Titanium Axe... what say you?

[FortyTwoBlades]

I guess it's one of things you need to try in person to know. I'll take your word on it as a trusted source. Color me surprised that titanium suits this role.

You and me both! I'll try to take a video later today showing what I mean. It really is just a matter of the lighter weight making a different motion more efficient than another. I always try to "listen to the tool" and make technique adjustments accordingly and was surprised when I started slinging it like a machete and the performance substantially jumped. Like I said--it's weird stuff lol

I do plan on taking advantage of both the light weight option AND the "more material volume for equal weight" approaches in different designs. A design more towards the latter means that for a conventional hatchet head weight you could have a wider bit with a higher centerline through the cheeks and a nice big hammer poll, and in those use cases it'll still behave a LITTLE differently but would be substantially more or less like a "normal" steel hatchet, just with hulked up dimensions.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Just a very cursory snippet since I don't have a lot of time on my hands but I used some seasoned black locust so you know I mean business with it lol -- you can see that with a lighter head the higher speed makes a big difference, although it does come with a drawback of diminished accuracy. But it's a very capable little tool for a head weight of only 9.7oz in its reground state. The wood here is actually so hard that it rolled the edge on BOTH tools initially and I had to touch them both up at a slightly thicker angle at the very apex, and it really reinforced to me just how rapidly damage is erased from the titanium--a quick oscillation of an American Mutt pocket stone over both sides (literally less than 5 seconds) and it was back to sharp. Once thickened up just a few degrees in both tools and they both held up fine. Black locust is one of the few woods that really ding the hell out of the edges I routinely keep on most of my tools.

 

[SharpBits]

Thanks for that.

I see you were dressed appropriately for the season!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yeah it's a bit nippy out today and I wouldn't have survived long dressed like that, but the house is nice and toasty thanks to that wood heat!

 

[DocJD]

I'd love to try a Ti hawk , at least .

There I can see a clear advantage in less mass , quick changes in direction .

I'm having a bit of trouble with grasping the use advantage of Ti for wood chopping / splitting .

Speed ,with complete control, has a biomechanics limit in humans . Some more than others .

Letting the handle pivot in the hand , (or be somehow flexibly connected by chain , rope or whip/ switch devises ) can greatly increase velocity of course .

But these things are harder to control . I still have the scars .

I'm not saying it can't work , just not really understanding exactly how .

Also , sour grapes , 'cause Ti good for cutting is usually too expensive for me !

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I'd love to try a Ti hawk , at least .

There I can see a clear advantage in less mass , quick changes in direction .

I'm having a bit of trouble with grasping the use advantage of Ti for wood chopping / splitting .

Speed ,with complete control, has a biomechanics limit in humans . Some more than others .

Letting the handle pivot in the hand , (or be somehow flexibly connected by chain , rope or whip/ switch devises ) can greatly increase velocity of course .

But these things are harder to control . I still have the scars .

I'm not saying it can't work , just not really understanding exactly how .

Also , sour grapes , 'cause Ti good for cutting is usually too expensive for me !

For wood chopping/splitting it means being able to have a splitting-optimized geometry that remains light enough to not be a major encumbrance in transporting it to the use site or being able to have a wider bit than the given head weight would allow in steel while not having to be flat-cheeked or give up the presence of a poll.

 

[DocJD]

light enough to not be a major encumbrance in transporting it to the use site

I can certainly appreciate this aspect . I have some remote trails that get somewhat neglected for this very reason .

 

[Tritium]

Looking forward to learning more about this.

 

[The Zieg]

Looking for opinions on this....

Titanium Tomahawk Overlanding & Bushcraft Axe | Wrango Tools

Unleash the power of titanium. 2pc lightweight titanium axe comes with two handles: 18in handle for tasks & 11.5in for throwing & tasks. Includes blade sheath.

wrangotools.com

Gracie

My opinion (mostly "unencumbered by the thought process", as the Magliozzi brothers used to say) is guardedly positive. It is a sizeable piece of titanium for a reasonable price ($150 currently). It comes with two handles. It seems well ground without too many goofy, unnecessary complexities.

I would love to give one a try!

