Tips on Sharpening Cheap Steels

If you are obsessed with getting a wire thin mirror polished edge then you will struggle endlessly with de-burring knives made from cheap steel. The thing is that those who have such an obsession typically lack a basic understanding of how to sharpen a knife in the first place, and instead rely on guided systems which work well at home in a controlled environment but are awkward and impractical for use the real world. If you actually know how to sharpen a knife, then this probably isn't an issue for you.

All that being said, a bad heat treat is still going to screw you over no matter what. You can't fix a bad heat treat by sharpening it unless you keep sharpening until you manage to get past the bad spot(s) to some good steel underneath.
 
Hehehehehe ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Oh dear !

Opinion is like ................................. A nose ... Everyone has one !

Opinion is not fact , opinion is not data , opinion is not test results !

Fact - Steels are what they are ! As the owner of a knife , it is up to you to discover what the steel wants ..
This means testing ! How many people actually do any kind of testing at all to separate hot air from fact ?

I listen to people harping on about their person BIAS ............ And why ? To expel hot air ?

I personally sharpen 3 Ways .. Hand sharpening , Guided or fixed angle sharpening and Machine Sharpening ( wet stone grinder ) ..

Each method has positives and negatives .. And each method will suit some one ..

And when you find something that works for you - It Works ! No point harping on about something you are unable or unwilling to make work ! ( That's BS )

Personally I have 3 ways or more that work for me ! In fact , there are very few methods that don't work .. ( Some are a PITA and some are Bush League )
It's all about the individual , and the orientation of their brain ( Mine is Mode 2 ) . And not every method works for people with their brains hard wired - what ever way it's hard wired !
Thankfully my brain is hardwired towards mechanical aptitude .. This does not mean I like every method of sharpening , especially the PITA Mickey Mouse methods !
But some methods are extremely effective and produce truly excellent results . Rubbishing a method you failed at or are unwilling to try because of BIAS ... Oh dear !

There is an old saying ........... The proof is in the pudding !

So much hot air has been expelled in this thread , prompting this 25c spiel ... If there is one thing I can't stand in this world - it's BS !


The first challenge or hurdle you need to overcome is - Sharp ! ( Make the knife sharp )
The second challenge is - Stays sharp ( edge retention )

Most people never take up the second challenge ... I never took up the 2nd challenge up until a decade ago ( or so ) .
Buying Chinese knives was a new experience in disappointing ( edge retention ) .
Thankfully they are getting better ( Chinese knives - and their edge retention ) .
If those knives had not been so terrible as for me to notice , I may never have moved to the 2nd level of sharpening .
But still ...... BS irks me no end !

End ............ Please insert another 25c to continue !
 
old4570 said:
And when you find something that works for you - It Works !
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If that was all there is to it then there would be no issue. In reality things are not so simple.

For example, you buy a a sharpening system that clamps your knife in place, and it works great... until you actually have a dull knife and you're not at home, and then you're completely helpless because you don't actually know anything about how to sharpen a knife. What are you going to do? Are you going to carry that clamp system with you everywhere, or are you going to actually learn how to sharpen your knife? Yeah, the clamp system works, but you've taught yourself nothing except how to use the clamp system. You don't know anything else. You're basically helpless. But it works, right?

Right?

Wrong.
 
Cgw1984 said:
They absolutely are.
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It's like a bicycle versus a car.

When you don't know how to drive a car, it's easier to ride a bicycle, but once you learn how to drive a car, it's easier, faster, less effort to drive than a bicycle.

Cheaper, soft steel is the bicycle in this analogy.

The cheaper steel doesn't apex or deburr as easy and is prone to creating wire edges that fold over easy with use going dull prematurely. It's one of the big reasons why you see people over using sharpening steels in the kitchen.

With soft cheap steel one can remove material easy which gives the illusion of being easier to sharpen but when it comes to actually forming a lasting sharp edge; apexing, creating a burr and removing burr, the difference becomes obvious.

We can see this on the BESS tester, It is more challenging to get a softer, cheapo steel without a wire edge under 100g.
 
Guy McVer said:
If that was all there is to it then there would be no issue. In reality things are not so simple.

For example, you buy a a sharpening system that clamps your knife in place, and it works great... until you actually have a dull knife and you're not at home, and then you're completely helpless because you don't actually know anything about how to sharpen a knife. What are you going to do? Are you going to carry that clamp system with you everywhere, or are you going to actually learn how to sharpen your knife? Yeah, the clamp system works, but you've taught yourself nothing except how to use the clamp system. You don't know anything else. You're basically helpless. But it works, right?

