Time required to make a knife and the "how much" question.

Hello Friends,

So far the conversation has focused primarily on one side of the equation, that of reducing costs. The other side to effecting one's bottom line is, of course, increasing revenues. Dmitry, I'm not sure why you state it (practically as axiomatic) that no one would pay more for your knives. Is that an absolute? It might be worth while to investigate such a supposition/belief.

Marketing is a skill set unto itself and an aspect of business with its very own set of challenges and rewards. I do not mean to speak out of turn or presume I know anything about another persons business and marketing prowess, but I have found it is indeed an area that can be as unequivocally as important to business success as the quality and integrity of products or services a person provides.

Additionally, it is also important to know what one's financial needs and goals are. In this case (assuming all shop and associated costs are covered) does the about $500 per week wage (2 basic knives or a whootz one) meet your needs? For all I know you have no mortgage, lease or rent (etc) and grow your own food. If that were the case, I would say life sounded pretty good.

I guess what I'm trying to say, there are likely more angles to the question than just cost and time.

Thanks so much for sharing your thorough analysis, Dmitry. Again, I'm not quite sure what your assessment and goals are regarding that data. Come to think of it, there is little I am sure about in life anyway. :o

All the best, Phil
 
Please don't be offended by this Dmitry, you hit a nerve and I can't get this idea out of my head. I mean no offense. I respect you, and your work. And also remember that you asked this very question.

Am I wrong to think that if a maker - at any skill level - sets his labor rate at the poverty level that he undercuts everyone else at that skill level. We constantly hear of GREAT makers unable to go full time with the craft. Is this the reason? Is it because some of the makers, scared they'll never sell their work, and only trying to fund their hobby, have undercut the rest of the market down to poverty level labor rates by charging a pittance for their skillset? Does this not hurt the craft?

Dmitry, you're worth the $78 per hour. I'm very disheartened that you'd accept ten. Yes, I work in batches, and on models that I repeat. That may be a laughable thing to some, and I can accept this as a neophite, and a learner. I am no craftsman compared to you my friend, there is no doubt of that. I make users, tools, not heirlooms, and I respect that you could make a knife for a kings hoard. I hope you find a market to sell your work to that appreciates your skill, your time, and your knives. But right now, I think you're getting burned every time you sell a piece. And additionally, I think you're burning everyone else at your skill level each time you do it. Consider how many 2 knife a week guys are doing just this. Then consider that Nick Wheeler cannot go full time because knifemaking isn't self sustaining for the highly skilled makers.
 
Wow, I'm not sure how to feel after reading this thread; this is a topic I've been wrestling with a lot lately. For context, I've been at this for about three years and only recently started selling my knives. I don't do all the same steps as the OP (ie, don't forge, don't do guards, etc.), but things take me similar amounts of time. For example, hand sanding takes me at least 4-5 hours per blade, and I don't feel I'm working at a leisurely pace...I WANT to get the darn thing done! I have been trying everything I can to learn to be more efficient and to work 'smarter', but I simply can't fathom making an entire knife start to finish in the amount of time it takes me to simply hand rub one. What am I missing or doing wrong?!?!

Once I'm done, I probably have 20 hours +/- in my average knife including sheath work and I'd love to be able to charge $325 (based upon the OP formula @ 'only' $10/hr) but from what I've seen so far, customers are barely willing to spend half that amount...

From my perspective, it seems that at the core of all of this is that your costs, shop time, hourly labor rate, etc. are all completely irrelevant if customers are unwilling to pay what you are asking for them...
 
Dmitry, from what I can see of your work you do a very good to great job on all aspects of the craft.

Do you make a lower priced knife? Almost all full time makers I know have a lower priced knife they sell to the masses to fund the rest of their work. Not everyone can afford a top line Dmitry knife but a lot would love to own anything you make. You can also think of this design as an introduction to your work. My EDK is the knife I sell the most and almost everyone that's bought an EDK has followed up with a more expensive order.

