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Tidings and the return of Schatt and Morgan?
- Thread starter mrknife
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Rookie82
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Just cause some of the machines are WW2 era doesn't mean they all are. I was at the bankruptcy auction, some of the machines were fairly new, probably year 2000 or newer. And there were multiples of most every machine. Probably 20 grinders, a dozen buffers, etc. Remember, in the 40's and 50's Queen had over 100 employees working in that factory. And Mr. Cooper bought everything there, to the point where most people didn't even bother bidding against him. He got inventory, sheet stock, machines, maintenance equipment, lunchroom chairs, clocks off the wall, and probably the kitchen sink.
cudgee
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That formula is the reason I don't own any GEC knives. If the new Schatt and Morgan uses that formula, I probably won't own any of their knives either. I'm not interested in fighting to buy a knife, with a purposely created shortage.
O.B.
Jiki
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You won't have to fight in the beginning, just ask all the GEC old timers about "the good old days".
cudgee
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. There are a lot of people out there who have given up on GEC because they are virtually unobtainable, these may be the next hot ticket "lolly scramble" knife. It will all depend on their quality of course, but the first release will be eagerly anticipated and quite possibly hard to purchase. If they are of a good quality, they may also become very hard to get. It is all down to supply and demand, but if they are really good knives, USA made and depending on price, it is possible there will not be enough to go around depending on how many of each are produced. I feel the" good old days" of anything well made in USA and not mass produced in large numbers may well be over, at least for the time being. I hope i'm wrong, but i am eagerly awaiting the arrival of these knives as are many by reading this thread, GEC are just out of the question for me, i cannot compete in the scramble to get them.
Jiki
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Yes you're most likely correct.
knifeswapper
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A problem for one is a solution for the other. If a new factory opened up and worked 30 people 40 hours a week making knives and still couldn't keep up with the demand for their product - they probably would not consider that a bad thing. And even if they did - what is the solution? To outsource? To choose quantity over quality? To hire people with no experience and pull the experienced employees away from their job to teach for a couple months at a time?
It is a bit curious to me that the GEC factory has changed the recipe very little since they were struggling to make payroll a few short years ago. The only difference is that the product brought buyers; and the buyers got the attention of the larger retailers - now all those new buyers are aggravated that there are more buyers than product many times. And the larger retailers have taken capacity away from the original dealers; thus putting them in a bind as well. It is a bit like when traffic is going down from two lanes to one and someone rushes up in front of you to get in at the last minute - then gets aggravated when someone else does the same to them.
It is a complex problem. And at the source of it is a company bucking the trend and putting out a quality product that they cannot make enough of on their 100 year old equipment. I think if Mr. Cooper could mimic the disastrous failure (in the eyes of the customers wanting all knives sitting on shelves at every dealer); he would be a booming success (by all other accounting).
It is a bit curious to me that the GEC factory has changed the recipe very little since they were struggling to make payroll a few short years ago. The only difference is that the product brought buyers; and the buyers got the attention of the larger retailers - now all those new buyers are aggravated that there are more buyers than product many times. And the larger retailers have taken capacity away from the original dealers; thus putting them in a bind as well. It is a bit like when traffic is going down from two lanes to one and someone rushes up in front of you to get in at the last minute - then gets aggravated when someone else does the same to them.
It is a complex problem. And at the source of it is a company bucking the trend and putting out a quality product that they cannot make enough of on their 100 year old equipment. I think if Mr. Cooper could mimic the disastrous failure (in the eyes of the customers wanting all knives sitting on shelves at every dealer); he would be a booming success (by all other accounting).
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Small company, not that many employees, each knife basically made by hand. I think it's just reality that creates the shortage, not some Machiavellian marketing strategy by Bill Howard.
black mamba
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I would like to see the use of a razor blade steel, something like 13c26, 12c27, AEB-L. These should give excellent results for a pocket knife, without being as hard on the tooling as higher carbide stainless steels like 440C, ATS34, etc.
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Rumors? What of this? Did some one buy the name again?
This should be very good news to all lovers of traditional knives. If Mr. Cooper can help get Mr. Morgan's Schatt together, then we all will have more opportunities to acquire well-made American hand-crafted knives. Everybody wins! I'd like to start with the one in the promotional pic.
r8shell
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I agree. I haven't been too impressed with Bear & Son, and Utica doesn't seem to be making traditionals any more. Case is sitting in a wide space between Rough Ryder and GEC just waiting for some competition. (Boker fits that bill, but isn't US made, if that's an issue)
Agreed!
