]

I am curious to know what other members would like to see as patterned, blade steels and handle material on the new Schatt & Morgan knives.

Single-blade Barlows in a decent stainless steel, with wood and micarta covers, with a bolster stamp but no shield, in a variety of blade shapes. I suspect a lot of folks here are tired of Barlows, but I don't see a ton of options out there that fit that bill -- and there's certainly a market for Barlows in general. I currently own zero Barlows, despite it being my favorite pattern, because I can't find one like that which appeals to me.

I also have fond memories of my S&M Senator, and that smallish, equal-end, hidden-tang (or nearly hidden) sort of pattern is one I'd love to see more of. Longer than a Peanut, slimmer than a Stockman.

 

[Danke42]

I think people start using these terms interchangeably, because they are linked. As in: "I just received this sub-par item. How did that happen? Doesn't someone check these when they go out the door?"

For instance: these two Queen linerlock Teardrops. One has better woodgrain than the other, and that's to be expected with natural materials.
The other one has a mangled looking liner. I think it looks like someone noticed that it didn't spring into position properly. Rather than tossing it, or rebuilding it, they took a pair of pliers and bent and twisted it into place. I can only speculate as to whether that happened during production, or if it's was "fixed" by someone in "quality control"

Sorry for the poor photos, they were taken a couple phone/cameras ago.

Well folks shouldn't confuse those terms especially if they're trying to speak from expertise.

They can call a frog a duck all they want and a frog will swim in the same pond as a duck and they both lay eggs but the frog will never flap it's wings and fly away.

 

[btb01]

I'm never positive if linking to other forums is allowed here, so instead I'll quote this AAPK post by (AFAIK) the owner of Cooper Cutlery:

"My name is Gilbert Cooper, most of you don't know me. I was the Guy at the Queen Knife Auction That bought those ' OLD' Machines from the 1930's LOL. We also purchased most of the Knives, Stock, etc. about 95% of the Auction. I was there on Behalf of Bluegrass on Some Things, Like Winchester Dies that they owned and had to buy back to keep them, Because much of their tooling that they owned was in the plant at the time of Closing.

The Main reason I was there was because I personally believe that some of the Best Knives made in our great Country the Good old U.S.A. was made by Queen Cutlery on those Old Machines. I went there with a dream to buy the Trademarks and the Machines to Restart the Machines here in Southern Ohio In Winchester, Ohio. Well my dream is about to come true. The first Schatt & Morgans will be made in Winchester, Ohio in mid 2020 as it takes time to Build and Move everything with Riggers etc. We will start slow, But I believe those Machines will once again be Making Knives, You are right when you said they are old. But Schatt and Morgan was once known as the best knife Money could buy. We will move forward with that vision. Please Wish me luck, As I need it."

Mr. Cooper was the main buyer at the bankruptcy auction. he bought most of the machinery and tooling. He also bought the 3 trademarks in a separate auction (Queen, Queen City, and Schatt & Morgan). He was somehow affiliated with Bluegrass Cutlery, which also owns the Winchester name. In talking with Mr. Cooper and his son, their goal was to get the S&M brand back up and running, after they moved everything to their new factory in southern Ohio. In doing so, they ended up needed additional funds, and so they sold the Queen and Queen City names to SMKW so that they could get everything set up and running. Their goal is to make S&M and Winchester knives, 100% made in the USA, using all the original old Queen machinery and tooling.

I guess my biggest question is, who will actually be making these knives? I don’t know anything at all about Mr. Cooper (is he a cutler?) or Bluegrass knives. I see they have a lot of Winchester branded knives on their website, many of which seem pretty pricey. Do they make these knives themselves? Are they currently producing knives, or are these new-old-stock? Are there experienced cutlers in Winchester, Ohio?

The knives don’t make themselves, nor do the machines make the knives. You could turn me loose in the GEC factory, and I guarantee that no one would be willing to pay even Rough Rider prices for what I would turn out.

I’m looking forward to seeing these new Schatt & Morgans, but I certainly have some reservations.

GEC on the other hand is working with different parameters, their fit&finish is incredible and a lot of their resources are invested on making sure the product is esthetically flawless, so their QC on the fit and finish processes is very good. But you pay for that on several forms
Price tag
Thicker grinds
…

I’d be interested to hear which GEC models you found to have thick grinds? I’ve generally found their blades to be ground as thin or thinner than most other brands of traditional knives I’ve owned (except maybe Opinel ).

 

[Arathol]

Quality control is when you establish standards of production and monitor how closely the product adheres to those standards.
Fit and finish is how high the level of standards you have set for production are.
For example, GM has good quality control in their automobile plants, but Rolls Royce has far better fit and finish.

 

[Will Power]

You get a thread about a potentially interesting revival of a defunct brand by an entrepreneur who claims at least, to be interested in producing quality American knives.

But a lot of people start bickering over terminology or definitions

If a knife comes out of a factory with faults and it costs a fair bit I don't like it, whatever its past or 'heritage.' I know a quality knife when I handle one, I would've thought most other people here would be similarly well equipped to make those judgements too- from experience.

Whatever, I'm waiting to see what they produce, if I'm interested in it and whether I can get hold of it and can afford it. Then is the time to start speculating about the ramifications of QC or F&F et al. once you have something concrete to evaluate.

 

[JohnDF]

people start bickering over terminology or definitions

Welcome to the Porch, let me introduce you to everybody.
By the way, there's quite a bit of difference between "bickering" and "discussing" terminology.
See what I did there?

 

[Don W]

This is great news! I wish Mr Cooper much success. I look forward to buying a shiny new Schatt and Morgan.

 

[Misplaced Hillbilly]

Ok I'm making a decree, henceforth we shall not pass judgment upon knives yet to be based upon knives that once were that are being produced by someone that is not the original manufacturer of said knives so shouldn't carry the burden of the previous manufacturers mistakes and or neglect to produce a product to a standard they had previously attained but failed to continue into the death throws of the parent company that produced the aforementioned knives while holding rights to the name and branding of said knives. We shall then forthwith to only discuss which patterns and materials we'd hope to see manufactured by the new holders of the aforementioned names and branding and shall hold our opinions on the quality of said knives until the manufacturer has time to actually build the damn things and some of us have had enough of them in hand to determine the quality thereof and then and only then we will nit pick the living hell outta them and let the newly formed company stand or fall on its OWN merits.