Time required to make a knife and the "how much" question.

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Dmitry.M

Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
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Could you share some thougts on my calculations please?

Here how it works for me

For the regular steel knife:
1. Cut the piece of stee, forge it to shape, grind, heat treat - 8 hours.
2. Hand finish the blade with 220-320-400-600-800 grit snadpaper - 4 hours at least.
3. Cut, shape and fit the guard - 2 hours.
4. Cut, shape and fit the handle+blade+guard - 4 hours at least.
5. Vacuum treat the handle, final assembly, final polishing, sharpening - 2 hours at least.

Total 20 hours.
Average cost of materials and consumables $50

2. For the WOOTZ steel knife.
1. Smelt the ore and make a bloom - 8 hours at least
2. prepare the bloomery iron for the crucible melt - 2 hours
3. Melt the bloomery iron to make an ingot (50% chance to get no ingot) - 6 hours
4. Forge the ingot into the bar (50% chance that it will crack or delaminate) - 20-30 hours
5. Forge the blade from the bar, shape it, heat treat it - 8 hours
6. Hand finish the blade with 220-320-400-600-800 grit snadpaper - 4 hours at least.
7. Cut, shape and fit the guard - 2 hours.
8. Cut, shape and fit the handle+blade+guard - 4 hours at least.
9. Vacuum treat the handle, final assembly, final polishing, sharpening - 2 hours at least.

Total 56-66 hours
Cost of materials and consumables at least $150

Engraving:
1. Design drawing, computer processing, transfer on the item - at least 2 hours
2. Engraving - at least 2 hours for the very basic design

Total 4 hours for the very basic design and ~1sq.inch
Cost of materials and consumables $5

Sheath:
Make a template, cut the leather, glue and sew it by hand - 2 hours
Draw the design, transfer it on the item, tool it, finish the sheath - 4 hours

Total time 6 hours.
Cost of materials and consumables $15 at least

Average cost $75

Now let's see what we end up with.

Basic knife will be (20 hours * $10/hour)+$50(materials)+75(sheath)=$325 at least!
Wootz knife will be (56 hours*$10/hour)+$50(materials)+75(sheath)=$675 at least!(at least $750 realisticaly)

Each additional sq. inch of engraving will add at least $45 to the item.
I did not count the sales expences and time. And I charge only $10/hour.

Is that unreasonable? Where I loose? How to improve?
 
Ten dollars an hour is a horrible rate to swallow. By charging that you are killing the craft. Thats what they pay non English speaking painters assistants.
 
If you are buying and reselling materials, you should always try to sell at a profit to cover the expenses of any material issues that come up. If it is $50 worth of materials, $75-$100 should get added to the price, as there is a cost/risk associated with handling and buying materials. You are also running a business, not just earning a wage. You need to put some of the money you make back into the business for growth, tools, tooling, consumables, upgrades etc, and at the same time also make a wage that is adequate to you.
 
Don't forget to factor in overhead and operational costs... rent/mortgage, electricity, gas, cooling costs, storage, cleaning, and so on. Likewise, wear and tear on tools/equipment needs to be condidered. Travel costs or shipping costs associated with supplies has to be factored in.

It's not just time.
 
I think you have too much time into forging and grinding. I also think that most steels won't require that much time in hand-sanding unless you're doing the majority of cleanup by hand. You should be able to cut several hours off of your time investment in these two areas. I don't forge blades, but I recently had some instruction on it and three people managed to forge out six blades and two coat hooks in a day, including teaching me how to swing a hammer. That was all done basically one person at a time.

I also don't count heat treating time into my knives, just assign it a fixed cost. With proper equipment it's a very low time-cost operation.

Overall, I think your other time commitments are high as well. Perhaps you need to do some of this work in batch or source materials that require less work. What is your vacuum treating? Stabilizing?
 
It's almost impossible to break this down minute-by-minute like a factory would. Some makers take 10-minutes on the grinder with a 400-grit belt and call that a satin finish; some spend a couple hours by hand and get a true, super-clean 400-grit finish that looks incredible. Then again, some makers knock a rough hollow grind on an old file, slap some diamondwood scales on it, round over the edges and sell it for $200, after 2-3 hours work.

