Titanium (mission knives)

Rick, I assume we are talking about the ATAK or DSU2 or similar. In this case I don't understand your comment about the tang rusting. Are you saying that the corrosion takes places because the water goes between the epoxy and the tang? This is rather odd. I would have assumed if for example I coated a piece of steel with a decent epoxy it would make a vapor barrier, am I mistaken?

In regards to the strength of the Ti knife then I won't be putting a bar on it so if it withstood you guys doing that I doubt I'll be able to damage it freehand. Any comment on my question regarding the durability of the MPF?

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

The picture shown looks like the ones I have in stock. The blade appears excessively dark to me in that picture, the ones I have are more of a dark matte grey on the blade sort of like the rest of the knife as shown in that picture. Retail price is $386. For those of you who really want one but, are now suffering from sticker shock, contact me OFFLINE about a lay away plan. The price will still be the same, just more smaller bites out of the wallet instead of one big chunk if you prefer. If you desire yours without the partial serrations, that can probably be arranged pending a call to Mission. I'll cut it off there as this is getting tad too comercial for this forum.

Thanks!
Sid

[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited 30 March 1999).]
 
Rick, I just reread your post above and was a little surprised at the following:

We do not recommend the steel knives for demining, scuba diving, prying, chopping, etc.
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Ok, I can understand the demining and diving, but no prying and especially no chopping I don't understand. A2 is what Busse used to make the BM and SteelHeart out of and it generally thought of as a very tough steel.

In any case I do appreciate how open you are about the less than positive aspects of your knives (in particular mentioning the burring aspect on the Ti). That just about settles the matter for me. Regarding getting a plain edged MPF like Sid mentioned roughly how much of a wait would I be looking at?

-Cliff
 
Cliff - I didn't want to mention the exact manufacturer because I didn't want him to come over here and lock the thread :-)

But, your assumptions are correct. When applying epoxy by hand, there are air bubbles in the mixture. This coupled with any residual contamination on the bare tang (oil, grease, grinding dust, etc.) causes small bare areas between the tang and handle. This coupled with the fact that sea water seems to get into every small nook, cranny and crevice and is very very damaging to equipment, sea water will work its way into these "exposed" areas. As soon as the "bare" O1 starts to rust, it is only a matter of time until the epoxy fails. Once this happens, good-by handle. The MPK is done differently in two ways, (1) injection molding - we insert the tang into a mold, the mold closes off and the Hytrel/Kevlar mixture is pumped into the cavity - no epoxy to fail. This mixture is HOT when molded, and when it cools, it shrinks tight to the tang. (2) design of the tang - the MPK's tang is larger at the rear than it is at the front, therefore, it is impossible for the MPKs handle to slide off. I believe the "other knife" is smaller at the rear than the front.

MPK testing - I have the original knife testing document from the NAVEODTECHCTR that was used to justify the NSN for the MPK. During the final test, they loaded the middle of the knifeblade with 650 pounds. They then increased the weight with the ram press. The MPK-Ti tip finally broke at just shy of 1,000 pounds. That's a tough knife! They then tried to remove the handle. They took over an hour using a hack-saw and a cold chisel. The handle eventually came off :-)

MPF - The only strength testing that I know of done on this knife was by Kim Breed and written up in Blade. Kim rammed the MPF into a tree, and, to test the lock and tip strength, completed 12 pull-ups by holding onto the handle with both hands. Kim is 195 pounds.

Steel blades - the reason I say that is because I have seen way too many broken steel blades in my career. Supposedly indestructible knifeblades I have seen cracked in half. Thumb sized pieces missing along the cutting edge. In my opinion, A2 is probably the best steel for a steel bladed knife. Tough and durable. But, we do not want to mislead any customers. A steel MPK or steel MPF will make great knives, just know the limitations when using - that's all I meant by that. The harder a material, the more brittle it is - period. If there is shock applied to hardened steel, there is a good chance it will crack - period. It doesn't matter who the manufacturer is. We just want the user to be aware and be honest.