Right?

Wrong.
Click to expand...
Some one has an axe to grind for some strange reason !
Have you heard of Lansky ? Small , portable ... Maybe even useful ..

And then how about stropping back ? Have you heard of stropping ?
When you form a very nice precise bevel / edge ....... It usually strops back very easily , for me anyways ..
Poorly sharpened edges don't strop back that well , but a nice clean precise edge does strop back .

You can strop on almost anything , leather . wood , cardboard , aluminum , steel ...
Generally , if you go out into the field with a well sharpened knife you get : ( Hopefully )
Decent edge retention , and easy strop back ..
So if your a week end warrior , your well sharpened knife should be ok ..
On the other hand , in a end of the world scenario ... You may wish to know how to sharpen on a wood stump with mud ! or that semi flat river rock !

But then , if you go afield with a poorly sharpened or formed edge , it may very well need a lot of touch up ! I will pay that !


End ....................... Please insert another 25c to continue !
 
DeadboxHero said:
It's like a bicycle versus a car.

When you don't know how to drive a car, it's easier to ride a bicycle, but once you learn how to drive a car, it's easier, faster, less effort to drive than a bicycle.

Cheaper, soft steel is the bicycle in this analogy.

The cheaper steel doesn't apex or deburr as easy and is prone to creating wire edges that fold over easy with use going dull prematurely. It's one of the big reasons why you see people over using sharpening steels in the kitchen.

With soft cheap steel one can remove material easy which gives the illusion of being easier to sharpen but when it comes to actually forming a lasting sharp edge; apexing, creating a burr and removing burr, the difference becomes obvious.

We can see this on the BESS tester, It is more challenging to get a softer, cheapo steel without a wire edge under 100g.
Click to expand...
My cheap nasty folding knife was given a certain edge and gave super steel a run for it's money ..
Hmmmm , strange that ! How can a cheap nasty knife run with super steel ?
That's a hell of a question that !
Hmmm , testing / testing / and more testing ! What to do ?
People say S without any Data or test results ... What do they call it ? Or right ..... BS !

I need more Rope for more testing & even more testing !
Cos the more testing I do , the more I learn !
Do I know enough ? Nope ! I want to know even more .. I really want to cut thru the Felter Carb !

Maybe it just depends on people idea of sharp ?

Like a BESS of 50 for a few slices is better than 900 working slices ?

Everyone is going to have their own needs and wants ...

I'm not going to tell anyone what they need or want ... I just don't like BS !

I have a cheap N nasty knife in front of me right now with a mirror polished edge that is being maintained VIA stropping ..
And it's Sharp , silly sharp !
Sorry , just about any steel can be made sharp , they can be Stays Sharp as well apparently ..
I might be wasting my time , cos people will say stuff ! Whether it's true or not ! Guess you just got to grind that axe !

.................................. Insert 25c to continue .
 
old4570 said:
My cheap nasty folding knife was given a certain edge and gave super steel a run for it's money ..
Hmmmm , strange that ! How can a cheap nasty knife run with super steel ?
That's a hell of a question that !
Hmmm , testing / testing / and more testing ! What to do ?
People say S without any Data or test results ... What do they call it ? Or right ..... BS !

I need more Rope for more testing & even more testing !
Cos the more testing I do , the more I learn !
Do I know enough ? Nope ! I want to know even more .. I really want to cut thru the Felter Carb !

Maybe it just depends on people idea of sharp ?

Like a BESS of 50 for a few slices is better than 900 working slices ?

Everyone is going to have their own needs and wants ...

I'm not going to tell anyone what they need or want ... I just don't like BS !

I have a cheap N nasty knife in front of me right now with a mirror polished edge that is being maintained VIA stropping ..
And it's Sharp , silly sharp !
Sorry , just about any steel can be made sharp , they can be Stays Sharp as well apparently ..
I might be wasting my time , cos people will say stuff ! Whether it's true or not ! Guess you just got to grind that axe !

.................................. Insert 25c to continue .
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Are you OK?
 
BS gets my Goat !
I guess if you spread enough of it (?) something beautiful might grow ?
 
