Titanium vs. Aluminum handles

U

Uncle Bill

Joined
Aug 24, 1999
Messages
434
Pros and cons, scratch resistance, durability, what in the heck is anodizing anyway, hard anodizing, need for Ti anodizing, etc, etc.

Someone with the goods, lay it on us.

------------------
I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
Hiya Uncle Bill!
I'm no expert, obviously, but I'd go for the titanium over aluminum (That's Titaniumium and aluminium for our British friends) any day.
The main reason, for me, is that Titanium (or Titaniumium for our... aaahhhhhhh forget it. I'll just abbreviate 'em instead)
Tit seems to be easier to hold onto.
Tit's also more scratch resistant than Al, in my experience. I've carried a Sebenza with tit handles for a few years, not babying it at all, and the tit hardly has a scratch.
Al, on the other hand, tends to have more scratches and gouges.
As for anodizing Al or Tit, sorry. That's beyong my field of knowledge.
That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

VG

------------------
Vampire Gerbil: similar to a domestic gerbil, except for the odd accent and little black cape.

 
VG - "tit"? LOL
biggrin.gif


Uncle Bill - I have found that ti handles scratch easier than aluminum. My Sebenza has seen considerable use and the bead blasted ti handle shows it - it's got scratches and in some places scuffs. The aluminum handled knives I have (e.g. Benchmade, MicroTech, CRKT) are all hard coat anodized, which helps boost scratch resistance. Like the Sebenza, my BM Leopard has also seen plenty of action. While the blade may be scratched in some places, the handle still looks like it did when new. This my two pennies' worth....

------------------
Dexter Ewing
Knife Reviews Moderator
AKTI Member # A000005


 
Anodizing titanium or aluminum is a process where electricity is used to alter the atomic configuration of a thin layer of atoms on the metal surface. With titanium, niobium, and other reactive metals this excitement of atoms results in a color change. Different voltagesgive different colors.
With aluminum, the anodized surface is the same color as the non-anodized one, so to make colors you need to actually use dye in the electrolytic mix.

------------------
My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels

 
I just remembered what anodizing is, but Chiro75 posted it just before I had a chance to.... VER BATIM!
smile.gif


------------------
Vampire Gerbil: similar to a domestic gerbil, except for the odd accent and little black cape.

 
After cleaning the cool aid my daughter made for me off the monitor from reading VG's Micra post I tried to hold it in this time. Fortunately it was water. Unfortunately I successfully held it in and now my nasal passages hurt
frown.gif


VG every time you post you should have a warning: put down your drinks, swallow whatever is in you mouth and prepare to read something funny
biggrin.gif


Now what was the question? "tit" ROFLMAOWMCOMN
biggrin.gif


------------------
"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb


 
Ti makes a great handle, but scratches up crazy. A good hard coat anodization on aluminum is very scratch resistant, one of the reasons I am looking forward to the BM 720.

I am dying to see a Ti Speedtech Synergy, but will have to settle for an aluminum one myself.

------------------
~James
San Francisco, CA

 
Wow! DW, that's the scariest batch of KoolAid I've heard about since Jim Jones! Glad you skipped the powder this time.
I bet your monitor misses the colors, though.
No offense, but I think that if I were to warn people to "swallow" whenever I post, I'd get into some BIG time trouble with the local moderators.
Now then, as for "ROFLMAOWMCOMN".
Does that mean "Rolling On The Floor, Laughing My Butt Off With Milk Coming Out of My ...... "
WHOA!!!
I GOT it!!!!!

PS - Be careful about the Navel Milking... you could go blind!
-)

------------------
Vampire Gerbil: similar to a domestic gerbil, except for the odd accent and little black cape.

 
My metallurgist friends all consider the titanium fad a joke ... they say it's good for high-temperature applications but for all other applications there are much better materials that come much cheaper ... other than temperature resistance the only advantage of titanium is it sells.

But who cares? I'm gonna buy me a titanium tv set ... a titanium-lined briefcase ... a titanium bedframe ... a titanium toothpick ... sneakers with titanium eyelets for the laces ...

Cougar can't write any more right now; he has to take his meds and go lie down until he's calmer.... Sorry. He'll probably be okay in a couple of hours ... he usually is.
-The Management
 
Well, re: ti as a "fad" -- to that degree, I suppose one can say that about hi-tech *knives* in general...

Chris Reeve Knives, one of the manufacturers responsible for popularizing ti handles, is widely respected for making decisions based on real-world R&D. They implement changes slowly -- just ask any Sebenza fan who has posted on their forum re: "when are you going to use CPM 440V?" or "talonite"? etc. So CRK can hardly be accused of being "faddish," even if the Sebenza has accrued a very big "cult" following.

My understanding is that CRK uses ti bc its "springy-ness" is ideal for the integral lock. Also, corrosion resistance, light weight, and toughness. Would aluminum make for an equally good integral lock? Probably a good Q to post to the CRK forum...


