Titanium Handles

[BurkStar]

I don't know about Ti rated strength, especially with all of the different Ti alloys, but my main reason for a Ti preference is weight and the relative strength commiserate with the weight. I'm small enough that weight definitely makes a difference. I wear a Ti Omega SMP, Ti alloy Oakley sunglasses (busted my nose three times so weight is definitely a factor with glasses), Ti prescription glasses, 90% of my folders are ti handled or bolstered, I've even got a Jim Smyth Ti handled fixed blade and I'd love to get a Ti flashlight and a Ti pen. The only thing I wouldn't buy with Ti components are pistols.

 

[GarageBoy]

Ti pen, Retro 51 has this REALLY nice Tornado in Blue Ti for like $30-40.

 

[Morgoth412]

These materials are fine for inlays, but are certainly not comparable to titanium in terms of strength. I, too, believe that titanium is the ideal handle material. It doesn't have anything to do with what's "cool", it's all about performance. If you want a wood handle, buy an Opinel. Nothing wrong with that. But I personally prefer Sebbies.

I thought I was clear in my point. Ti is stronger, but the other matierials are more then strong enough. If you manage to snap carbon fiber handles during normal use then you are freakishly strong, or your definition of normal use is wrong.

Carbon Fiber handles are used as full handles on many knives. (WH and Spyderco are two good examples)

Nathan, lets not compare sub $10 production knives to $300 hand finished knives. I think if you had CRK make a G10 dual linered Sebbie it would perform as well as a Ti handled one. People are going to freak at that statement, but Chris would make it work I have no doubt.

The origional question was is there a practical reason for Ti handles. The answer is no. Ti has advantages, and is great if you can get it, but its not the best material for handles and certainly not practical when other materials will work fine.
-Kevin

 

[guy g]

Chuck, Well first,I dont believe that VG10 is advertised as a premium steel. Many of its componants are close to 440c which is also a good steel. S30v exceeds BG42 in carbon and Vanadium and BG42 was "the " steel for a long time. I carry my Small Sebenza and I carry my Delica FRN and the Sebenza out holds the edge. Also there are no flex or problems with the FRN as noted by others here. edit=add... its a good handle material.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

guy g, thanks for the clarification.

I have read VG10 advertised as premium by Falkniven and Spyderco. It is similar to 440C in composition which I agree is a great steel. However, VG10 also contains cobalt and vanadium which IMO make a significant difference.

We package knife materials everyday for orders so we get to cut LOTS of cardboard. I've found cardboard to be a very good test for knife steels.

I like a sticky sharp edge that easily catches your skin and also easily pushes through cardboard. Comparing stainless steels buy push cutting (not slicing or sawing) cardboard has returned some interesting results. Our experience for stainless steels rates as follows:

#1 - BG42
#2 - VG10 (very close to BG42)
#3 - S30V

An interesting trait of S30V is its tendency to very quickly lose its sticky/scarry sharp edge, then stay "OK" sharp for a really long time. The other two steels keep the sticky/scarry sharp edge much longer and then need to be resharpened.

As far as using titanium for folding knife handles, it is strong and light which allows us to carry more knives in our pockets without our pants falling down.

 

[guy g]

Chuck, maybe I've misread the Spyderco stuff. The Colbalt and Vanadium definatley set VG10 apart. Your test results are very interesting. And using the same "material" gives a good base for comparing. Now we get into the fine points of heat treat and edge angle. And that discussion can go all day!
guy

 

[Little claw]

I'm with Morgoth!

The main reason is that, contrary to what Planterz said:

It's lighter and stronger than the same amount (volume) of steel.

...I always thought that steel was stronger than Ti for the same volume (volume being, perhaps, more important a quantity in knives than mass due to the amounts used and relative weight penalty - compared to aircraft, where mass is primary - let's not forget that most aircraft structure is the weaker Aluminium, but includes steel where necessary). I think the misunderstanding here is due to the Ti hype. I have always seen Ti as a compromise between strength and low mass.