I know you feel that making a simple knife takes away from your craft, I respect that but you're going to have to make a choice; keep making the more expensive knives and hope they sell or make a few simple ones to buy supplies and put food on the table. I also think you're overlooking the beauty of an elegant, simple knife. A classic black dress from the 1920s can be worn today because it's an elegant design. The art in a simple knife comes from the interaction of angles, curves and material choices.

Lastly, I really question your processes. It doesn't take 20 hours for me to make a knife using only hand tools. There's bound to be a lot of wasted time in your processes (I did a lot of process engineering at work) because I can't see 20 hours in the steps you've outlined.
 
Andy, I read your post as respectful and well thought out. You want what we all want... for folks to get paid their worth. It is a conundrum to say the least. Do you hold your ground and risk no sales?... or... Do you move just that "little bit" this time and perhaps only a bit more on next? Soon you have back yourself into a hole. The market is not easily swayed. It makes sense that if we all stop buying gas at insane prices that the oil companies will bend... the reality is that most folks aren't willing to suffer through it long enough to initiate change. I see a parallel (though, it's working in reverse, here) to knifemakers asking to get paid for their talent and hard work.

Rick
 
When a maker chooses to raise the bar, in skill and intricacy relative to production, the number of potential buyers goes down. Simple supply and demand. Makers can't change the market all they can do is alter what they make for the market. You can make subtle changes that will increase production, benefiting the bottom line, but if your desire is to produce heirlooms; genius can't be rushed.:D

I have great admiration for makers who can produce quantities of knives. I am amazed at anyone who makes a full time living in knifemaking.

Personally; I make jigs for a living and knives for the joy it gives me.

Well said Andy!

Fred
 
Will Leavitt said:
I know you feel that making a simple knife takes away from your craft, I respect that but you're going to have to make a choice; keep making the more expensive knives and hope they sell or make a few simple ones to buy supplies and put food on the table.
Click to expand...

Yep...
 
Spent some time looking around your site. Nicely done and the knives are top notch. Couple of thoughts, have you considered selling wootz ingots or semi-forged blades? Have you considered a purveyor/dealer?

Lastly and this may strike a sore spot with you... the handle material does not match the level of work. I realize it's walnut but I really think that your work, especially the carved pieces require something special. Take your 440 folder, beautiful work but the handle is blah to me, it may be walnut but it looks like red oak or something plain. Mother of pearl, some wild ironwood burl or mammoth would really set that piece off. A upgrade in handle material would help move your work to the level of customers that are willing to pay for your work.

I mean no disrespect but the business end is what usually gets all of us.
 
Guys! I really appreciate all this input. Some of your posts simply purged my mind and made few things clear as an interstellar vacuum.

I don't know where to start so forgive me for messy and unstructurized post. As an engineer i like everything be structurized and in order. Things are not in order in my head now so forgive me please.

My childish understanding of any trade is - you start as apprentice\nube\greenhorn\worm\jughead. Than moove up according to your skills, experience and talent. The golden goal is to become a Master. Wich is more like a figure of speech as ideal is not acheavable. Once you stop - you have arrested your development. It appears to be the WRONG understanding.
Another stupid and idealistic garbage in my head was - the better you are in you skills, the better you live. WRONG

O Lord... I wrote and erased a lot of words more than a dozen of times...

Let me put it straigt and honest. Discalmer: I DO NOT want to offense anyone so please do not take ANYTHING on your account.

I make what I feel is nice the way I feel is right including the spent time.
I do not have any intention to cut the prices or ruin the trade, period.
I charged as much as I felt right.
The customers/buyers do not want to know how much went into a certain piece and they do not care, period.


P.S. Yesterday, after my daytime job I started at 6pm and sanded one handle to 800 grit and vacuum-treated it( you may call it a stabilization). 1 hour. Sanded the guard with 400-600-800 grit and polished it. 1 hour. Sanded 1 blade with 220-320-400-600-800 grit. 2 hours.

Sorry. I should not have started.
 
