To kill or not to kill?

[Math Schlosser]

As most off the readers know, there are people with good and people with bad intentions.

As being one of the first category, I want to discuss the following.

Whenever I carry a knife larger then my Puma Custom, a 9 cm blade folding knife, I always tend to feel a little criminal.
When you carry a knife there is always the possibility to get into an akward situation.
Although I am a peacemaker, I am aware that a knife is a deadbringer if used so.
Well what I want to say,
Even when a knife could save your life, (by hurting someone else) using it that way leads only to hell.

Feeling like a war ant who fights to end all wars.

I think it is better not to carry a knife in urban surroundings if the situation can get akward. No knife needs more talk to end a crisis and this is the only way to peace. I rather give my purse than slicing someone up and end my life in jail or hospital.

People, who walks around with this kind off morale questions, I like to carry a knife but I'm afraid to hurt someone, we are only once her on this planet and every life is precious even a criminal one.
If someone wants my purse, I think I would try to persuate him, let's forget it, let's smoke a joint.
I must admit, I'm a peaceful dutchmen and here around is not (fortunately) US.

Your knife;
your friend or your enemy,
just like your wife.
Make em as sharp as you like
but use them wise.

Bush-life-threathening-situations-non-included.

 

[Chang]

I just use my knife as a tool.

I'm also a peaceful Dutchmen because I'm part Dutch even though most of me is Taiwanese.

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Chang and the Rebels of the East!
Southern Taiwan Will Rise Again!

 

[Crayola]

This question is dealt in many circles, two of the more vigorous being the religious anf philosophical ones. Being a member of the latter, I shall tell you what I have come up with.

Often it is the case that if you ignore the enemy, or use peaceful resistance such as was in the case of India and Ghandi, the enemy will go away. The British left India and even the mighty Roman Empire embraced Jesus! This works in the cases where your enemy doesn't really want you dead. The Brits didn't want the Indians dead, they wanted them alive to buy salt (which they used to go down to the river and get for free!) Also, many a robber doesn't want you dead, but threatens the use of force for many reasons, perhaps the ebst being to bolster THEIR OWN confidence as without the knife or gun they perhaps wouldn't have the "courage" to rob you and I. But then there are (at least) two other groups of people that do not fit in at all. One are Hitler's Nazis. They WANTED the Jews dead. If the Jews had tried peaceful resistance ir something of the Ghandi persuasion (to defy the Brits Ghandi lead his people down to gather salt for free, and each received a whack on the head with a stick/rifle. After a while the Soldiers' arms got tired and they lost their will to smack the unarmed people in the head and, having lost the support of the Brits back home, they left India.)...where was I... Oh, If the Jews decided, "hey, all we have to do is walk into places like Auswitz (sorry for the spelling) and sooner or later the Nazis will give up their fight," then the Jews of Europe would have been wiped out!! The key difference is that the Nazis WANTED the Jews dead, where the brits didn't want the Indians dead.

The other group of people are those who are irrational. There are many cases in the U.S. and likely elsewhere where someone goes into a store, demands money, gets it and then they SHOOT the clerk who was following the robber's orders. There are also people who have had one too many joints or other substances and they do not know what they are doing. A year ago in my city the police shot a mentally ill person who was carrying a machete around in an appartment building. He is an example of a person acting irrationally.

Here is where you must decide. Chances are that if threatened, it may not be life or death. But you shouldn't try to convince yourself that your assailant doesn't want to kill you, or is acting rational. You put your life on the line, and perhaps the lives of others, each time you enter one of these situations. You ahve to decide whether it is o.k. to use deadly force or not. But it is a mistake on your part to assume, as you did, that you can just play buddy buddy with your enemy. I don't say this sarcastically, and when I say "play buddy buddy" I don't mean it in a disrespectful way. What I mean to say is that don't base your resolve to fight or not basen on hoping that your enemy does not want to kill you, because that is not the whole case. And don't forget that you may be putting others at risk by your decision. Suppose you came upon someone raping another individial. If you had a knife, would you act differently than if you didn't? How do you think thge results would differ if you had a knife versus if you didn't? And so on.