 

[waynemanning74]

I'd have to pass on that. Poor edge stability and edge holding isn't a good combo for an axe

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I'd have to pass on that. Poor edge stability and edge holding isn't a good combo for an axe

I would have said that too until getting my hands on one and beating the snot out of it. It's a little more delicate than steel is at low angles, but not by as much as I ever would have figured, and the damage irons out so easy it's kind of bonkers. Steel definitely holds an edge better, but properly treated titanium is actually quite good in terms of stability due to the high yield strength, and "good enough +" in edge holding. It's really more about just being mindful of the actual material hardness of what you're cutting due to the low abrasion resistance.

 

[waynemanning74]

I would have said that too until getting my hands on one and beating the snot out of it. It's a little more delicate than steel is at low angles, but not by as much as I ever would have figured, and the damage irons out so easy it's kind of bonkers. Steel definitely holds an edge better, but properly treated titanium is actually quite good in terms of stability due to the high yield strength, and "good enough +" in edge holding. It's really more about just being mindful of the actual material hardness of what you're cutting due to the low abrasion resistance.

I just think where I live in WV and being surrounded by and working with nothing but hard wood I'd prolly be worried about it. I also own way to many axes to be thinking about another.
I am surprised by your results though as I thought it couldn't be hardened. Thank you for sharing

 

[Mecha]

Looking for opinions on this....

Titanium Tomahawk Overlanding & Bushcraft Axe | Wrango Tools

Unleash the power of titanium. 2pc lightweight titanium axe comes with two handles: 18in handle for tasks & 11.5in for throwing & tasks. Includes blade sheath.

wrangotools.com

Gracie

I like that design better than most post-modern hatchets I see out there, regardless of material. It could certainly be improved though, and it's cool that FortyTwoBlades is working with them. Why? Because virtually everything he said in this thread is true.

Except the loss of accuracy thing. I find that accuracy INCREASES with a bit of practice when using a faster, lighter ti blade, and the user has much more control. It will prove easier to use with less fatigue.

Thin for the win with titanium alloys. It can be shaped in a way that takes full advantage of its unique properties to make a high-performance blade, which are much more than simply lighter weight than steel.

The alloys I use and heat-treatment techniques result in titanium that does NOT gall, smoosh, or take a set.

I am surprised by your results though as I thought it couldn't be hardened. Thank you for sharing

It's not hardened, it's left as-cast, and is probably TC-4 alloy, which is basically Grade 5/6al4v which is a nice all-purpose strong ti alloy. However the more it gets used, the more it will work-harden and it will just get better and better over time. After a year of use it could be be twice as good as when it arrived. It's a cool hatchet!

Mecha

Master of Titanium! You ever make an axe?

A few years back I messed around with making a few hatchets out of plate, some of which were axe-sized. What I really want to do is make axe heads with an eye, styled like those Basque hardwood axes. A well-made ti blade has no problem at all dealing with hard and tough wood, or even batoning through them.

Here are some examples:

And a couple of goofy youtube vids playing with them:

Cutting free-standing hard green bamboo as with a sharp sword is no joke. ^^^

This big one was funny!

Oh ya there was also this, LOL!

All of these examples have hardened blades.

 

[SharpBits]

Mic drop!

 

[jbmonkey]

I like that design better than most post-modern hatchets I see out there, regardless of material. It could certainly be improved though, and it's cool that FortyTwoBlades is working with them. Why? Because virtually everything he said in this thread is true.

Except the loss of accuracy thing. I find that accuracy INCREASES with a bit of practice when using a faster, lighter ti blade, and the user has much more control. It will prove easier to use with less fatigue.

Thin for the win with titanium alloys. It can be shaped in a way that takes full advantage of its unique properties to make a high-performance blade, which are much more than simply lighter weight than steel.

The alloys I use and heat-treatment techniques result in titanium that does NOT gall, smoosh, or take a set.



It's not hardened, it's left as-cast, and is probably TC-4 alloy, which is basically Grade 5/6al4v which is a nice all-purpose strong ti alloy. However the more it gets used, the more it will work-harden and it will just get better and better over time. After a year of use it could be be twice as good as when it arrived. It's a cool hatchet!