------------------
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understanding?" -Elvis Costello
 
The main advantages of titanium is its weight. In any industry where Titanium is used, it is used because it is lighter. With almost half the weight of steel, and almost the same strength, it is a very good metal for many applications. This is why it is used so much in the aerospace industry.

The only advantages of aluminum is its light weight and the fact that it is inexpensive. It is a little lighter than titanium, but not nearly as strong or hard as titanium or steel. An aluminum handled folder is fine, since aluminum is plenty strong for a handle, and saves weight.

As for an aluminum handled sebenza forget about it. The lock would wear out very quickly. And if you want a steel handled sebenza it would easily weigh twice as much. With no real advantage other than cost, compared to its titanium counterpart.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>
 
Aluminum is cheap because of subsidized electrical use for industry. It takes an enormous amount of energy to produce the aluminum that we are familiar with.

------------------
James
San Francisco, CA


 
Low-alloy high-tensile steels beat all other metals for strength-to-weight ratio. (The material with the best strength-to-weight ratio isn't a metal, though; it's balsa wood.... Food for thought.)

My friends also rant about faddish use of titanium in aircraft, though there are some high-temp applications in aircraft where it's useful. There's a tendency among some engineers who want to make something lighter to say, let's make this part in titanium (or aluminum alloy) and make it the same dimensions as the steel part we're using now ... it'll be lighter and it'll still be strong enough. Yes, it often will, and it's cheap and easy to just make exactly the same part in a different alloy, but that's not the way to optimize weight.... The idea of making an all-steel Sebenza is applying the same principle in reverse.

Personally, I think just because it looks pretty is a perfectly good reason to use titanium in a knife. Nobody ever claimed mammoth ivory has any advantage to justify its expense other than looks....

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Cougar,

There's more to a material's suitability for a particular application than its strength to weight ratio. Bolsa wood may have the best strength to weight ratio but imagine making a plane out of it. To have the same stregnth as aluminum the plane would have to be huge with thick walls, just to compensate for the loss in stregnth. Remember the Spruce Goose? Here's another example, titanium is used on gold club heads because the lighter golf club head, the farther the ball can be driven. By useing titanium, the golf club head can be lighter AND be made bigger to have a larger hitting surface.

As for titanium being just for looks, here's an example: The speed tech synergy. They have models with both aluminum and titanium handles. Since, (I believe) the lock has nothing to do with the handle, it really wouldn't matter. So in this case it may be just for looks or to "sell" the knife. But on a knife like a sebenza, titanium is the best material for the handle. Again, if aluminum was used, the lock bar would wear very quickly, and if steel was used the knife would be much heavier. If you don't mind a heavier sebenza, then by all means steel would be a better choice. But I don't think most of us would appreciate a 6 oz sebenza, with no advantage other than cost, and to a much lesser degree less lock wear.


------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

[This message has been edited by JoHnYKwSt (edited 27 September 1999).]
 
Um ... I don't think the point is getting across ... especially the concept of how to go about optimizing weight.... Oh, well.

One more try: if you really want to optimize weight, choose the material first, decide on dimensions second.

Neither shall ye use the same dimensions with a material of inferior strength to weight ratio and call that optimization, nor shall ye use a straw-man argument and accuse thy brethren or thy cistern of wanting to make a steel part with the same dimensions as thy titanium part.... Brethren and cistern, I ask of ye, do the citing of the trendy use of titanium to sell golf clubs or the accusation that I want to build airplanes out of balsa wood deserve any answer? If it be so, brethren and cistern, I am confident you can refute them thyselves....
smile.gif


This is not worth arguing about. If you like titanium that's fine with me. Even if you believe a better golf club couldn't be made of a suitable alloy steel than of titanium ... well, materials costs in such things as knives and golf clubs are usually a small part of the whole, and if performance isn't quite what it could be with a more rational and less trendy choice of materials, I doubt that will bother anyone much.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
"Neither shall ye use the same dimensions with a material of inferior strength to weight ratio and call that optimization, nor shall ye use a straw-man argument" - Brother Cougar Allen

Amen, Brother! Lead us unto the Promised Land! I've been thinking about this in relation to other handle materials. Some people have expressed that they don't trust the handle of Spyderco Military for example, due to lack of metal liners. But that G-10 is extremely tough stuff; it's not going to break easily. These new materials are strong enough to allow very thin handles, but most makers seem to stick with larger handles. This is probably partly because of comfort and grip, but I suspect that some consumers don't trust a thin handle to hold up no matter what it is made of. William Henry folders have started to get away from this with their thin carbon fiber handles. I think more makers should take advantage of new materials this way.
 
Cougar,

I'm not a titanium advocator by any means. If there really is a better more suitable material for a particular application then by all means I'm all for it. But the fact is, Titanium has 50% the weight of steel, and is very close in stregnth. How can you argue that? How can a material with such properties not have many industrial uses?