I believe that steel is stronger than Ti, size for size, but possibly not weight for weight. (I presume this takes into account optimised alloys and HT) This is why Spyderco can get away with thin steel liners when Benchmade need thicker Ti ones, and the reason that the mini afck had thin steel liners.

I'd be interested to know for sure, as my preference would then change to a cost:benefit comparison (like FRN vs. G10 - my edc is a calypso jr ltwt) rather than absolute superiority, but I'm pretty sure that Ti blades are weaker than steel ones (although possibly more ductile/less brittle due to hardness of the steel - so possibly an unfair comparison for the steel) - can anyone help here?

My answer to the original question is that if you are willing to pay the extra for a lighter knife, then do, but then an aircraft Al handle is plenty strong enough for any folding knife, see any Microtech. The properties of corrosion resistance and non magnetic stand - but what are the advantages to you when you have a steel blade, anyway? If your knife is so important to you that you can't afford to let it rust, then keep it clean. I've never seen a knife rendered useless by rust that wasn't older than I am ever going to last, and there are plenty hundreds of years old that are still functional, made without the benefit of modern electrochemistry.

My only exception to all this is that I prefer the weight of my ti butterfly knives for flipping, but if I needed to carry a proper user it would be the MT dragon fly or SWAT tiger, both Al.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Titanium is great for balisongs with manipulation purposes in mind. Its extremely Durable and is relativly light, great for flipping...

 

[hardheart]

With only few exceptions, ti handles have integral locks. Steel is the only material comparable for such use. Ti has obvious high points for such use. Is strength an issue? If it is, then why are there people saying zytel is strong enough? It doesn't compare to ti or steel. In normal use, accidents happen. Accidents that would destroy a linerless cf or g10 handle.

 

[Nathan S]

Nathan, lets not compare sub $10 production knives to $300 hand finished knives. I think if you had CRK make a G10 dual linered Sebbie it would perform as well as a Ti handled one.

You're just confirming what I wrote about carbon fiber, G10, etc. being good inlay materials.

Now, please, if you'd like to address the content of my post, I'd like an example of a carbon fiber handled knife that's as strong as titanium.

 

[Morgoth412]

You're just confirming what I wrote about carbon fiber, G10, etc. being good inlay materials.

Now, please, if you'd like to address the content of my post, I'd like an example of a carbon fiber handled knife that's as strong as titanium.

Not AS strong as titanium. I said strong ENOUGH. In fact I have said this in every post I have made, and everytime someone has said I claimed other materials(non-steel) to be as strong as Ti. I have done no such thing, only claimed they where strong ENOUGH to take everyday use. Spyderco's Carbon Fiber Police is a good example of this if you want one.

I don't consider G10 with steel liners an inlay, but if you do then take the liners out of the equation. They aren't really necessary. Spyderco's G10 Military is a good example of a well done work knife using just one liner for the liner lock. It will take just as much use as Ti handles, and while not as strong in the lab under tests, in real life use, it WILL hold up just as well as your Sebenza. I don't know anyone claiming their Sebenza handles failed them, nor anyone claiming their Military handles failed them. Both work great.
-Kevin

 

[Nathan S]

Not AS strong as titanium. I said strong ENOUGH.

I don't know, nor do I really care, what you consider to be "strong enough". If you don't mind, however, I believe I will decide what is and what isn't strong enough for my purposes.

They aren't really necessary. Spyderco's G10 Military is a good example of a well done work knife using just one liner for the liner lock. It will take just as much use as Ti handles, and while not as strong in the lab under tests, in real life use, it WILL hold up just as well as your Sebenza.

Gimme a break. This statement only proves that you've never used a Sebenza.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Morgoth412,

For clarification purposes lets limit the discussion to folding knife handles only.

In your arguments you have never discussed how manufacturing different materials can justify using more expensive materials.

Some materials like carbon fiber, G10 and micarta have manufacturing limitations. For example, these materials sometimes have problems when cut with a waterjet. The layers can delaminate. The materials also cannot be fine blanked or cut by EDM. Resolving these problems can be achieved by using a different materials like titanium or stainless steel. When using wire EDM, a 2" stack of scales can be cut at the same time with a tolerance of .0002!