A few years back I messed around with making a few hatchets out of plate, some of which were axe-sized. What I really want to do is make axe heads with an eye, styled like those Basque hardwood axes. A well-made ti blade has no problem at all dealing with hard and tough wood, or even batoning through them.

Here are some examples:

And a couple of goofy youtube vids playing with them:

Cutting free-standing hard green bamboo as with a sharp sword is no joke. ^^^

This big one was funny!

Oh ya there was also this, LOL!

All of these examples have hardened blades.

so awesome. we need a mecha designed production version....one of these days.....

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I like that design better than most post-modern hatchets I see out there, regardless of material. It could certainly be improved though, and it's cool that FortyTwoBlades is working with them. Why? Because virtually everything he said in this thread is true.

Except the loss of accuracy thing. I find that accuracy INCREASES with a bit of practice when using a faster, lighter ti blade, and the user has much more control. It will prove easier to use with less fatigue.

Thin for the win with titanium alloys. It can be shaped in a way that takes full advantage of its unique properties to make a high-performance blade, which are much more than simply lighter weight than steel.

The alloys I use and heat-treatment techniques result in titanium that does NOT gall, smoosh, or take a set.



It's not hardened, it's left as-cast, and is probably TC-4 alloy, which is basically Grade 5/6al4v which is a nice all-purpose strong ti alloy. However the more it gets used, the more it will work-harden and it will just get better and better over time. After a year of use it could be be twice as good as when it arrived. It's a cool hatchet!



A few years back I messed around with making a few hatchets out of plate, some of which were axe-sized. What I really want to do is make axe heads with an eye, styled like those Basque hardwood axes. A well-made ti blade has no problem at all dealing with hard and tough wood, or even batoning through them.

Here are some examples:

And a couple of goofy youtube vids playing with them:

Cutting free-standing hard green bamboo as with a sharp sword is no joke. ^^^

This big one was funny!

Oh ya there was also this, LOL!

All of these examples have hardened blades.

The Wrango Tools models are hardened, not left as-cast, but as you know it's rather that titanium is precipitation hardened rather than hardened through quenching like steel is. The manufacturer they work with in Taiwan is a specialist with the material. I do hope to eventually persuade them to do some full-sized axes, or at least a boy's axe sized piece, but to start off we'll be using the existing eye size. I think you'll like what I'm cooking up.

 

[Mecha]

The Wrango Tools models are hardened, not left as-cast, but as you know it's rather that titanium is precipitation hardened rather than hardened through quenching like steel is. The manufacturer they work with in Taiwan is a specialist with the material. I do hope to eventually persuade them to do some full-sized axes, or at least a boy's axe sized piece, but to start off we'll be using the existing eye size. I think you'll like what I'm cooking up.

No doubt I will love what you're cooking up, like virtually everything you bake.

From your performance description the blade sounds like straight grade 5 or something like that. That's not a diss; like mentioned above the blade is fine and will just get better and better with use and is totally worth it. Titanium alloys in general are super underrated for this type of use. There may be some precipitation treatment after casting (standard process) that is based on typical aerospace or regular parameters, but if it's smooshing or galling then it hasn't been converted to Alpha Prime/titanium martensite form, which does require quenching. Nor can it, depending on the alloy. Standard protocols are for normalizing or refining grain and relieving stress, not hardening. Truly "hardening" titanium is totally insane and not a normal thing at all and nobody does it because it's almost impossible to do in batches.

Whenever I can get around to making some axe heads, they will be grade 5, but I'll weld on a bit of an alloy that is hardened but you might not even notice the difference. They will be way more that 150 bucks. Buy whatever FortyTwoBlades designs and this company makes, you will be very happy with the results. Titanium is better than you think.

I need to contact these Taiwan guys to cast me some axe heads LOL!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

No doubt I will love what you're cooking up, like virtually everything you bake.

