Tip up -- yaaaouch!

I've never had a tip-up folder open up in my pocket. I have had a couple of tip-down folders, with extremely weak ball dentents, open up on me though.

In a perfect world, all of my favorite designs would be available as lockbacks. But until the world becomes perfect, I guess I'll settle for strong ball detents.
 
I guess I don't understand how a tip-down folder could open inadvertently as it's removes from the pocket. if the blade has come out a bit, wouldn't it close back up as you grab it and pull it out?
 
My Ti-Lite is a little unusual in that it has a pocket-pull lever, so when you pull it from the pocket and draw the lever across the top of the pocket, it snaps open.

While I don't know how the knife opened, the lever may have been pressed during the course of my walking/sitting/kneeling. In any event, the tip pulled out of the handle just enough to grab my thumb.

I carry my keys on a chain with an Arc AAA LED light, which hangs out of my pocket and is available for use without pulling out the whole key chain. The keys hang in my pocket, but don't drop to the bottom and bunch up with anything else I'm carrying. I carry the keys between the knife and the outside edge of my pocket, so the knife acts as a lock, preventing the accidental loss of keys or the pickpocketing of them. When I pull my keys out, my thumb goes to the inside of the knife (outside of the pocket) where the needle-sharp blade was lying in wait.
 
Twindog,

Bummer! I haven't had this happen in all the years of carrying tip-up folders. These are all I own. However, I do make sure the detent action is good on the folders. Pretty much Sebenzas/CRK or Benchmade Axis locks.

Also, I draw the knife holding the clip and flat part of the handle, so I don't reach across the blade path. You might consider trying this too.
 
Geode,

Thats what I was doing until, in a hurry one day, the thumb was placed where it could get nailed.

Even more important is the fact that while in a hurry, I wasn't stressed to reach for it under attack. Things fall apart at these times so I am left to ponder Murhpy on my shoulder and realize it WILL happen again one day.

In attempting to prevent that from ocurring under stress and a potential life and death encounter, I've taken that variable out of the potential equation.
Brownie
 
I don't see this as being an issue with my Axis locks. My 710 carries tip up, but the blade's spide is against the side of my pocket. meaning to open it would have to push through the seam. So it's in my front right pocket, slid all the way to the back of the pocket (towards my side, not towards my crotch). If I clipped it on the opposite side of the pocket it would allow for the blade to possibly open, but carring it like that would be dumb.

Did you carry your knife in such a way that the spide of the blade wasn't snug against the seam in your pocket? If so, then you need to change the way you carry your knife.

When I carried my tip down AFCK it would open sometimes. Not good considering it could open when you go to step up or jump over something and slash you in the leg near a major blood vessel!

Was this knife in your right or left pocket?
 
Tip-up carry is the perfect carry mode for people who spend most of their day upside-down or who walk on their hands, maybe circus performers or street minstrals, that sort of thing.
 
NFMee said:
I guess I don't understand how a tip-down folder could open inadvertently as it's removes from the pocket. if the blade has come out a bit, wouldn't it close back up as you grab it and pull it out?

Mine came open while clipped to my pocket, not while I was pulling them out. That was a wake-up call. I could have lost the family jewels!!! :eek:
 
Not so sure its gravity.I mean take that knife and stand it up on a table,the blade will never fall open due to gravity,hell you can turn it upsides down and gravity still will not cause it to open.. It takes some form of movement.When its in your pocket your moving,maybe you jump off of something,twisting turning etc.

Now your talking centrifugal force and inertia.

Btw I have a tip down folder that got me in the leg.Its a deep ride clip and the studs ride below the pocket and kind of "wave " it open when placing it in my pocket.
 
Gollnick said:
Tip-up carry is the perfect carry mode for people who spend most of their day upside-down or who walk on their hands, maybe circus performers or street minstrals, that sort of thing.

So I guess we all shouldn't climb ladders, gravity might make them fall down. Or wait, does the wall they lean up against prevent them from falling? Hm...

Most tip up carry knives have mechanisms that prevent the balde from just falling open. There is to much resistance for gravity to simply over come and pull the blade open. Also the blade would have to magically pass though the seam in my pocket to open up, or slide across to the other side of my pocket.

Tip down liner locks are much more dangerous. If you jump or make some quick movement that puts more force on the knife than gravity it can whip the blade open.

