Titanium alloy ninja sword from the future

[Allan DeGroot]

Ohhh to still be working one place I worked in the 1980's.

They made some relatively weird stuff in-house, that involved some
rather exotic alloys, typically Various Hastelloy and Stellite alloys, not many
titanium mixes, but several "One-off alloys" made for rocket engine turbo pump shafts.

Usually substituting Cobalt for Iron in some (otherwise) normal alloy. and one was particularly
Expensive made of
Cromium-Vanadium-Cobalt-Nickel-Niobium-Beryllium, there was also some Palladium(less than 1%)
in the mix That stuff was only machined while a security officer watched and helped
clean up all chips, because in-house it was handled as though it was precious metal (Elemental platinum).

They never watched me as carefully when I was fabricating turbine shaft seals out
of fine (silver and platinum free) Gold as the turbo pump I was working on was
Hydrazine fueled. and contact with traces of either silver or platinum metals COULD cause
an explosion (Or so I was told). So, part of my job was to "wash" all the tooling in hydrazine, then to
clean the hydrazine off of everything (Hydrazine is rather toxic) so I could work. (I must have done everything right as I haven't needed a Liver transplant)

I was overjoyed when I was moved to another job (in the same facility) where I made nearly identical
seals out of commercially pure indium, there I only had to work with small quantities
of Hydrochloric acid (Typically 100ml at a time)
I was making seals in systems containing high pressure Helium and indium is one of the few things impermeable to Helium
And later I moved to another Company where we made artillery fuses and that job
was downright relaxing, it was taken as an almost religious belief that people handling
explosives should never be annoyed BY ANYTHING...They stopped just short of requiring
only decaf Coffee...

 

[Mecha]

Ohhh to still be working one place I worked in the 1980's.

They made some relatively weird stuff in-house, that involved some
rather exotic alloys, typically Various Hastelloy and Stellite alloys, not many
titanium mixes, but several "One-off alloys" made for rocket engine turbo pump shafts.

Usually substituting Cobalt for Iron in some (otherwise) normal alloy. and one was particularly
Expensive made of
Cromium-Vanadium-Cobalt-Nickel-Niobium-Beryllium, there was also some Palladium(less than 1%)
in the mix That stuff was only machined while a security officer watched and helped
clean up all chips, because in-house it was handled as though it was precious metal (Elemental platinum).

They never watched me as carefully when I was fabricating turbine shaft seals out
of fine (silver and platinum free) Gold as the turbo pump I was working on was
Hydrazine fueled. and contact with traces of either silver or platinum metals COULD cause
an explosion (Or so I was told). So, part of my job was to "wash" all the tooling in hydrazine, then to
clean the hydrazine off of everything (Hydrazine is rather toxic) so I could work. (I must have done everything right as I haven't needed a Liver transplant)

I was overjoyed when I was moved to another job (in the same facility) where I made nearly identical
seals out of commercially pure indium, there I only had to work with small quantities
of Hydrochloric acid (Typically 100ml at a time)
I was making seals in systems containing high pressure Helium and indium is one of the few things impermeable to Helium
And later I moved to another Company where we made artillery fuses and that job
was downright relaxing, it was taken as an almost religious belief that people handling
explosives should never be annoyed BY ANYTHING...They stopped just short of requiring
only decaf Coffee...

Yes why don't you still work there making space ships.

Great stuff, I'd like to hear more about it.

 

[Allan DeGroot]

Yes why don't you still work there making space ships.

Great stuff, I'd like to hear more about it.

I was a contract employee (a "job-shopper") rather common in various tech industrial projects

and the contract I was hired to work on ran out!

they hired many people and government contracts end...

there are also reasons for the typical 25 year term of Non-Disclosure agreements
(how much fine detail do you think remains in your head after 35 years?)
I can remember the faces of people I worked with, but not names to go with
those faces.

Wake me up from a sound sleep at 3:45am and ask me and I'm likely to pull up details
that can rack my brain over trying to remember without success. Like remembering the
serial number of the M1 Garand I lugged around boot-camp for two months in 1980.

Granted I have recited and duplicated(from memory) ballistic tables I haven't SEEN
in 20 years or used in even longer...

 

[Allan DeGroot]

I never said I worked on space ships. I worked on tiny pieces that were
parts of liquid rocket motors, and from there I went to work on parts that supported the sensors on certain surveillance Sattelites, I was so far in the back on those projects...

BTW that was all 30+ years in the past and a Heart Attack and a Stroke ago....

 

[Mecha]

I never said I worked on space ships. I worked on tiny pieces that were
parts of liquid rocket motors, and from there I went to work on parts that supported the sensors on certain surveillance Sattelites, I was so far in the back on those projects...

BTW that was all 30+ years in the past and a Heart Attack and a Stroke ago....