HEMI 49
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Because stainless steel work hardens as it is being punched, cut, drilled, etc. a perfect solution to the strain on old punch presses and die sets is laser cutting..... I took a hypothetical 8" cut path on .120" thick stainless sheet (Stock for blades).... Depending on various parameters the cut rate is between 100" to ~300" per minute.... So on average you should be able to laser cut 25 blades per minute..... The other operations are grinding, sanding and small hole drilling which shouldn't be strenuous on the equipment......
Even at 10 blades a minute, the laser eliminates having die sets made and maintained.... Also it is a hands off operation so the operator can be doing something else while the laser works......
Even at 10 blades a minute, the laser eliminates having die sets made and maintained.... Also it is a hands off operation so the operator can be doing something else while the laser works......
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Forgive me as I'm not intimately familiar with the S&M history but were they predominantly 1095?
The number of folks I've seen here on the Porch rail against stainless and how inferior it is and how "non traditional" it is, combined with GEC's overwhelming use of 1095 makes me wonder why Mr. Cooper would not use it. Super simple steel to process and apparently the "real" traditional people crave it. Why buy decades old equipment and then change the steel? Especially when GEC says it is too hard on their equipment. An assertion I still don't understand. I get tool and die wear if that is what they mean. Not questioning it, just saying I don't understand what that means.
I have no idea what Mr. Cooper's vision is or his execution plan, but if he's buying up all that stuff, then it suggests to me, that in terms of manufacturing, he's trying to replicate whatever S&M was at it's peak. Old equipment or not, that had to be a sizable investment. If he wanted to inject something truly new into the market, why not start small and buy newer stuff?
I know this will ruffle many feathers, but I think the entire GEC thing is 80% marketing and 20% quality. Sure, if the quality wasn't there, and I fully acknowledge it is, then the rest couldn't happen, but he's created the market. It isn't unlike Spyderco sprint or exclusive runs only that's all GEC really does.
Why would Mr. Cooper try to compete with that? Why not pick a few patterns in the ole tried-and-true carbon steel, execute them well at reasonable prices and see how the market reacts? Get your sea legs, pay off the investments, and see where the tides take you.
Just my rambling thoughts...
The number of folks I've seen here on the Porch rail against stainless and how inferior it is and how "non traditional" it is, combined with GEC's overwhelming use of 1095 makes me wonder why Mr. Cooper would not use it. Super simple steel to process and apparently the "real" traditional people crave it. Why buy decades old equipment and then change the steel? Especially when GEC says it is too hard on their equipment. An assertion I still don't understand. I get tool and die wear if that is what they mean. Not questioning it, just saying I don't understand what that means.
I have no idea what Mr. Cooper's vision is or his execution plan, but if he's buying up all that stuff, then it suggests to me, that in terms of manufacturing, he's trying to replicate whatever S&M was at it's peak. Old equipment or not, that had to be a sizable investment. If he wanted to inject something truly new into the market, why not start small and buy newer stuff?
I know this will ruffle many feathers, but I think the entire GEC thing is 80% marketing and 20% quality. Sure, if the quality wasn't there, and I fully acknowledge it is, then the rest couldn't happen, but he's created the market. It isn't unlike Spyderco sprint or exclusive runs only that's all GEC really does.
Why would Mr. Cooper try to compete with that? Why not pick a few patterns in the ole tried-and-true carbon steel, execute them well at reasonable prices and see how the market reacts? Get your sea legs, pay off the investments, and see where the tides take you.
Just my rambling thoughts...
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Queen used 440C (called Queen steel) for many years, D2 heated by Peters for awhile, ATS34 and 420HC (I think) for S&M. There was always some 1095 too. Daniels maybe did some 1095 for S&M.
The proof GEC is about marketing is in their new useless BS knife with a beard comb and Vienna sausage fork...hipsters delight
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The truth is nobody but Mr. Cooper knows what his vision and plan is, and even "if" he will be able to get this venture up and running. It would be nice to see a rebirth of the Schatt and Morgan branding, but in what form that happens is just crystal ball gazing at this point. We saw how the rebirth of Canal Street Co-op played out...
It makes me wonder how the first runs will come to market? Do they have a plan for distribution and how large will the runs be?
It makes me wonder how the first runs will come to market? Do they have a plan for distribution and how large will the runs be?
cudgee
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Very good point.