The good news is, apparently my knives are worth at least $1000 each based on the labor involved :D
 
It is tough Dmitry...
I have forged out 8 blades in a day and other times, spent 5hours at the anvil for one... where does a measured method fit into that? Same with grinding... sometimes I hog a pound of steel off a bar, yet not even touch another to the grinder. Because my time and focus was all over the place I had to come up with a different method of pricing. I considered what other makers are getting for their blades, what I needed to make, what the customer was willing to pay, the intended use of the knife...... and sooooo many other variables. I lost money on some and gained on others. In the end, I made the knives I wanted to make and was confident in the prices I charged. After 2yrs of knifemaking, I revisited my old sales and divided price by length in inches. I was surprized to find that there was a clear relation between the two. I ranged $35-$40 per inch of steel on working knives and $45-$55 on blades with more artistic detail.... with a minimum of $175 for even the smallest pieces. This was a HUGE finding for me. I used to majorly stress about pricing and spend hours factoring in time/material/shop costs, etc...

I stick to this formula now and even post it on my website so interested customers can have an idea of what to expect. I don't smelt my own steel or pattern weld. Once I get into those aspects, I am sure the formula will have an added variable.

Wally Hayes once asked me, "If a customer turned around and wanted 10 more just like it, would you be happy to do it for that price?"

Rick
 
2 All. thanks for the inputs.
To clarify some things. I count ALL possible expences in the "cost and materials". Including cleaning, electricity, pants wear, spent quench oil, etc.

The reason why I started this thread is very simple. I try to make quality knives. One-of-a-knid ONLY. I put my soul, sweat and blood in each. I finish them the way I feel right. If I ask "appropriate" money - nobody in clear mind will buy it, EVER!
So in order to succeed I need to:
a. Make "money" knives in batches.
b. Make simple(cheap) knives.
c. Forget about fine art.
d. forget about engraving
e. forget about sterling silver, gold, ivory and stones

About forging. Yes, it is possible to heat hotter and to forge a buch at a time faster. It does not sound right to me. Sorry.
 
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I hope that you don't put C,D and E completely aside. That's where you'll grow as an artist. Maybe a ratio like 1 art knives to 10 "money" knives?
Just thinking out loud here.
 
Dmitry... your talent has always floored me, sir. Do whatever you feel comfortable with, in order to keep making them.

I have had a theory going for quite some time, now...

"Once you reach an certain level of excellence in your quality and attention to detail, the cost of the work involved exceeds the price that most are willing to pay."


My advice?........ Become worse and make more money.:p


Rick
 
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  1. Get a real job where you actually make money
  2. Make knives part time for the joy of it.
  3. Be married to a fine lady the makes real money and likes supporting you.

The best way to enjoy knife making, Fred
 
Rick!!! That's ingenious!:D
I shall start a batch of 50 "american tanto" knives made of hacksaw blades with epoxy soacked wrap handles. Blade finish - sawed metal rubbed. The knife will go for free with $15 S&H:rolleyes:
+$1 for the "newspaper sheath".:cool:
 
Fred.Rowe said:
  1. Get a real job where you actually make money
  2. Make knives part time for the joy of it.
  3. Be married to a fine lady the makes real money and likes supporting you.

The best way to enjoy knife making, Fred
Click to expand...

Thanks Fred!
1. My current employment ends Jan 11, 2012 at latest.
2. The Walmart greeter is a good option; location, location,location...
3. I am maried to a fine lady that does not give a damn sh1t. Will gladly move to ANY midwes state if will find a descent job there. Alone. Till my junior turns 18. :(
 
tryppyr said:
That newspaper sheath... does it come with duct tape?
Click to expand...
I am not THAT cheap... Three!!!!! layers of 3M painters masking tape! May add a stripe of vinyl electrical tape for embelishment and a free paperclip belt loop.
 
Dmitry,
Sorry just trying to give you another makers perspective, but I guess I put my foot in it :foot:
 
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