Sounds to me like space ships - I think a satellite counts! It is a space vehicle, albeit inner space. It makes one wonder what sorts of hidden advancements have been made since then.

The Titanium-Niobium alloy used for this ninja sword is from an undisclosed project of some sort...though I have my strong suspicion for what and why it was originally made.

 

[HJK]

I just popped in from the future to say no, we don't have swords that nice, except for Mecha's of course.

 

[Allan DeGroot]

Sounds to me like space ships - I think a satellite counts! It is a space vehicle, albeit inner space. It makes one wonder what sorts of hidden advancements have been made since then.

The Titanium-Niobium alloy used for this ninja sword is from an undisclosed project of some sort...though I have my strong suspicion for what and why it was originally made.

Titanium-niobium? commonest use I can think of are Rocket motor exhaust bells.

The material I would have liked to "lunchbox" home, would have been Beryllium-Nickel (for my intended use even a bucket of chips would have been fine), but there was also this Manganese-Chromium-Vanadium-Cobalt alloy, that I used to have a chunk of that had been used for decades to dress Silicon Carbide grinding wheels with seemingly no signs of wear...

 

[Mecha]

Titanium-niobium? commonest use I can think of are Rocket motor exhaust bells.

The material I would have liked to "lunchbox" home, would have been Beryllium-Nickel (for my intended use even a bucket of chips would have been fine), but there was also this Manganese-Chromium-Vanadium-Cobalt alloy, that I used to have a chunk of that had been used for decades to dress Silicon Carbide grinding wheels with seemingly no signs of wear...

I have a large, thick ring of beryllium bronze heading this way. 2.5% beryllium, I believe. Gonna use it for something, not sure what yet, but thinking poisonous sword handle ornaments and hilt parts, so that it will give a tiny dose of poison to the wielder every time it's used.

 

[Allan DeGroot]

Beryllium is only poisonous to people as an inhaled dust, but what I intend to use my own growing supply of Beryllium copper for is to cast myself a few daggers from, using a cold steel drop forged boot knife as a pattern. "Lost wax" casting method. But I'll make several out of Cupro-Nickel Bronze first, as I have a coffee can full of 75-25 Ni-Cu hardware, I can add 10%-12% Tin to, as I also have somewhere north of 100# of Tin.

If you really want to poison anyone holding it I'd go with Arsenical Bronze, though aquirion sufficient Metallic Arsenic to matter might prove a challenge, though looking for 10Lb might prove less suspicious than seeking a few ounces...

The Cold Steel forged boot knife is not really an original design anyway, it is nearly indistinguishable from a glass-reinforced nylon dagger I bought from Choat Machine tool co. 35 years ago, which differs only in the fact that there is an available Secure-X sheath for the CS version. I might go with the Choat as a pattern, as that knife is somewhat thicker along the spine and has a similar, but wider handle.

And if polished bronze is not your thing "blackening" it is child's play. Ever hear of "Liver of Sulfur"?

Bronze cutting tools don't rust and can be precisely sharpened with a good single cut file and look really cool when polished!

 

[Mecha]

Are you sure beryllium copper is only poisenous when inhaled? I heard that at 4% beryllium it will poison you through your skin, and certainly bringing it to melting temperature for casting will emit poison gas?

...though aquirion sufficient Metallic Arsenic to matter might prove a challenge, though looking for 10Lb might prove less suspicious than seeking a few ounces...

LOL!

Yep I've heard of liver of sulpher.

By the way, I've been working a bit with a fellow who is a physicist and/or materials scientist, who has formulated bronze that is mechanically like beryllium bronze but is non-toxic and is hardenable to such a degree that it can easily make a file. Gonna make some knives out of it and then possibly move onto a very serious project: re-creating the Sword of Goujian. Me and him figured out how it was done!

 

[Allan DeGroot]

First question, why is it so common for people the change the "f" in sulfur to an incorrect "ph"?
when you say "Sulphate" "ph" is correct, when you are referring to "sulfide" it is not, nor is is correct in regards to the element, "Sulfur"

Second point heating beryllium copper to melt it does put beryllium vapor into the air, but I don't intend
to do it inside or "huff" the fumes, and the reaction people have to beryllium is more akin to an allergic reaction and not all react to it, like many people do not react to "Poison Ivy", or some people react to Nickel, with a skin rash, while others do not. However those reactions are common with pure Beryllium and even with Be-Al & Be-Mg alloys, they are less common with Be-Cu.

BeCu is mostly hardened by an age hardening process, while classic simple bronze (Cu/Sn 90/10 or 88/12) with or without an arsenic content are generally "work hardened", and if done competently will result with bronze with about the mechanical properties of wrought Iron.