I have gotten pretty good over the course of 2 or 3 years at sharpening my addiction knives, and thus have offered my services to others, friends, family, coworkers, etc; which they quite readily accepted. However, the problem has arisen that from time to time they bring me knives of with appallingly terrible steel, which steel that I cannot for the life of me remove the burr from. After raising the burr on a belt grinder (with copious additions of water to avoid overheating), I've tried stropping, honing steels, dragging lightly through softwood, power stropping, single passes on whetstones, you name it, and still either the burr persists or the edge just mashes down like the cheap junk it is and the blade is dull again. Any tips for these steels?

Yeah !
A) BS responses to OP are BS responses
B) I did respond
C) ........................ There is this word that is ........... ( In my opinion - abused ) .......... Called = Skill !

I say it's abused because from what I see ( should that be read ) , it is something that's actually lacking ! I don't want to nit pick every BS statement ( opinion ) .
How ever , I would really like to see people develop that thing called skill .
Because once you have it .. Well , sharpening knives becomes pretty much a non issue ( no matter the method employed ) because you are skilled .
It no longer matters what steel you are sharpening or the method you apply because the end result is a sharp knife .

The universal truth is ...... If you cant make the knife sharp , you did something wrong .
Which then requires corrective measures to be taken .
Asking for advice is great and even better would be getting on youtube and watching some video's by ? ( experts ) , more professional sharpeners ( wet stone maybe ) .
Youtube is full of video for everyone .

The problem may be with human nature ? We have a tendency to reject information we dont agree with .. Scientists / historians do it all the time .. They call things they dont like anomalous Data and reject it !
A great example of this is the Human Migration theory for North America .. Peoples lives were destroyed by the mainstream because other scientists / historians found data / evidence that countered the mainstream theory !
It's 2023 now and the original migration theory has been pretty much destroyed and all the believers that pushed it proven to be ? ( Stupid / delusional / dangerous )
We all believe what we believe and some - Rather than exploring or expanding their understanding - Cling to half truths or worse as if their lives depended on it . ( Why ? )
We have thousands of years of recorded history that proves that people cling to BS like it was a life preserver !
Is it really so hard to process new ideas or new results / theories / or different solutions ? What is the problem ?

Yeah , I haven't been gentle / understanding / Sensitive / or WOKE ... I tend to just get a bit Curmudgeon'y ( Cranky Old Man )
And honestly , if your going to say stuff ! Then yes , you should consider that proof may be required . And if you think that you have nothing to prove ? Then I guess it means that what you say has no value .. ( Hot Air )

Cheap steel / Super Steel ? It can be sharpened ! Buck uses 420 ! Tell Buck you cant sharpen their 420 .. Cos it's cheap steel .
Ganzo is doing an amazing job with CrMov , yeah - Cheap Steel ! Spyderco has started using cheap steel - I don't own any of their CrMov = Is it cheap N nasty ?
It just makes me tired all over when people push a barrow full of fertilizer ...

Got problems sharpening ? Get on youtube .. Plenty of good communicators giving good advice !
Not prepared to do that ? ............................................
Need to learn something ? Your first port of call should be youtube ... Car repair / home repair / fixing your puter / building a boat = Youtube !
Yes , youtube is becoming a bit ? ( WOKE maybe ? ) but still a great resource of learning material .
The older I get , the stranger the world gets ! So the harder I cling to truth & facts & data & as much as possible - reality ! ( But that's just me )
 
When I think of cheap steels, I tend to lean torwards how they are treated.

I have had some knives that would not take an edge due to slivers of steel flaking off, or from the apex crumbling.

The slivers I can't do much about, the matrix is garbage from the get go, or was heat treated poorly.

For crumbling edges, you can try a more obtuse apex, which helps somewhat.
 
MolokaiRider said:
When I think of cheap steels, I tend to lean torwards how they are treated.

I have had some knives that would not take an edge due to slivers of steel flaking off, or from the apex crumbling.

The slivers I can't do much about, the matrix is garbage from the get go, or was heat treated poorly.

For crumbling edges, you can try a more obtuse apex, which helps somewhat.
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If an edge is crumbling it's very probably because someone burned it on a belt sander and destroyed the temper. The solution in that case is to keep sharpening until you reach undamaged steel. If the WHOLE blade is that way, just throw it away, because it's garbage.
 
Blade Lab said:
If an edge is crumbling it's very probably because someone burned it on a belt sander and destroyed the temper. The solution in that case is to keep sharpening until you reach undamaged steel. If the WHOLE blade is that way, just throw it away, because it's garbage.
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That's a unique opportunity to learn about how some inexpensive knives can seem so bad.

I have a cheap paring knife that behaved exactly like this, every time I tried to sharpen it. The apex of the edge would literally crumble into dust as soon as I'd managed to apex it. It would go immediately butterknife dull and rounded at the apex with the first swipe on strop.

