Tips on Sharpening Cheap Steels

[Cementite]

Seems to me that raising a burr is the fastest, easiest and most reliable way to know that you removed enough metal to reach the apex.

As for worrying that by raising a burr, I removed too much metal -- my time is worth more to me than the 0.001% I reduced the knife's lifespan by removing a microgram too much steel. I can always buy another knife in 30 years if I wear it out faster by raising burrs. But I can't buy back the portion of my lifespan that I wasted trying to sneak up on the apex without raising a burr.

If anything, I'm usually more interested in removing more metal faster than the opposite. When I try to remove nicks from edges even on coarse sharpening stones, for example, I'm usually surprised at how long it actually takes to remove what appears to be an infinitesimal amount of steel. To paraphrase Hippocrates, "Ferrum longa, vita brevis." Bring on the belt sander, I'm growing old here! YMMV.

 

[Guy McVer]

I used to be strongly against microscopes. I had feelings similar to yours but over time that changed and I realized It was actually a great tool to evaluate my work more objectively and improve my skill and knowledge about what's actually happening at the edge not what I thought was happening.

For instance, I certainly don't pull the edge through wood to clean up any residual burr like I used to do 10 years ago.

Cool. Like I said, if it helps you learn better, that's great. I would say if you are hitting a wall and you can't progress to where you want to be, then maybe a microscope is a great idea for you so that you can figure out how to get past that wall.

 

[me2]

With relation to the original topic, forming a burr can be detrimental to applying a final edge. That’s why I recommended not forming one, or forming one then cutting it off and following up with light alternating passes.

No edge is perfect if you use enough magnification. They’re not straight either. They wave back and forth like a country road. That’s one of the reasons for Roman Landes looking into edge stability 20 years ago. However, that feature is difficult to see using a microscope. They don’t typically see far enough for the edge path to be evident.

 

[Guy McVer]

Seems to me that raising a burr is the fastest, easiest and most reliable way to know that you removed enough metal to reach the apex.

As for worrying that by raising a burr, I removed too much metal -- my time is worth more to me than the 0.0000000000000000001% I reduced the knife's lifespan by removing half a microgram too much steel. I can always buy another knife in 30 years. But I can't buy back any time.

YMMV.

Yep, most often it is, and that's why it's repeated so often. It's typically the fastest easiest way. But somewhere along the line a lot of people became convinced that it was required, and that's just not true. There's a difference between following the steps and understanding the process.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Cool. Like I said, if it helps you learn better, that's great. I would say if you are hitting a wall and you can't progress to where you want to be, then maybe a microscope is a great idea for you so that you can figure out how to get past that wall.

"You, you, you"

No.

Us, we, all.

 

[LoupeEdge]

Microscopes are pretty important to make sure our ideas are still based in reality and not in our imagination.

Everybody is a sharpening master until we start looking closer at the edges.

We don't need a microscope every time we sharpen to make a sharp edge.

However, there is certainly something to be gained by using a microscope to evaluate our own work objectively rather than having an idealized version what we think is happening at the apex.

Agreed—why stumble in the dark when you can turn on a light?

 

[Grasshopperglock]

My...load out when sharpening.

Head lamp, check.

1x reading glasses, check.

30x loupe, check.

With every room light I can turn on.


I've read that burrs are causing issues with cheap kitchen knives. Personally, never had the problem. Cheapo kitchen knife gets over 30minutes of attention. With various steps removing the burr.

So either I'm lucky. Or the garbage knives I find are high end garbage. Or people really do need some used $600 microscope to sharpen a $1.20 knife.

 

[TheOne45]

After sharpening and stropping I cut some news paper cross fibers. I use one diamond plate for sharpening, usually #240 or #320. If the knife cuts the paper this doesn't mean there is no burr.
Then I whittle my spruce stick. if the knife cuts news paper cross fibers after that there was no burr.
If it doesn't there was a burr on the edge but so small I couldn't see it with my 60x loupe and it folded or partially teared off cutting the wood.

Sometimes when I try something new I take the knife to work and inspect the edge under one of our microscopes.

 

[TheOne45]

Cheapo kitchen knife gets over 30minutes of attention.

Five or ten minutes in my case.....#240 diamond plate and strop with chrome polishing compound.

Or people really do need some used $600 microscope to sharpen a $1.20 knife.

No need but nice to see the result so you know what something you do does to the edge.

 

[Blade Lab]

With relation to the original topic, forming a burr can be detrimental to applying a final edge. That’s why I recommended not forming one, or forming one then cutting it off and following up with light alternating passes.

I don't believe it's possible to apex an edge without forming a burr. When you reach the apex, some metal is going to push over to the other side. But I get the notion to trying to keep it to a minimum (maybe even one that's so small you can't feel it with a thumb). To get the ultimate edge, it's not enough to just break off the burr. You also have to refine what Wootz referred to as the "burr root," or the base where the burr was attached. The smaller the burr is to begin with, the less refining you have to do.

 

[Grasshopperglock]

Five or ten minutes in my case.....#240 diamond plate and strop with chrome polishing compound.


No need but nice to see the result so you know what something you do does to the edge.

You're a lot quicker then me. I treat it like a $1000 knife. 240 out to a 1000. 3 micron diamond emulsion. Balsa wood strop. Maintained with a 3000 grit ceramic hone.