Whatever you are doing, I like the results. If results are the true indicators of success, you're there. Congratulations!

Affirm your successes, and acknowledge your shortcomings on the path to even greater successes. Measure yourself by how satisfied you are.

From what I have seen, you have a lot to be satisfied about.

- Greg
 
Will Leavitt said:
The business end is what usually gets all of us.
Click to expand...

Yep. It's a hit.

If I will upgrade the materials it will add to the price. Tried it; still have some knives hanging from 3 years ago.
Wootz ingots? Than I'll have to compete with the crap from EBay. They sell spent milling balls for $30-50 as "wootz ingots from Rajastan" And my ingot cost is not less than $100. And to tell you the truth, there are only 2-3 people that can forge it into the billet. It takes some skill an knowledge. The forged, groung and heat treated blade will cost me about $100 and it will NOT look like high contrast forgewelded damascuss.
Folders... I tried and understand that I am not ready to sell what I make. So I gave this folder to the engraver that did it and let him sell it. Untill I master the skill I do not make any folders for sale.
Dealers? I had one gallery that claimed they can sell... no single sale there. I put few knives in local store on a commission sale - no sales. I went to the shows - wasted money, no sales but a lot of folks asking "why so much for that?!"

It feels like my craft does not exactly fit into the market.
 
Dmitry,
Maybe you're worrying too much... I dunno, I can't see how your work isn't selling other than what I see as the choice of handle materials and not having an "intro" knife design. Are you getting repeat orders?
 
One cool thing about knifemaking is that someone can turn a $10 piece of steel into a $300 knife.

:D :p

I've been selling cord wrap american style tantos all week because they are what I like!

Don't hate...

appreciate! :D


( I know you were just pointing out that you were not going to dumb down your art to sell more, I'm just saying ignore outside influences and go from there )
 
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Make what you want, put out a quality product and if it sells you are doing great. I literally have more repeat sales than I have "sold" knives... requests because they were happy with my work and price.

I have been trying to get faster because then I will make some money but that will come with more experience. I probably spent more hours on the ricasso of my first knife than I did making the last one and it was mirror polished. I'm still not making minimum wage yet, lol but I can see the potential once I have years of experience.

Knives are like vehicles, most people can't afford the very best so the companies that put out a quality, long lasting product with a low price sell the most. I'd love a Porsche but I have a Toyota, lol.

I try to stay focused on making knives I would want to buy. Hopefully the economy starts doing better soon so more people can afford to buy the really nice ones!
 
Lol, one more thing.

When pricing something price it on what it is worth, not how hard or easy it was for you to make.

A guy with a surface mill is going to have an easier time getting his steel flat but the customer doesn't care, they are looking at the final product. I'm doing some work for a guy right now, I quoted him a higher than normal price for the job because one part had to be outsourced and explained that "my" price was the same. He told me since he was paying more, he wanted more... he's right too. Of cpurse, a handmade custom has more value than a factory made piece, I'm not talking about competing with a manufacturer.

What would you pay as a buyer and as a maker would you make more for that price?
 
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Okay... I'll go there... feel free to mock the cheesy guy....


Attitude, Intent and Honesty.... this is what separates the "successful" from the "struggling"...

My definition of success has less to do with money and more to do with happiness.

Make the knives you want, ask the prices you need, remain honest to yourself, your customer, your craft and know that there are people out there who will buy them. This is a state of mind... you can put into effect, now!

Find your target market... there is one for every niche... your niche is "complete sole authorship" which only a few can claim. This is a bit more difficult to zone in on. Would it be surprizing to learn that not everybody who would buy your knives, hangs out at knife related sites or frequents shows? Think high-end interior decorating, handmade arts/crafts and eccentric collector sites.

You have everything you need to be successful, don't overthink things... the easiest way is the right way... follow your gut. Don't confuse "easiest" with "quickest". It would be quicker to lower your standards and make a fast buck but how easy would it be to live with that decision?

Rick
 
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