There's a tendency among some engineers who want to make something lighter to say, let's make this part in titanium (or aluminum alloy) and make it the same dimensions as the steel part we're using now ... it'll be lighter and it'll still be strong enough. Yes, it often will, and it's cheap and easy to just make exactly the same part in a different alloy, but that's not the way to optimize weight.
Click to expand...

This makes absolutely no sense. If a part needs to be lighter and is made in steel, why not switch to aluminum if aluminum is strong enough to handle what the part was designed to do. You say this is not the way to optimize weight, and that there are better ways to optimize weight. If you cannot make changes to the part - which is usually the case - What are some of these other ways of optimizing weight?

Nobody ever claimed mammoth ivory has any advantage to justify its expense other than looks.
Click to expand...

I've stated many times that the advantages of titanium go farther than just looks.

If you really want to optimize weight, choose the material first, decide on dimensions second.
Click to expand...

I'm having trouble comprehending this one. Are you saying that everyone in this world who is going to make something should decide on the material before designing the part? Decide on a material, then design a part around that? Does anyone else besides me see a problem with this?

You claim that high-alloy high-tensile steels beat all other metals for strength to weight ratio. I don't see how this can be true if titanium is 50% lighter and just as strong. But I can be wrong. Please inform me on how this can be true.

On a titanium handled integral folder why is titanium used? Why not use G-10, aluminum, or steel. This is why:

  • Titanium is light. On most tactical folders today the handle material is G-10 or Zytel. This is because these materials are light. And are plenty strong.
  • Titanium is hard enough to withstand lock wear. The only other possible material is steel, which would contradict reason number 1, its weight.
  • Titanium has excellent memory. This helps with the lock bar's springiness.

    Liner locks have used both titanium and steel. I believe steel to be the better material because it is harder and as a result will wear more slowly. On an integral lock, lock wear is not as important because the lock bar face is so large. A larger contact surface between the lock bar and the bottom of the blade tang will increase lock life. On a liner lock this is not so. The liner face is much smaller and so will wear faster. But a titanium liner does have it's advantages over a steel liner, the titanium tends to gall against the steel thus a more secure lockup, and titanium has better springiness.

    On an integral lock folder, what are you going to do? Titanium is the only choice. And because of this titanium is not a fad, and isn't just used to sell a knife. This was your orignial point, was it not? Point out my faulty thinking here, other wise you're the one pulling the strawman.

    ------------------
    Johnny
    []xxxxxx[]=============>
 
I think I've located the confusion here:

"You claim that high-alloy high-tensile steels beat all other metals for strength to weight ratio. I don't see how this can be true if titanium is 50% lighter and just as strong."

Titanium is about as strong as mild steel. Low-alloy high-tensile steels are much stronger, as much as three times as strong as mild steel per square inch, at about the same weight.

There seems to be a pretty basic confusion about how to go about engineering for optimum weight, too -- maybe a misunderstanding of the word "optimum"? Optimizing weight means making weight as low as possible without impairing function. In order to do that you must choose the best materials for the job and then choose dimensions based on the characteristics of those materials and the stresses and strains involved in the application -- that is the only way to optimize; any other approach to engineering will not produce the optimum weight.

It often happens that an engineer saddled with a legacy design that was not originally designed for optimum weight can improve the turkey a little by taking out an overdesigned steel part and replacing it with an alloy part of the same dimensions, which will often have adequate strength simply because weight was not considered in the original design and the steel part was made much heavier than it needed to be. That's not optimizing; that's making an overweight turkey a little less overweight.

"If you cannot make changes to the part - which is usually the case - What are some of these other ways of optimizing weight?"

Just to hammer it into the ground (spare the rod and spoil the dead horse
smile.gif
) -- if you're not allowed to make changes to any of the parts other than changing the alloys, you cannot hope to optimize weight; the best you can hope to do is make the turkey less overweight than it was.

-Cougar Allen :{)


[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 28 September 1999).]
 
Cougar,

OK two points:

It often happens that an engineer saddled with a legacy design that was not originally designed for optimum weight can improve the turkey a little by taking out an overdesigned steel part and replacing it with an alloy part of the same dimensions, which will often have adequate strength simply because weight was not considered in the original design and the steel part was made much heavier than it needed to be. That's not optimizing; that's making an overweight turkey a little less overweight.
Click to expand...

What do you do in the event the part WHOSE WEIGHT HAS BEEN OPTIMIZED, what can you do then? Is not the only choice to go to a lighter material?

Answer this question for me. On an integral lock folder what is the better material? Is it low alloy high tensile steel? What is it? I'd like to know. If you cannot answer this question then titanium is the best material for this purpose and so, it is not a fad. I won't write any more so you won't be able to stray off track, as you've done many times earlier.

In all our posts you still have not shown how Titanium is a fad.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>
 
Titanium is about as strong as mild steel. Low-alloy high-tensile steels are much stronger, as much as three times as strong as mild steel per square inch, at about the same weight.
Click to expand...

Please prove this to me. I'm not saying this is wrong, I just have a hard time believing it. If this was true, a steel sebenza would weigh the same as it does now.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top