We are cutting the next folder blades as we speak. There will be non-serrated ones available. Please talk with Sid who will tell us his "wish-list". We will make sure we have enough non-serrates for these orders.

Sincerely,
Rick
 
Ok Rick you sold me on the Ti MPK. Regarding the pullup's done on the folder that's sounds at about the level of strength I am looking for. Did Kim notice any blade play after the pull-ups were performed?

By the way, does the blade on the MPF have a false edge? If so can I get one without it? Regarding the plain edge instead of the combo serrated that sounds great. I have already spoke to Sid about my concerns and he will be contacting you.

-Cliff
 
I guess that is one of the reasons I like the MPF1-Ti other than it's overall size and construction including the lock, because the blade is less brittle. It does have to be sharpened sooner than other High Grade Hardened steels that is why I didn't like it at first, but I guess that is what sharpeners are made for. Never been real crazy about titanium blades because they dull quicker, but I guess I would have to choose sharpening more often over breakage or chipping of the blade. I had to re think my feelings regarding ti blades, I feel much better about them now then what I used to. So what, I have to sharpen them a little more often. Decided to order a couple more of these MPF1-Ti knives, never can have too many of a knife you like.

Talking to John at Mission Knives I brought up a question regarding the serrations being on the other side of the blade than what are normally seen on other knives. Mission puts the serrations on the right side because that is the side you are actually cutting with, not the other. (right handed knives)
I never thought about that before, but John and Mission Knives are right, the right side for a right handed knife is the correct side to have the serrations on them. Wonder why other makers or manufactures haven't thought of this?

Hmmmm,

Mark

" Knife Collectors Are Sharp People
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Just saw on the "other forum" Walt Welch is at his best posting my responses directly on the Mad Dog Forum. Anyway, Walt, this is what I saw, unless they switched knives on me, that is exactly what happened.

Anyway...Cliff, Kim did not see any blade play after the tests, he returned the knife and I think it is still sitting in the safe. When Kim returned it, we took a very careful look at it and there was nothing bent or damaged on the knife, except for some little scratches on the handles. I cleaned it up a little and it looks almost good enough to sell as new - but I won't. The MPF has a slight false edge, really just enough to break the edges. It looks good and doesn't take any strength away from the blade. Please have Sid get in touch with us and we will get you what you want.

Mark - Thanks for the kind words. Other manufacturers are getting into the right handed serrations. KaBar now puts the serrations on the right side, as well as a few more I am seeing. Hopefully this will continue to be a trend. The customer will benefit since "right handed knives" perform better for right handed people.

Right handed people need serrations on the right hand side of the blade, left handed people need serrations on the left hand side of the blade. Simple as that.

Rick
 
Rick you are absolutely correct. I posted on the Mad Dogs Forum, and further said that I thought your comments were obviously false and egregious.

I based this on my experience of living right next to the ocean for many years.

Another poster has advised me that tool steel can, in fact, rust as quickly as what you stated. Even ATS-34, the other, knowledgeable, tester advises, can spot with corrosion within a day.

Therefore, I apologize. I thought you were wildly exaggerating the situation at best. It now seems your observations may be valid.

Since I have several Mad Dog knives, but not a single Ti Mission Knife, feel free to send me one, gratis, and I will conduct corrosion studies myself.
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Once again, I apologize. Walt Welch
 
I guess I misunderstood. I thought we were talking about a fresh hard chromed O-1 knife. I will agree that rust will occur were there is no chrome at a rapid rate. But assuming the knife to be in good shape with all it's hard chrome intact, will it really rust in half a day? I don't think so myself. Now as to wear. If you are saying that the hard chrome will wear as a result of the sheath rubbing, then any other coating will wear considerably faster.
 
Rick, I have already placed my order with Sid. The MPF should complement the Spyderco Military quite well.

Cobalt the rusting comment was just in regards to the unprotected edge. The edge will rust much faster than any other part of the knife as the finish there is much rougher. All the scratches greatly increase the surface area which greatly increase the rate of oxidation.