On another subject I'd dearly love to obtain some Bronze with a significant Manganese content... as manganese greatly increases wear & fatigue resistance in alloys, but the most accessable source of
Manganese is those Presidential dollar coins. And even disregarding the legality of melting coinage to obtain material, that source would be cost prohibitive.

But the BIG thing I wish to cast from classic (Non-Arsenical) Bronze is a Skillet.
I want the ultimate Egg frying skillet, something about 3/8" to 1/2" thick made of 90/10 Cu/Sn, and to prevent the undesireable reaction between the Sulfur content in the eggs and the Copper based alloy, An applied coating of pure Tin.

The special flux to recoat "formed" (typically French) copper cook ware, which is usually hammered from copper sheets, is easily available. I've seen it offered on Amazon.

 

[Mecha]

First question, why is it so common for people the change the "f" in sulfur to an incorrect "ph"?
when you say "Sulphate" "ph" is correct, when you are referring to "sulfide" it is not, nor is is correct in regards to the element, "Sulfur"

Second point heating beryllium copper to melt it does put beryllium vapor into the air, but I don't intend
to do it inside or "huff" the fumes, and the reaction people have to beryllium is more akin to an allergic reaction and not all react to it, like many people do not react to "Poison Ivy", or some people react to Nickel, with a skin rash, while others do not. However those reactions are common with pure Beryllium and even with Be-Al & Be-Mg alloys, they are less common with Be-Cu.

BeCu is mostly hardened by an age hardening process, while classic simple bronze (Cu/Sn 90/10 or 88/12) with or without an arsenic content are generally "work hardened", and if done competently will result with bronze with about the mechanical properties of wrought Iron.

On another subject I'd dearly love to obtain some Bronze with a significant Manganese content... as manganese greatly increases wear & fatigue resistance in alloys, but the most accessable source of
Manganese is those Presidential dollar coins. And even disregarding the legality of melting coinage to obtain material, that source would be cost prohibitive.

But the BIG thing I wish to cast from classic (Non-Arsenical) Bronze is a Skillet.
I want the ultimate Egg frying skillet, something about 3/8" to 1/2" thick made of 90/10 Cu/Sn, and to prevent the undesireable reaction between the Sulfur content in the eggs and the Copper based alloy, An applied coating of pure Tin.

The special flux to recoat "formed" (typically French) copper cook ware, which is usually hammered from copper sheets, is easily available. I've seen it offered on Amazon.

Both spellings are correct, but sulphur has a longer and more worldwide history of use. Americans adopted the spelling of sulfur with an "f", and that spelling's use has been leeching into the science world:

https://grammarist.com/spelling/sulfur-sulphur/

It follows that the reason people so often spell it with a "ph" is because they aren't chemists.

Your bronze skillet plan sounds good, I'd like to get ahold of something like that. A good friend of mine has an entire collection of copper pots and pans with a tin coating inside, and even has copper spatula, bowls, strainers...everything is copper or copper with tin coating. It's fantastic.

...as for me, obviously I'd also like a thick skillet made of pure titanium.

 

[JJHollowman]

I have a large, thick ring of beryllium bronze heading this way. 2.5% beryllium, I believe. Gonna use it for something, not sure what yet, but thinking poisonous sword handle ornaments and hilt parts, so that it will give a tiny dose of poison to the wielder every time it's used.

Sounds like a good book plot-
"Mecha hated the sword but as it was eternally tied to him he couldn't leave the poisoned thing even though it stole his life and sent him closer to becoming an undead horror every time he used it.. to even attempt to pick up another sword sent him into uncontrollable spasms. As the enemy warrior advanced, Mecha sighed and then grimly unsheathed The Viper. It's fanged hilt sunk into the same spot it always did, the ferociously terrifying but somehow soothing realization entering his mind like always.. another 6 days of life..gone.."

 

[Mecha]

Sounds like a good book plot-
"Mecha hated the sword but as it was eternally tied to him he couldn't leave the poisoned thing even though it stole his life and sent him closer to becoming an undead horror every time he used it.. to even attempt to pick up another sword sent him into uncontrollable spasms. As the enemy warrior advanced, Mecha sighed and then grimly unsheathed The Viper. It's fanged hilt sunk into the same spot it always did, the ferociously terrifying but somehow soothing realization entering his mind like always.. another 6 days of life..gone.."

I've seen some knives and machetes with ergos like that.

 

[Mecha]

I've seen and made some knives and machetes with ergos like that.

Fixed

 

[JJHollowman]

I've seen some knives and machetes with ergos like that.

Feel free to use that as part of any advertising campaign

 

[Allan DeGroot]

Both spellings are correct, but sulphur has a longer and more worldwide history of use. Americans adopted the spelling of sulfur with an "f", and that spelling's use has been leeching into the science world:

https://grammarist.com/spelling/sulfur-sulphur/

It follows that the reason people so often spell it with a "ph" is because they aren't chemists.