Carbon fiber, G10 and micarta will not hold up or wear quickly when used directly against blade steel for a lockback or liner lock. If the liner lock wear problems could be resolved, carbon fiber, G10 and micarta would have to be manufactured pre-bent. You cannot put the bend in them after they are built in sheet form.

Another manufacturing problem with carbon fiber, G10 and micarta is the creation and disposal of waste. The dust created from machining these materials is nasty and requires proper disposal. Titanium chips are recycled and part of the cost of materials recouped.

In an earlier post you wrote that other materials have better grip. Titanium can be machined to have any level you desire, equal or surpassing the other materials you listed. Have you held the new Kershaw Bump? The ridges provide tremendous grip to keep the knife from sliding forward or backward.

Think of materials from a manufacturers point of view. If the knife design has a high enough price point, titanium is easy to manufacture and sell.

The biggest problems with using stainless steel over titanium is weight and customer demand.

========================

Some earlier point made by other people need to be clarified.
* Titanium weighs about 60% of steel.
* Titanium is stronger than steel by weight.
* Two identical sized parts, one steel and one titanium. The steel part is much stronger.
* Titanium is cool.

 

[Morgoth412]

I don't know, nor do I really care, what you consider to be "strong enough". If you don't mind, however, I believe I will decide what is and what isn't strong enough for my purposes.





Gimme a break. This statement only proves that you've never used a Sebenza.

Nathan,
No need to be hostile. From what I remember of you in other posts you always seemed like a gentleman and I would hope I can continue to see you in such a light. If debate is not allowed here I can stop posting if it makes you feel better. Then everyone can agree Ti is the best in peace.

I was simply clarifying that I never said any of those materials were as strong as Titanium. I said they where strong enough for daily use, but I never said they were as strong as Titanium. If you disagree with them being good daily user materials then that is your oppinion and I cannot change it. But if so it wouldn't make sense then how such materials have been used on EDC knives long before Ti became popular.

I have never used a Sebenza, although I have handled a few. I have however used tons of knives on a daily basis. All of them, not having Ti handles by the way. From this, I can comfortably say that they hold up to years of use (and sometimes abuse when lended ) just fine. They hold up well, just like Ti.
-Kevin

 

[Morgoth412]

Morgoth412,

For clarification purposes lets limit the discussion to folding knife handles only.

In your arguments you have never discussed how manufacturing different materials can justify using more expensive materials.

Some materials like carbon fiber, G10 and micarta have manufacturing limitations. For example, these materials sometimes have problems when cut with a waterjet. The layers can delaminate. The materials also cannot be fine blanked or cut by EDM. Resolving these problems can be achieved by using a different materials like titanium or stainless steel. When using wire EDM, a 2" stack of scales can be cut at the same time with a tolerance of .0002!

Carbon fiber, G10 and micarta will not hold up or wear quickly when used directly against blade steel for a lockback or liner lock. If the liner lock wear problems could be resolved, carbon fiber, G10 and micarta would have to be manufactured pre-bent. You cannot put the bend in them after they are built in sheet form.

Another manufacturing problem with carbon fiber, G10 and micarta is the creation and disposal of waste. The dust created from machining these materials is nasty and requires proper disposal. Titanium chips are recycled and part of the cost of materials recouped.

In an earlier post you wrote that other materials have better grip. Titanium can be machined to have any level you desire, equal or surpassing the other materials you listed. Have you held the new Kershaw Bump? The ridges provide tremendous grip to keep the knife from sliding forward or backward.

Think of materials from a manufacturers point of view. If the knife design has a high enough price point, titanium is easy to manufacture and sell.

The biggest problems with using stainless steel over titanium is weight and customer demand.

========================

Some earlier point made by other people need to be clarified.
* Titanium weighs about 60% of steel.
* Titanium is stronger than steel by weight.
* Two identical sized parts, one steel and one titanium. The steel part is much stronger.
* Titanium is cool.

