Titanium Sword / Katana?

If I were you and had enough money to get a sword of titanium, I'd save it and get a sword in 3V. There are makers on this forum that make katana with 3V steel and titanium fittings (fuchi, kashira, tsuba, menuki).
 
As someone who has made many hundreds of blades in many steels and in 6-4 Ti, I wouldn't say the Ti is better for a blade edge. It can work ok though. I prefer S7, but it rusts.

It's tough and stainproof, lower density, and very cool, and that can be just right sometimes.
 
I would like to see more, Mecha my friend.

What this appears to be to me is that people aren't grasping the potential of titanium properly. It cannot be treated like iron or steel because it is NOT iron or steel. The same way you don't treat your wife like you treat your boss. They both need to be treated and processed differently.

That's what I got out of it anyway. It's actually really exciting - could be some really great opportunities for some unobtanium type alloys to come out and do what we want them to.

Am I on the right track here?
 
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Been doing a little more reading, about the Mission blades and Warren Thomas' work. From what I've seen, the stuff they consider premium for blades (Beta C-2) can only reach as high as low 50's RC, and at that hardness, has a strength of about 250,000 pounds per square inch, compared to 350,000 lbs/square inch for your average tool steel at 60 RC. More detail on the metallurgy would be very interesting to me.
 
Hello!

Beta alloy titanium does get to low 50s rc which is great for a sword. For example, Zombie Tools steel swords cut car hoods and bicycle frames in half at rc 53, which is comparable to what you get with beta ti.....but the titanium sword can be much more thin in cross-section than a steel one and yet still be more tough, which balances its light weight when cutting, because there is less material in cross-section to push through in the instant of the cut. Most power comes from technique and speed anyway, not from the weight of the sword. It seems smiths throughout history have been very clever to reduce the weight of their weapons while retaining functional dimensions.

There are many nuances to a good blade metal. I'm of the thought that a knife for slicing is better in high carbon, very hard steel alloy, but a sword is subjected to impacts that make a more subdued temper an advantageous quality, steel or ti. For example, the katana above has been flexed rudely and forcefully side to side countless of times (hundreds) with no fatigue, which would have snapped most steel swords long ago. The fine grain structure of hard carbon steel allows it to have a very sharp smooth edge, like a razor, which is why it is so sharp, not necessarily because it is more dense and heavy. Most titanium blade edges are ragged at a microscopic level, and cut when drawn like a micro-tooth saw. However, as with steel alloys, there are alloying elements for beta ti that refine the grain size and can improve the edge quality.
 
Thanks for the response. It's definitely a fascinating idea, and I'd love to learn more.

You say it's more tough: can you provide a little more data on what you mean by that, how you've tested that claim, and the metallurgy behind it? It's certainly interesting, and gives the impression you've taken it further than some of the other Beta-ti makers out there. So far I haven't seen much indicating that Beta-ti is tougher than the average tool steel at sword hardness. Are you perhaps thinking that it's tougher due to higher ductility or something?
 
The best way to test of sword is to use it, right? Why not just do a video of the sword being used to kill some stuff? Include at least a dozen edge to edge blows against another high quality sword, as you may have in actual combat.
 
jmb311 said:
The best way to test of sword is to use it, right? Why not just do a video of the sword being used to kill some stuff? Include at least a dozen edge to edge blows against another high quality sword, as you may have in actual combat.
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How about you cite some actual evidence of edge-on-edge blows having anything to do with actual sword combat. From what I've seen, there's pretty much no evidence of edge-on-edge blocks happening. What experience do you have with sword fighting?
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
How about you cite some actual evidence of edge-on-edge blows having anything to do with actual sword combat. From what I've seen, there's pretty much no evidence of edge-on-edge blocks happening. What experience do you have with sword fighting?
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I posted that from my fathers computer. Just to clarify the separate accounts.

To answer your questions, I have zero experience actually sword fighting. I'm not a viking, a ninja, nor a pirate. That statement right there should tell you I only know what I've seen in movies and on TV. Zorro did quite a bit a blade defence, right? Inigo Montoya and Wesley (the man in black) did some fancy blade play in The Princess Bride too. Very exciting scene, especially for a kid! Does any of that represent what happens in a actual sword fight? I have no idea. Most people just go the easy route and shoot at each other these days.
You obviously take this very seriously, and you're probably very good at it because of that trait. With the exception of my job, I do not take anything very seriously. I'm a bit immature. My first ever paying job was as a clown at a local mall. At the age of 33 now, married with three kids, I haven't changed much since then. Just gotten a little fatter...... and hairier.
I'm sticking with my original post though. I wanna see a full on Conan the Barbarian type clashing of blades battle!! Full battle gear, dudes riding in on the backs of lions, and scantily clad cave women begging them not to go....... :D
 