Funny that I've been carring my BM710 tip up almost every day for serveral years and never had it open in my pocket, but when I carried a tip down folder only a couple times it opened up in my pocket.
 
Here are some really AWEFUL sketches by me. :) I color coded them so you know what's what.

The brown is the knife handle. The grey is the clip. The blue is the pocket seams. The black is the blade. The red is the blade's edge.

As you can see, the tip up stays safely in the handle and is up against the seam. You can see if you carried a tip down the same way it could come open, and if you slide it across to put the blade's spine against the seam the knife could move at an angle in the pocket and the tip of the blade could come out.

Even if the tip up knife swung in the pocket, as long as the clip stays in place in the corner of the pocket, the tip stays against the seam and can't open.

tipdown.gif
 
I allways carry tip-down ( for 15 years now) and I never had a problem
with it. However I never carry in pocket but in waistband, just behind the
hip.
 
love the drawings wade,

imho the knife design and detent and pivot pin tightness all contribute much more to accidental openings than tip up/down, i think that is oversimplifying the whole thing.

if there was a REAL danger w/tip up carry, tip up would disappear imho, no one would make them.

instead some of the best designs around are tip up only (ie emerson). sure some good ones are the opposite, i just dont think there is a real problem.

i have never had a tip up open on me, and i walk upright all the time.

greg
 
Mine came open while clipped to my pocket, not while I was pulling them out. That was a wake-up call. I could have lost the family jewels!!!
it also happened to me.

I think it boils down to: unless it's spring tension (i.e. lockback and AXIS) once it's opened/pass the ball detent, it tends to stay open. The cause might be gravity (tip up) and it'll open further, or friction (tip down) keeps it open. Pulling out might not work, unless the blade's stud/disk get pressed down by the pocket, or the pulling out is a yank that makes the blade close up.

My CRKT Point Guard (tip down) did poke through the pocket .. lucky me it wasn't my leg.
 
This is interesting.
I honestly didn't realize that liner-lock folders had such a potential to open on their own. I have mostly only carried lockbacks (no particular reason, just the knives I like are lockbacks...), although I do have a few liner-locks, but have not carried them for extended periods of time. I have always preferred tip up for what I felt was safer for me, and easier to open quickly, over the last 10 years or so of carrying folders with pocket clips. I always felt the "tuck the blade against the seam of the pocket" argument worked for me (once again, I have mostly only carried lockbacks). I had sort of thought that the problems I had heard about were more due to isolated incidents, which I don't feel is the case anymore.


What I would really like to know is, could those of you who have had problems with liner-locks share with me the specifics of what could be improved in that style of knife to make them safer (if anything). Stiffer locks, deeper detents, safety locks for keeping the blade closed...? I would especially like to hear input form Brownie, if he is willing, because he seems to have strong concerns about liner-lock safety.

The reason is I have just been working on some liner-lock designs myself, and hope to start building them in the future, but really would prefer not to make a tool that is a safety hazard or is impractical. I originally chose to make liner-locks as a my first folders because I always liked how much easier they seemed to open and close than lockbacks, but I now recognize, from what Brownie was saying, that there may be some serious drawbacks to those benefits.

Maybe I should work on a lockback design that is easier to open and close...

Thanks for you time,
Brome

(PS: For what it is worth I have been mostly carrying a large Cold Steel Voyager as my EDC for the last 6 years. It is not an outstanding knife, but it fit my budget at the time and has stood up to pretty hard use, for a lot more than opening envelopes and cleaning my nails :) .)
 
Wapiti:

I really like linerlocks, however, I have major concerned based on experience and time in handling many of these designs over the years.

The first concern, of course, is that the ball detents on "most" linerlocks which keep the blade closed are not sufficiently stiff to keep the blade closed completely in the pocket.

Others have stated that linerlocks should be carried with the blade resting at the back of the pocket where it then can not move. Two problems arise with this line of thinking.

#1 is the fact that on a knife like the Military, which is tip down, the blade is not nestled into the rear of the pocket by design. Though I have not been bitten in this configuration myself, others have had issues with the detent letting the blade tip be exposed to some degree which has caused injuries.