It took many attempts at regrinding the edge, over the span of many months between attempts, before the damaged steel near the edge was removed and it started to behave normally during sharpening. Once I finally got there, it turned out to be a good slicer at sub-30° inclusive geometry and one of my favorite users for the kitchen. But it tested my patience for a very long time before getting there. I'd been tempted to throw it out many times, but I'm glad I didn't. A valuable lesson.
 
Mialum said:
I have gotten pretty good over the course of 2 or 3 years at sharpening my addiction knives, and thus have offered my services to others, friends, family, coworkers, etc; which they quite readily accepted. However, the problem has arisen that from time to time they bring me knives of with appallingly terrible steel, which steel that I cannot for the life of me remove the burr from. After raising the burr on a belt grinder (with copious additions of water to avoid overheating), I've tried stropping, honing steels, dragging lightly through softwood, power stropping, single passes on whetstones, you name it, and still either the burr persists or the edge just mashes down like the cheap junk it is and the blade is dull again. Any tips for these
Click to expand...

Mialum said:
I have gotten pretty good over the course of 2 or 3 years at sharpening my addiction knives, and thus have offered my services to others, friends, family, coworkers, etc; which they quite readily accepted. However, the problem has arisen that from time to time they bring me knives of with appallingly terrible steel, which steel that I cannot for the life of me remove the burr from. After raising the burr on a belt grinder (with copious additions of water to avoid overheating), I've tried stropping, honing steels, dragging lightly through softwood, power stropping, single passes on whetstones, you name it, and still either the burr persists or the edge just mashes down like the cheap junk it is and the blade is dull again. Any tips for these steels?
Click to expand...
I have no experience with belt grinder, but with stones I've been able to get any cheap steel I've come across very sharp. For burr removal you just need to increase the sharpening angle a little bit and use feather light strokes, like less than the weight of the knife. This technique works wonders. I've even been able to sharpen brass this way.
 
I remain unconvinced that belt grinders are as hazardous to the health of knife edges as they are commonly portrayed.
See Horsewright's experience in an experiment on sharpening

Conclusion: "Larrin and I discussed this here some years ago when I related this story another time for similar reasons. I too was surprised by the results cause before I made those eight gillion slices I would of told you that hand sharpening would be superior. What he said if I remembered correctly was that what we had proven was that done correctly, belt sharpening is certainly viable. Not superior but done correctly not inferior to hand sharpening either."
 
Another Shepherd said:
I remain unconvinced that belt grinders are as hazardous to the health of knife edges as they are commonly portrayed.
See Horsewright's experience in an experiment on sharpening

Conclusion: "Larrin and I discussed this here some years ago when I related this story another time for similar reasons. I too was surprised by the results cause before I made those eight gillion slices I would of told you that hand sharpening would be superior. What he said if I remembered correctly was that what we had proven was that done correctly, belt sharpening is certainly viable. Not superior but done correctly not inferior to hand sharpening either."
Click to expand...
Hmmmm , the problems is ...
The very apex of the edge is thin .... So while the rest of the knife may not get hot - You can still quite easily burn the apex and never feel it .
Also your technique on a belt matters ..

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sharpening+a+knife+with+a+belt+grinder+ > Some videos .....
 
Another Shepherd said:
I remain unconvinced that belt grinders are as hazardous to the health of knife edges as they are commonly portrayed.
See Horsewright's experience in an experiment on sharpening

Conclusion: "Larrin and I discussed this here some years ago when I related this story another time for similar reasons. I too was surprised by the results cause before I made those eight gillion slices I would of told you that hand sharpening would be superior. What he said if I remembered correctly was that what we had proven was that done correctly, belt sharpening is certainly viable. Not superior but done correctly not inferior to hand sharpening either."
Click to expand...

Larrin? I do not waste my time on junk steel anymore at all.
 
I don’t remember that specific conversation. I could see myself saying that we don’t know the exact variables where power sharpening affects edge retention, but not that power sharpening and hand sharpening are the same. But we are talking about the volume of the edge, water cooled or no, how much water, amount of friction being generated which is controlled by a bunch of other factors like speed and abrasive and pressure, etc. And then after all that you could result in a whole range of different levels of effect whether 5, 10, 20, 50% reduction in edge retention and again that would depend on the type of test being performed. If it is a test with high forces in cutting the effect of reduced hardness would be greater than in a pure wear test, for example.
 
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