From your performance description the blade sounds like straight grade 5 or something like that. That's not a diss; like mentioned above the blade is fine and will just get better and better with use and is totally worth it. Titanium alloys in general are super underrated for this type of use. There may be some precipitation treatment after casting (standard process) that is based on typical aerospace or regular parameters, but if it's smooshing or galling then it hasn't been converted to Alpha Prime/titanium martensite form, which does require quenching. Nor can it, depending on the alloy. Standard protocols are for normalizing or refining grain and relieving stress, not hardening. Truly "hardening" titanium is totally insane and not a normal thing at all and nobody does it because it's almost impossible to do in batches.

Whenever I can get around to making some axe heads, they will be grade 5, but I'll weld on a bit of an alloy that is hardened but you might not even notice the difference. They will be way more that 150 bucks. Buy whatever FortyTwoBlades designs and this company makes, you will be very happy with the results. Titanium is better than you think.

I need to contact these Taiwan guys to cast me some axe heads LOL!

No instances of what I'd call smooshing or galling. There have only been very minor rolls at very low angles. They're getting ~42 HRC and +120,000 PSI (converts to, like, 827.3708 MPa), I was just running the stuff at very low angles to see the limits of it, and the edge damage that occurred on black locust was more like very very tiny "fleabite" chipping. The rolling that occurred was more like having a folded wire edge--very shallow and instantly removed with a few swipes of a stone. The only scratches were from abrasive wear where one grain of sand scratched the side of the bit. Not sure how those numbers line up with your experiences but it does seem to be higher than stats listed for straight Grade 5.

And yeah I'm very much a believer now. I wouldn't call it an upgrade vs. steel, but it's also not a DOWNgrade, either. Just different performance qualities that allow different shapes and weights and stuff, so it's a true sidegrade material. Very cool stuff.

 

[Mecha]

No instances of what I'd call smooshing or galling. There have only been very minor rolls at very low angles. They're getting ~42 HRC and +120,000 PSI (converts to, like, 827.3708 MPa), I was just running the stuff at very low angles to see the limits of it, and the edge damage that occurred on black locust was more like very very tiny "fleabite" chipping. The rolling that occurred was more like having a folded wire edge--very shallow and instantly removed with a few swipes of a stone. The only scratches were from abrasive wear where one grain of sand scratched the side of the bit. Not sure how those numbers line up with your experiences but it does seem to be higher than stats listed for straight Grade 5.

And yeah I'm very much a believer now. I wouldn't call it an upgrade vs. steel, but it's also not a DOWNgrade, either. Just different performance qualities that allow different shapes and weights and stuff, so it's a true sidegrade material. Very cool stuff.

Those are exactly the specs and behaviors of cast straight grade 5, with a couple extra HRC points attributable to a less pure alloy. For blade use, less pure is better than more pure. Grade 23, which is 6al4v ELI (extra-low interstitial, super pure) is the worst of the 6al4v iterations for a blade precisely because it's so pure. The miniscule impurities in basic alpha-beta alloys like grade 5 imbue a micro-alloying effect and improve everything, including hardness and work-hardenability.

Whenever people ask me about titanium blades, I'm gonna say a lot of weird and true stuff nobody cares about, and none of this really even matters.

What matters is:

-Is it what it's said to be, a cast titanium alloy hatchet? Yes.
-Does it do what it's supposed to do? Yes.
-Are people happy with it? Yes

Seems like a good deal to me, I bet it's awesome and your input will make the design even better, and I insist that in general ti alloys are simply misunderstood and underrated for something like an axe. I straight-up want one, but don't have the extra cash right now because I make titanium stuff by hand which is really dumb. I'm dumb and should have had axe heads cast a long time ago. I did look into having stuff cast by an aerospace parts company that uses a hardenable ti alloy, but the cost was astronomical. Same for 3D printing. And for long thin stuff like swords and machetes, forging is the only process that yields the results I want.

Someday in like the year 2060 I'll be a homeless old man with heavy metal poisoning, sitting on a street corner, and I'll say, "I used to make legendary titanium alloy swords, you know!" And some punk on a hoverboard will be like, "Ok boomer, whatever. Everyone knows titanium doesn't have enough rockwells to hold an edge." Then he'll power up the hoverboard and speed off, kicking dust in my face, and I'll probably stroke out right then and there because that's what the Rockwell hardness thing does to my blood pressure.

 

[Acutereference]

Interesting, and new to me info. Thanks!