#2:

As well, both times I was bit were with a tip up configuration where the knife started out with the blade nestled into the back of the pocket but during the course of normal daily activity has worked it's way far enough from the rear of the pocket to become a problem [ not often but then one good stab to the thumb when attempting access is enough to cause one to reconsider that carry option ]. This leaves one with a few choices, constantly check to make sure it is in the position it should be to not allow such occurances to happen or maybe tighten the clip to the point it doesn't want to release it from the pocket readily when quick deployment is necessary. I've tightened the clips on some of the ones I own and it is, IMO, counter productive as you then are found to be slower on accessing it. As well, it's no guarantee that it will still not bite you after having been moved during rigorous/strenuous activity. Too many variable of maybe if I do this, or maybe if I do that, or maybe if I constantly check to make sure it's in the position I want for "Murphy" to not rear his ugly head and let the knife bite you.

Imagine your surprise when you are confronted with a potentially dangerous encounter [ which is on of the reasons you carry a defensive knife ], reach into the pocket to grab it and stab your thumb to the bone while under attack. This is a real possibility and scenario. Do I need to even worry about my defensive tool getting me [ biting me ] before I can use the damned thing to save my butt? The best laid plans of mice and men as they say.

The linerlock also has issues [ suffers from ] the lock potentially releasing under stress of lateral forces [ twisting ] while opened and locked. A well made linerlock with the locks angles cut perfectly may not see these isssues for years and be "good to go", then one day it is NOT good to go as the wear on the lock has changed the strength of lockup. The problem is we do not have a crystal ball to see into the future and we may suffer the lock failing at anytime.

Do I want to trust my fingers to a lock that was "spine whack" tested and suffered no ill effects yesterday, but today has a problem under forces applied to the spine of the blade? Another guessing game not for "if" but "when" it may ocurr over the lifetime of use of the folder.

The reason a lot of people like them is that they are one of the easier locks to be wristflicked open. I also like that in a linerlock myself. The very reason that makes them speedy to deploy is also their downfall where they inadvertently open to some degree and you can be bit hard at the worst of times. Actually both incidents where I was bit were not under stress of attack and so I did not suffer damage from the perp in anyway while I stopped ALL activities to attend to the wound created by my own folder.

A truism in life is that if you are to gain something, you must give something up as nothing in this world is free. I'm not willing to give up my own safety for a knife that deploys a little faster than anothers lock design. Nor am I willing to risk inserting the blade into a perp or for that matter any material I'm cutting and due to the dynamics of the event possibly put lateral stresses on the blades lock or pressure on the spine of the blade which releases it and can take my fingers off at the worst of it. I then have to consciously pay attention while it's in use for this or it is likely to occur one day at the worst of times and could result in getting me killed in an altercation.

Did I mention I like linerlocks?

One doesn't have to not like them to not trust them for the above stated reasons. Too many things for me personally to worry about and pay attention to under stress which will never happen in a dynamic altercation. You can rest assured if you are under attack you won't be thinking about these possible problems nor will you have the time to correct a problem at that time. Look to the worst case scenario here, and decide if in a real world event you need to worry about all the above and then defend yourself at the same time.

Having been in combat in a very dynamic environ at various times, I can tell you if your equipment fails when you absolutely have to have it work you'll suffer. How much you suffer is an unknown variable. The least of which may be no damage/no harm done and at the most, your life could be compromised due to equipment failure. When it's for real, and up close and personal you do not want the stress of having to worry about your eqipment failing.

Those who carry a linerlock defensive tool and decide that the chances are slim or none it will happen to them are probably correct. Remember that it only takes one time when things go wrong to ruin not just your day but perhaps your life.

I test knives on a website, I've stab tested, spine whacked and laterally stressed these linerlocks with nary a failure to date. I wear safety gloves when performing these tests for a reason. The locks can fail. If one fails at testing, no harm done, just reported to others for their edification. If one fails me in the real world, I am not going to be wearing heavy, thick gloves.

I am not an engineer and so I will defer commenting as to how a linerlock may be made safer for the user [ locks not failing ] in scenarios above. I'm an operator, I use equipment thats already made. Most soldiers are operators. They rely on others to perform safety and performance tests and not hand them something that may fail under combat/hard use real world conditions.

Operators need to be confident their equipment will not fail. In the RVN in "70", the powers that be handed us m-16's that were jamamatics from day one. They required more maintenance and attention to the rifles condition to perform at even a remotely acceptable level. Many threw them down and picked up an ak or scrounged a 14 to use [ which had been replaced with the tinker toy 16 ]. Many more died as they had no choice in the carry options and were stuck with something unreliable.