Some food for thought. Hollywood does what looks exciting, which does indeed mean clashing swords. But there are some problems with that. Back in the days of folks who used swords, it would seem a fair bet that swords were expensive. Edge on edge impacts are damaging to blades. I don't care what kind of metal you're using, that would damage them. More, it's actually more awkward to parry with the edge than with the flat. A closer examination of the movies in question will reveal that most parries, even in movies, are STILL done with the flat, not the edge. The use of the niuweidao is a notable exception in movies, with the blade used to block edge out, braced against the body. You'll often see swords break, even in movies, using this technique, which was in fact designed to break the opponent's sword, by blocking with the thickest part of the blade braced against the body, while the opponent's blade is unsupported and thus weaker. And it ALWAYS results in huge nicks in the edge, and (significantly) decreased lifespan of the weapon. It's something you do with a cheap and mass produced blade, but never with a custom sword. To my knowledge, the documentation doesn't support edge-on-edge blocking, and such use would entail abuse in virtually any maker's book. It's not a realistic test of a blade's durability or strength. Would it be fun to watch, especially in the format you mentioned? Sure. Is it a test of the blade's ability to survive combat? Not likely.
 
Swords used in actual battles were nicked and damaged and would get polished overe and over again hence. The term a tired sword

I have Katana in my collection that are hindreds of years old and they exhibit this malady

Yes it is always advantages to block on a flat or even spine but in reality swords meet edge to edge in the heat of battle and blades were damaged

Here is one blade that I had sira saya made for it that is not that tired but has fine edge do damage if you look closely

Disregard the Tsuba it was just a prop and of course dots not go with the sword

L1000114.jpg


L1000115.jpg


Here is another that has had all the furniture redone that is on the tired side but still very nice

Swords043.jpg
 
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen (and I've damaged or broken my fair share of training swords in this fashion). I DO believe, however, that it qualifies as abuse, and I don't believe that gratuitous edge-on-edge bashing is a worthy use of time for testing the quality of the blade, when there are many more interesting tests that can, and should, be done to give us a better idea of the worthiness of Beta-ti as a sword-steel. I still don't see it competing with a decent steel, but the possibility is certainly interesting. We'll see what information Mecha will be willing to share.
 
There is an interesting premise made in a previous post about speed and cross section making up for mass. For some targets and purpose that may be true.

I agree that worthiness of ti not be determined through destruction but rather performance. An equal dimension in steel will be heavier. It will have more mass. Same profile, thickness, and grind, the steel blade at more weight will be a better cutting performer overall but a little slower to start and stop.

I am impressed with the flex test but what does it do for me really? Not much. Sorry. Stage blades of the stuff? Make them thick to avoid injuring someone and no pointy points.

I kind of see the many year old catch 22 issue about mass and despite really liking my spadroons (at less than a pound and a half), the same dimensions in ti would make for an even less useful sword overall.

Cheers

GC
 
Horse clover

I often wonder the same

A great cutting sword is a balance of balance and weight and edge geometry

Would you up the mass of the Ti piece to equal the weight of the steel ?

Than to what end

I might be able to see a reason in a sword came and maybe even a rapier

But not in a Katana , Broadsword or Gladius etc.

I understand the quest for new metallurgic advances like L6 blades etc but why the desire to push Ti

I think......and this is just my humble opinion that it comes from a younger generation weaned on comic books and video games :)

For those that have used a proper differentially heat treated carbon steel blade that has fantastic weight and balance why would you want to make it lighter ?

I understand searching for the ultimate in materials, but I just don't think it will be in Ti for sword blades
 
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Perhaps I could see a super light blade being useful in a epee like sword cane. But for a real cutter, there is a certain amount of mass you need that I think is best suited to the density of steel. And I'm not talking really heavy here, of the swords I own almost all are under 3 pounds.
 
In the interest of following forum rules, I can neither confirm nor deny the following when concerning swords forged out of an undisclosed beta titanium alloy abused in limited experiments:

It stabs as well as steel, but slices a bit less well than steel, probably due to inertial mass. This makes a small difference.
It is significantly lighter than steel, which makes it much quicker and more accurate to use, and is much more lively in action. This makes a large difference.
It does not take quite the razor edge of good steel, but the edge is just as resilient to abuse, if not more so.
It is MUCH more resistant to bending fatigue and general damage than steel, is very flexible yet stiff, and is virtually unbreakable.
It retains the above qualities even when forged into a very thin in cross-section.

Either way, your sword can chop a hog in half. One is gonna get there with a little more mass, one is gonna get there a bit faster, but both of them are going to concentrate the torque of your body into a super thin edge that is much tougher and harder than flesh and bone.

Those I know who have used a titanium hammer will tell you that it drives in a nail just fine despite the light weight, though sometimes only a b.f.h. will do the job! :]
 
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