With regards to the HC coming off this will not happen with just the sheath rubbing on it. It will not even happen while chopping through soft metals. The only way I could knock the new HC off was to use the TUSK as a hammer on another knife (splitting wood and such). When Rick mentions the HC being rubbed off by the sheath it is based on the effect of rust starting under the coating and destroying the bond.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, so the edge of the MD's does not have chrome on it, it has been removed. They sharpen after they chrome? I thought that I read on the MD forum that the MD knives edge's have the Hard Chrome? If this is not true, then it is quite obvious that the edge will rust readily.

I know that scratches increase the rate of corrosion, but not exactly for the reasons you mentioned(more surface area). It is more due to indentations or marks(like bead blasting or a scratch) that will hold moisture more readily allowing more corrosion. That is probably what you meant. We discussed this in the corrosion thread.
 
Walt, you are an honorable man. I reported exactly what I saw, your apology is accepted. What we are trying to do at Mission is to tell the truth and be always honest and upfront with our customers, because without customers, there would be no Mission.

Cobalt - this was a fresh knife. There was no hardchrome at the cutting edge and this part of the knife was rusting. I saw another knife that was used in a few sea water ops that had the hardchrome flaking off due to sea water working its way in between the hardchrome and the steel, and the steel starting to rust. I apologize if I was confusing. I am not saying that a steel knife is a bad thing, on the contrary. I am saying to use a given material for a given application. Tool steel knives perform very well in dry land operations, they do not perform well in seawater ops. Mission is starting to ship our first steel MPKs. I will never recommend to a customer to use the A2 steel MPK knife in seawater. If they want to go diving, please use the titanium.

We are using an aluminum titanium nitride PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) coating technology. How it works:

All material to be coated is enclosed in a vacuum chamber. This chamber is then gently heated to a specific temperature. Deposition material, in this case titanium, is vaporized by means of an electric arc. These now highly charged titanium ions are mixed with a nitrogen gas forming a plasma. This positively charged titanium plasma is attracted to the negatively charged part to be coated. Ion by Ion, the titanium bonds to the part, growing a thin, hard film on the surface. We can get up to 6 microns at between 3500-4000 Vickers hardness out of this coating. We ran a sample MPK last year and I could not scratch the tang even using a nail! Hard chrome has properties of about 1000 Vickers and 2.5-5 microns thickness. Based on all of our research, AlTiN should outperform hard chrome.

Thanks Cliff. When I get a chance, I will post a photo on our website of my personal MadDog SEAL ATAK. About 3-4 years ago, a Lt. out of ST5 begged me to trade my MPK for his SEAL ATAK which I did. It has been sitting in my desk at home and has some logo on the right side (from memory) like "NAVSPECWARGRUONE" number 062 - or something like that, I will have to pull it back out and take a closer look. the Lt. said it was barely used but shows alot of sheath wear on the knife blade. Is this knife worth anything???

Walt, no problem, thanks again, your're a true gentleman.

Sincerely,
Rick

 
Cobalt, the edges are not HC'ed, its bare O1.

While it is true that moisture retention will be increased by any surface imperfections, the greater area all by itself increases reaction rates.

Take the following senario : if you take a 1' by 1' piece of steel and put it an salt water and then a 2' by 2 ' piece and do the same, then you check back in one year which one will have produced the greatest volume of rust? The 2' by 2' simply because it has a greater surface area - ie. it presents more Fe ions to the O2 molecules.

In the same manner all the scratches and such on the blade increase the surface area presented to the reactant. While looking very small to us, they look huge to O2 atoms which see them as massive mountains and valleys. There is more surface area on an x-coarse edge than on an x-fine one.

From a math perspective the reaction rate is proportional to the number of reactant bits that can come in contact. When you increase the surface area you greatly increase the number of Fe ions presented to the O2.