Good post and great points Chuck! I had not thought of the argument from the manufacturing point of view, and can see now how it would be benificial for them to use Ti. (And yes, Ti is cool)

I'm still going to say that there isn't a practical reason to go out of your way to buy a Ti handled knife though. As I have said in other posts, other materials will work just fine. I can see now though, that for makers, Ti can certainly be a practical choice.
-Kevin

 

[Nathan S]

Nathan,
No need to be hostile. From what I remember of you in other posts you always seemed like a gentleman and I would hope I can continue to see you in such a light. If debate is not allowed here I can stop posting if it makes you feel better. Then everyone can agree Ti is the best in peace.

I was simply clarifying that I never said any of those materials were as strong as Titanium. I said they where strong enough for daily use, but I never said they were as strong as Titanium. If you disagree with them being good daily user materials then that is your oppinion and I cannot change it. But if so it wouldn't make sense then how such materials have been used on EDC knives long before Ti became popular.

I have never used a Sebenza, although I have handled a few. I have however used tons of knives on a daily basis. All of them, not having Ti handles by the way. From this, I can comfortably say that they hold up to years of use (and sometimes abuse when lended ) just fine. They hold up well, just like Ti.
-Kevin

Kevin, I certainly don't mean to be hostile, and apologize if that's the impression I gave. It's just that I tend to lose patience when I read sweeping statements that are presented as fact, but which, in reality, are nothing more than opinions. It's fine to say that you like G10 or carbon fiber handled knives. However, it is condescending, not to say ignorant, to categorically state that this is "strong enough", implying that anyone who buys a ti handled knife is doing so for the "cool factor", and not for the sake of performance.

Apparently you think titanium is "overkill" for EDC purposes, but, hey, that's really going to depend on personal needs and tastes, isn't it? Plus, some knife designs simply would not work if it were not for titanium. The framelock, for example, would be impossible with a plastic handle. Sure, you could use steel, but only for smaller knives (and here the Camillus EDC springs to mind). But let's consider the Cuda Maxx. Can you imagine what that thing would weigh if the handle were steel? No, the Maxx works only if titanium is used as a handle material.


And, really, handling a Sebenza isn't enough. If you haven't actually used one for a significant period of time, you really aren't qualified to comment on its performance. I have done things with mine that I guarantee no plastic handled knife could survive. Do yourself a favor, buy a Sebbie. I know, they're expensive. However, they come up pretty regularly, and at pretty good prices, on the Knife Exchange forum.

 

[Morgoth412]

Kevin, I certainly don't mean to be hostile, and apologize if that's the impression I gave. It's just that I tend to lose patience when I read sweeping statements that are presented as fact, but which, in reality, are nothing more than opinions. It's fine to say that you like G10 or carbon fiber handled knives. However, it is condescending, not to say ignorant, to categorically state that this is "strong enough", implying that anyone who buys a ti handled knife is doing so for the "cool factor", and not for the sake of performance.

Apparently you think titanium is "overkill" for EDC purposes, but, hey, that's really going to depend on personal needs and tastes, isn't it? Plus, some knife designs simply would not work if it were not for titanium. The framelock, for example, would be impossible with a plastic handle. Sure, you could use steel, but only for smaller knives (and here the Camillus EDC springs to mind). But let's consider the Cuda Maxx. Can you imagine what that thing would weigh if the handle were steel? No, the Maxx works only if titanium is used as a handle material.


And, really, handling a Sebenza isn't enough. If you haven't actually used one for a significant period of time, you really aren't qualified to comment on its performance. I have done things with mine that I guarantee no plastic handled knife could survive. Do yourself a favor, buy a Sebbie. I know, they're expensive. However, they come up pretty regularly, and at pretty good prices, on the Knife Exchange forum.

Nathan,
I don't think I will ever agree with you on this one, but I can certainly understand your comment on the Ralph knife. It would be hard to do but for Ti. I still beleive my origional point of view though, that other materials will hold up to hard use just as well as Ti. I don't like Striders or Chinooks but I feel that they would be able to take the same abuse as a Sebenza. I don't know it for a fact, just my thought.