We in the public sector as civilians have choices. If we choose wisely based on past experiences of others and ourselves, we cut the odds in our favor where survival is concerned.

Did I mention I like linerlocks?

Liking a certain design and trusting that design explicitly to not fail us when we need it are too different issues.

I'm not enamored with tip up as much as tip down carry myself in folders. I can access either config equally from the pocket using the "pop" through years of practice. Presently I carry lockbacks only, though I would carry a framelock due to the fact your hand around the knife has a "hand" in keeping the knifes lock from releasing. As well, your hand can sense/feel the lock shift when and if it does so giving you the option of stopping that particular action
right then or perhaps just grasping the knife harder to make sure the lock doesn't release. With linerlocks, by design, this is not possible.

Hope that helps, though it's only an educated opinion, based on my own experiences with linerlocks as well as others.

Brownie
 
Alright,I know I'm new to this forum,but it doesn;t mean I'm new to knives,and this subject is very easy and I know you guys have common sense.I have 8 EDCs on me all the time,6 tip up,2 tip down,only ever had problems with a knife opening in pocket from a tip DOWN. Now,from what this condescending man Gollnick surmises,is essentially tip up carry is for no sense stupid people to carry. I definitely think otherwise,one,I am a Benchmade man,therefore,I only carry Benchmades,which mean I'm carrying a very qualtiy knife,GRAVITY,is not going to open my tip up knives,Benchmade or otherwise,you have concluded easily that with tip up,the blade spin goes against the seam of the pocket.DUH. BUT I shall take this one step further and state,upon observation some people even with tip up carry,with LINER LOCKS,they still open within the pocket,however,and this is my point,with AXIS locks,on my Benchmades,they have never opened,NEVER. No problems whatsoever,even my CRKT M1 Lightfoot is tip up in my back pocket,no problems whatsoever,I've worn these things like this through Tae Kwon Do classes that I take,kicking,punching,jumping,all that stuff,they never open. SO,my conclusion is, that tip up carry is safer,and,to be totally certain, a tip-up AXIS lock knife,(with blade spine against pocket seam),will NOT open.
Game.Set.Match.Common sense,cmon,you guys can come to this conclusion yourselves,and we don't need a condescending music teacher to be sarcastic about gravity opening a knife within a pocket,why,I think if the knife were opened by gravity it would be a GRAVITY knife,DUH. Alright, Nostredamus has spoken.

-"Guns are for show,knives are for pros." -Lock,Stock,and Two Smoking Barrels
 
Brownie,
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I might take issue with you about not knowing the best ways to improve the liner-lock design to make it safer because you are not an engineer. You have experiences, and sharing those go a long way to help me (at least) as I think on designs myself. I appreciate what you are willing to opine.
(Oh, and I am not an engineer either, but don't tell anyone that :) )

As I have been working on designs, I have actually been leaning more toward frame-locks myself, although I wasn't completely sure why, so it was nice to hear your thoughts on how you think they might be safer.
Thanks again,
Brome
 
If by framelock, you mean the Chris Reeve lock, these can open in your pocket too. They have happened, rarely, with sebenzas, but enough so some people won't buy them for that reason, and I beieve one person got rid of theirs. Another person a few years back had his sebenza converted to tip down for safety.

Some lockbacks can open in your pocket, even a slipjoint can open in your pocket. If a knife opens in your pocket it is caused by more than just the lock. It depends upon how well the knife was made, how old it is, how dirty it is, what type of crap is in your pocket, is the knive clipped or not, what you are doing, etc. etc. The knife user has to be aware of his tool and its pocket environment.

Carry a fixed blade in a pocket sheath and your knife will always be open.
 
I just depends on your carry methods I think. I always carry my folder clipped to the rear of my right front pocket. In this position the blade on a tip-up knife is held closed by the end of the pocket. I only like tip-up knives. When I reach for a knife tip-up just feels much more natural to me. I also like to have lanyards on my knives and tip-up orients them so they are sticking out of my pocket which I prefer for a little added grip on the draw. Maybe if I carried differently I wouldn't so strongly prefer tip-up, who knows. I know that the only knives I've every really liked carying have been tip-up and I sold a knife that I really liked because it was tip-down and just didn't feel right because of it. I'm really glad that most of my favorite folders come tip-up (Sebenza, Strider, Buck/Strider, Delica)
 
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