Anybody reading this, don't take this as a serious explanation of reaction rates get a decent chemistry text. It is much more complicated that what I have stated in the above. Note the increase in moisture retention will have a greater effect on corrosion rates than the pure increase in surface area due to scratches and I have long since forgotton how to numerically calculate either.

-Cliff
 
In reference to the edge corrosion testing I mentioned in the above:

A few days ago I took a piece of the TUSK and scrubbed all the Marine Tuf-Cloth coating off of it. I then sharpened it up to 600 grit (DMT), it was then sharp enough to slice through paper easily and would bite well into fabrics. After drying it off I left it outside under the front steps on a concrete block. It was protected from the wind and thus had only moderate exposure to the elements.

After one day the edge had degraded significantly. It would not longer slice paper well but would instead catch and rip the paper. I could cut fabrics with it but it needed much more strokes. After two days it was completely blunted and could cut nothing. There were also significant rust spots along the edge. Note we were also having decent weather around here, no high winds off of the ocean, no rain, fog or mists etc. All of these would greatly accelerate corrosion.

While this may seem a bit severe, this type of edge loss can be easily prevented if you are willing to do a little maintance. I used the TUSK for about a week on soft materials and saw no edge loss due to corrosion or otherwise. However I would clean the blade at the end of each outing and apply a generous coating of Marine Tuff Cloth, including a wipe right down along the edge. I would also keep the blade sheathed when not in use and before sheathing wipe the edge across my pant leg to clean off any excess moisture and crud.

I would be interested though if the edge retention would be a problem in really humid climates or simply around salt water. Would the above be enough to protect the edge or would you need to actually reoil the edge periodically?

-Cliff
 
Cliff, since you live near the ocean, can you try this with the polished carbon steel blades of the khukuries and the uluchet. I'd like to know how these steels hold up in the same conditions. This is getting interesting. In fact this may not be a bad test to add to the overall testing. It will give an idea of corrosion resistance of different carbon steels.

 
I would strongly bet that D2 would hold up much longer than the spring steel in the khukuris. It would make an excellent addition to any testing and if I could find out a way to let the knives stay near the ocean out in the open without someone liberating them I would definately give it a shot. Maybe I should simply not oil them during the testing and see how that effects results.

-Cliff
 
This may be a little off the 'point', but what ever steel Mission Knives chooses to use and ti for their blades, I am sure they will stand behind their products. After conversing with Rick via email and John via phone, they got me convinced that they only want the best in their knives, like I do, and do extensive tests to make their knives TOP SHELF!

Can't wait to get my MPF1-Ti's knife order from Mission Knives!
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Mark



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" Knife Collectors Are Sharp People "
Click to expand...

 
<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/images/upload/maddog.jpg" target="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://www.bladeforums.com/images/upload/maddog_sm.jpg" align="right" border="0"></a>Here's a pic of a MD ATAK handle, tang and all. From what I can tell, the tang is chromed. However, there's no disputing the knife is "glued" in there.

Looks like the tang shape would make the knife an effective "ballistic" knife when the glue fails, because I dont see anything other than the glue holding it in the handle... and I'd definately be paranoid about corrosion if I was using this knife, given what we've learned about the "power" of hard chroming to resist rusting.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 27 September 1999).]
 
When the handle falls off of your Mad Dog knife, then you might have some useful information to report.

Comparison of the two knives is silly anyway. The only thing similar between the MPK and the ATAK is the shape. Sure, the edge of a Mad Dog knife will rust in an ocean environment if you don't take care of it. It is made out of tool steel like a lot of great knives. But a Mad Dog knife will also take a good cutting edge and hold it well if you do take care of it.

Mission Ti knives are practically impossible to break or rust, but it's performance as a cutting tool is on a par with the cheapest stainless steels. In order for it to outperform a steel knife, you have to submerge it in the ocean constantly and never maintain it, or apply enough lateral force to break a steel knife. Does that fit your use profile for a knife?

Pick your tool to fit your application.

Harv

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 27 September 1999).]
 
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