Your bronze skillet plan sounds good, I'd like to get ahold of something like that. A good friend of mine has an entire collection of copper pots and pans with a tin coating inside, and even has copper spatula, bowls, strainers...everything is copper or copper with tin coating. It's fantastic.

...as for me, obviously I'd also like a thick skillet made of pure titanium.

My father suggested that I could simply BUY copper cookware, but What fun is there in that? plus I've always been "cheap" and the prices of the usual hammered stuff is priced like it was hand hammered by Paul Revere out of copper plates stolen from the USS Constitution, but is still too thin to take full advantage of the materials thermal conduction. it takes around 10-12mm to properly distribute the heat the heat energy. what I'd REALLY like is an egg frying skillet made of commercially pure gold, which would also be non-stick and non-reactive, but horribly more expensive, on the order of a quarter million dollars.

I've seen Bronze skillets like the one I want to make in a Museum, that was displaying Roman-Era objects from Pompeii, the guy at the museum, didn't understand why it had an internal coating of Tin, until I explained it to him. I also told him the original "sand casting" was likely polished with a block of pumice before the tin was applied as a molten coating, which he would find was many times thicker than modern formed copper cook-ware, which is often electroplated. I did considerable research on copper cooking pots after I thought my mother had ruined (removed the plating) from part of the interior of a expen$ive copper sauce pan, by using it to hold peppers she was de-skinning by fire roasting

 

[Mecha]

My father suggested that I could simply BUY copper cookware, but What fun is there in that? plus I've always been "cheap" and the prices of the usual hammered stuff is priced like it was hand hammered by Paul Revere out of copper plates stolen from the USS Constitution, but is still too thin to take full advantage of the materials thermal conduction. it takes around 10-12mm to properly distribute the heat the heat energy. what I'd REALLY like is an egg frying skillet made of commercially pure gold, which would also be non-stick and non-reactive, but horribly more expensive, on the order of a quarter million dollars.

I've seen Bronze skillets like the one I want to make in a Museum, that was displaying Roman-Era objects from Pompeii, the guy at the museum, didn't understand why it had an internal coating of Tin, until I explained it to him. I also told him the original "sand casting" was likely polished with a block of pumice before the tin was applied as a molten coating, which he would find was many times thicker than modern formed copper cook-ware, which is often electroplated. I did considerable research on copper cooking pots after I thought my mother had ruined (removed the plating) from part of the interior of a expen$ive copper sauce pan, by using it to hold peppers she was de-skinning by fire roasting

Agreed on all points!

The only problem with being "cheap" and hammering your own thick copper pans, is that it's likely to be like fishing - "Fishing: the most expensive way to get dinner for free." And totally worth it.

 

[Allan DeGroot]

But I cannot hammer one out of material as thick as I'd like... I also dislike the idea of sand casting
one, because it leaves too coarse a surface micro-structure.

A Lost wax "investment casting" can be a smooth as the fine grained structure of the clay used
for the final single-use mold. Investment cast items have been found with the fingerprints of the maker cast into the item and in atleast one noteworthy incident a Forger of a faked "antiquity" was identified and convicted (of fraud) by such a finger-print. When casting a large bronze item like a 12" skillet, I'd be INCLINED to mark it that way intentionally and in essence place an impossible to forge Signature into the item forever. An "I Made This" that cannot be argued with! I could also intentionally mark those items and permanently identify them with their original contracted owner.

But it should be fairly obvious that I have no intention of making only one or two.
Think for a moment what I could sell them for, look at the price of top quality cast Iron cook-ware and add a zero (or more) to those nearly obscene prices.

I know a dozen or more people who would buy more than one if I made them.

I know that I'd be able to move the first fifty pieces as fast as I could cast them.

 

[Mecha]

But I cannot hammer one out of material as thick as I'd like... I also dislike the idea of sand casting
one, because it leaves too coarse a surface micro-structure.

A Lost wax "investment casting" can be a smooth as the fine grained structure of the clay used
for the final single-use mold. Investment cast items have been found with the fingerprints of the maker cast into the item and in atleast one noteworthy incident a Forger of a faked "antiquity" was identified and convicted (of fraud) by such a finger-print. When casting a large bronze item like a 12" skillet, I'd be INCLINED to mark it that way intentionally and in essence place an impossible to forge Signature into the item forever. An "I Made This" that cannot be argued with! I could also intentionally mark those items and permanently identify them with their original contracted owner.

But it should be fairly obvious that I have no intention of making only one or two.
Think for a moment what I could sell them for, look at the price of top quality cast Iron cook-ware and add a zero (or more) to those nearly obscene prices.

I know a dozen or more people who would buy more than one if I made them.

I know that I'd be able to move the first fifty pieces as fast as I could cast them.

A bold plan!