The only, 'cheap' steel that refused to take an edge. Even out to 2000. Was a vintage Pakistani Buck 110 knock off.

The steel was so crumbly. It felt like trying to sharpen cast iron. And it grinded nasty. Made a big mess of black slurry.

There's cheap knives and then there's straight up trash knives.


The cheap kitchen knives are easy and they'll take a decent edge. Again, lay the angle back to 15°. Then maintain it with a hone.

 

[Cementite]

I don't believe it's possible to apex an edge without forming a burr.

That's what I was thinking, too...certainly not without a microscope to inspect.

It's just a consequence of the properties of the material. You might be able to pull it off with a ceramic blade...steel, not so much.

 

[chalby]

It's entirely negligible. Just hold the same angle and you can disregard all the minor surface irregularities along the edge.

You can disregard the irregularities, but those irregularities are called dull spots.

 

[Guy McVer]

You can disregard the irregularities, but those irregularities are called dull spots.

Don't freak out. They'll go away if you just hold the same angle. You don't even have to think about it. It's really that simple.

I don't believe it's possible to apex an edge without forming a burr.

That's probably because you only know how to do things one way. You sit there grinding away on one side until a burr forms along the whole length of the edge. And that's all you ever do because its the only way that you know how to get results.

 

[chalby]

Don't freak out. They'll go away if you just hold the same angle. You don't even have to think about it. It's really that simple.

Yes, you hold the same angle, keep working away removing the material either side of the dull spot until the dull spot is now at the apex.

You will form a burr unless you want to spend hours doing something that should take a minute or two.

Nobody is freaking out. It's just that what you are saying is not practical. Either that or you don't understand burr formation. Just because you cant easily see or feel a burr doesn't mean you don't have one. Leaving a residual burr is one of the most common reasons people don't get maximum edge retention or sometimes even initial sharpness from some steels.

 

[Guy McVer]

You will form a burr unless you want to spend hours doing something that should take a minute or two.

Hours, no. Not unless your edge is severely damaged. Which begs the question of how it got that bad in the first place. Did you abuse your knife, or have you been putting off sharpening for too long?

I always advise people to stay on top of their edges because it saves a huge amount of time sharpening. The more you put it off, the worse you are making it for yourself.

I like to carry a pocket stone and touch up my knife as I use it. As a result I rarely ever have to sit down and spend any real length of time sharpening it.

 

[TheOne45]

You're a lot quicker then me. I treat it like a $1000 knife. 240 out to a 1000. 3 micron diamond emulsion. Balsa wood strop. Maintained with a 3000 grit ceramic hone.

My approach is somehow different. I call it ''less is more'' approach.
Let's say I decided to sharpen my cheap stainless kitchen knife most common way … form a burr on one side, flip the knife and form the burr on the other side … reduce the burr with gentle edge leading alternating passes … and then remove the burr with strop.

So; #240 (or #320) diamond plate to get an edge and then a few passes on strop loaded with industrial metal polish compound (more aggresive as green compound) to remove the burr.
In this case I get aggresive burr free edge which cuts all I cut in my kitchen from raw meat to anything else. This edge also shaves but it's not exactly comfortable shaving.
If I want more refined and smooth edge I just strop some more with leather strops loaded with 10, 7, 6, 3 or 0.5 micron diamond compounds.
It depends how far I go with stropping. I can get smooth push-cutting edge I can comfortably shave with but such edge won't bite.

 

[Grasshopperglock]

My approach is somehow different. I call it ''less is more'' approach.
Let's say I decided to sharpen my cheap stainless kitchen knife most common way … form a burr on one side, flip the knife and form the burr on the other side … reduce the burr with gentle edge leading alternating passes … and then remove the burr with strop.

So; #240 (or #320) diamond plate to get an edge and then a few passes on strop loaded with industrial metal polish compound (more aggresive as green compound) to remove the burr.
In this case I get aggresive burr free edge which cuts all I cut in my kitchen from raw meat to anything else. This edge also shaves but it's not exactly comfortable shaving.
If I want more refined and smooth edge I just strop some more with leather strops loaded with 10, 7, 6, 3 or 0.5 micron diamond compounds.
It depends how far I go with stropping. I can get smooth push-cutting edge I can comfortably shave with but such edge won't bite.

Yeah, my style is different. I don't sharpen one side to a burr and then flip. Sharpen that side to a burr and flip.

I work both sides down evenly until there's a burr. So only much on one side, no where near a burr. Flip. Rinse and repeat until both sides meet in the middle. Forming the apex.

Then I address the burr. I drag a piece of pine wood down the edge. Then strop.

 

[Mialum]

For instance, I certainly don't pull the edge through wood to clean up any residual burr like I used to do 10 years ago.

I'm curious: in your case, what did you notice that made you stop doing this?

 

[TheOne45]

For instance, I certainly don't pull the edge through wood to clean up any residual burr like I used to do 10 years ago.

I don't do that to remove a burr. I do that to check for a burr. If I can't see a burr with my 60x loupe it doesn't mean there is no burr. The knife cuts news paper but sometimes small burr which looks like edge is cutting the paper. If there is a burr it will mostly fold when I pull the knife through the wood and the knife won't cut news paper.
Then I do some more stropping and check again.
I whittle spruce wood and if knife after that stil cuts news paper I'm good and burr free.
But this is just me.
You can try it without a fear, I have no patent on this approach.