I'm not so much commenting on what a Sebenza can do as to what other knives can do. I'm sure the Sebenza is a great knife, but I will probably never buy one. A $50 dollar Calypso Jr. will last me the rest of my life, and I would never want for a better slicer.
-Kevin

 

[HoB]

I have to agree with Morgoth and there is not much opinion to it either. Someone said Mircarta isn't durable....well this is what Busse says about Mircarta:
>It has a higher tensile strength than steel and is impervious to changes in >temperature. It will not swell, warp, or crack, even under adverse >conditions, once it is on the knife.....The inventors of Formica (kitchen >counter tops) had borrowed so heavily from Micarta technology that the >name "Formica" is short for the term "Formerly Micarta". Think of that the >next time you drop a skillet on the kitchen counter....

I have seen someone trying to break CF with a hammer, a big one....and failed. I skate on carbon fiber boots, I put pressure on CF with my legs which will easily fracture a hand or an arm.

Glass reinforced Kevlar has enormous tensil strengths, which can be improved to rediculus levels by using carbon fiber reinforced Kevlar. Fact is simply that hightech "plastic" done right will match or beat most other materials. Who realizes for example that Kevlar was developed for bias belted tires and is much higher performing for that application than steel. What really beat out Kevlar in the tire industry was the catch phrase "steel re-inforced". At that time nobody knew about Kevlar as bullet proof material.

There is a reason why planes are made from these high tech reinforced "plastics". Ti is used only in the engines and that because they have to withstand thousands of degrees heat.

Lastly, a knife always breaks at the weakest point: the pivot or lock....long before any well made handle of any type goes.

What remains true is that plastics will melt at much lower temperatures than steel or god forbit Ti, but really...the temperature at which FRN deforms is much higher than what I would be willing to expose my hand to! And "plastics" machine poorly, especially layered "plastics". Just take a look at the holes in the CF Delica.

So the use of Ti really goes back to the "feel" of metal in the hand (which, I totally agree is MUCH nicer than plastic) at much lower weight than steel, being extremely corrosion proof. Heck I am willing to shell out the money for a Ti handle anytime, just for the feel and looks, and don't think it is hype either. But to list strength as reason for a Ti handle I find quite doubed full. For that we would also have to define precisely what "strenght" we are talking about: tensile strength, shear strength, hardness, toughness etc.

 

[KeithAM]

FWIW, like folding knife handles, racing bicycle frames are made with steel, aluminum, titanium and carbon fiber. Carbon fiber and ti are considered the high-tech materials. The arguably most exotic frames actually mix ti and carbon fiber together as structural elements. Lance Armstrong has won the past 5 Tour de France races on American-made Trek carbon fiber bikes that weigh about 15-17 pounds fully equiped.

The most sophisticated bike equipment maker, Campagnolo, is using more and more carbon fiber in its components.

However I believe it would not be possible to make a carbon fiber integral framelock because carbon is not springy enough. Also, although it is strong, it is not abrasion resistent, so I believe a steel tang/carbon fiber lockbar interface would soon wear to the point of being unsafe.

I've never heard of a zytel bike frame. I'd guess zytel would not be stiff enough -- bike frames need to be stiff to be efficient.

I ride a ti bike with a carbon fiber fork -- and I trust both materials not to fail as I'm going 45 mph down a hill.

 

[Planterz]

I have seen someone trying to break CF with a hammer, a big one....and failed. I skate on carbon fiber boots, I put pressure on CF with my legs which will easily fracture a hand or an arm.

This is true. I myself have carbon fibre bar ends on my mountain bike, and it's been dropped many times on them, and they're still holding. However, they're scarred like mad.

That's what I meant when I said CF and micarta aren't durable. THey can take impacts and stress amazingly. But under normal environment useage, they get battered and scarred very easily. Everyday stuff like dropping it on the ground, having it in your pocket with keys, etc will turn some beautiful carbon fiber or micarta into ugly garbage in short time. Even a well-taken care of one will wear dull spots where you grip it.

Steel wins in this catagory. Titanium is actually pretty soft compared to steel. But it's way more durable than carbon fiber, micarta, G10, or Zytel.

Carbon fiber looks great, but I'd be hesitant to use a knife with CF handles or inserts as a daily user.