And if I may dip into the religious circle for but a moment, why do you say that killing someone is a guaranteed road to hell? Even the Christian commandment of, "Thou shalt not kill" actually menas something like there are times when it is o.k. and times when it is not: do not confuse the two!!!" The Old Testament is full of wars and killing sanctioned by God.

Well, that is all. I have no fingers left to type with

Sometimes, being a philosophy student gets you into way too much trouble

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"Come What May..."

 

[dogboye]

Originally posted by Math Schlosser:
...I'm afraid to hurt someone, we are only once her on this planet and every life is precious even a criminal one....

While every life may be precious, I would have to say that a criminal who is trying to take my life has a life of much less worth to me than my life. And I will do everything in my power to end his attempts, as quickly and efficiently as possible. That is easier with a blade than my fingernails and teeth, and even easier with a firearm. Whatever I have will be used by me.

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iktomi

 

[James Healy]

I would hesitate to kill in a purely self defense situation, because i feel generally capable of defending myself without killing. If i felt that i was likely not to survive this encounter, and that by killing the person causing it, i could make myself more likely to survive, i may still hesitate. However, the situation crayola describes, of finding someone being raped, or hurt in some other way, is not acceptable to me. I would stop the perp in a most violent manner, and would not be upset if it killed him. I may or may not actually make the decision to kill him, depending on the situation. If i could totally remove him as a threat without deadly force, i would. However, to protect an innocent, i would go a long way.

James

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The beast we are, lest the beast we become.

 

[evasion]

I agree with crayola, rockspyder, and james.
Their points make sense to me. I carry a knife for utility reasons, but if I need it in self defence it is always there. If a robber demanded my wallet I would give it to him, just because I have a knife doesn't mean that I HAVE to use it. It depends on the situation.

Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6.

Those sayings really stick in my mind everytime someone brings up a topic like this.

 

[sevenedges]

Smoking something alright.

 

[Samurai6]

I carry a knife only to enhance life, my own, and all others around me. A knife is just a tool. Malice exists only in the hearts of those who would willingly harm others.

 

[Vampire Gerbil]

If I'm in a situation where I feel the need to use a knife (or any other tool, including a firearm) to defend myself, it's a fact that someone is intent on causing me, or a family member, great bodily harm.

In that situation, the other person shall be dealt with swiftly, harshly and severely Their best hope is that they wake up in a trauma center.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't fish or hunt, and I go out of my way to avoid killing ANY creatures, including poisonous ones that find their way into my house.

I'm quite capable of sleeping soundly with my decision.

As for feeling like a criminal if you carry a large knife, no offense, but that's absurd.
Do you feel like a criminal when you drive a car that's capable of travelling faster than the maximum speed limit as well? That logic seems to indicate a lack of self control... but I'm no expert.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

"and here around is not (fortunately) US."

Sorry you feel that way.

I was born and raised in New York City, and lived there on and off for over forty years. During that time, it wasn't even a joke, about how dangerous New York had become. And I worked nights a lot, and all around Manhattan Island.

I never got into a situation where I needed a weapon to defend myself, although there were a couple of occasions where I did encourage other people to go someplace else. Peacefully.

I ALWAYS carry a knife, even if it's only a symbolic little keychain knife. I feel better with my Leatherman around. I like to be able to fix things.

Why do you feel that carrying a knife will tempt you to hurt someone? Maybe if you knew more about knives, you would respect them more as cutting tools, not combat toys. You can control yourself; the knives won't make a killer out of you.

 

[Vampire Gerbil]

Esav, perhaps he's just worried that his victims won't get the finest medical care as he would at Chilton!

 

[Stiletto Raggio]

Call it stupidity, call it chivalry, call it wahtever you like. If I am in danger, or see someone else in danger, and have the means to eliminate or lessen the threat, I feel it is my duty to do so.

Life is precious, but people who do not respect life are not worth keeping around. If someone breaks into my house, I am reaching for the Benelli and the HK. I don't call the cops, I call the paramedics, because if you dont' belong here, you are leaving on a stretcher.

Some peopl, called pacifists, believe that violence never solved any problems. I say that it has, it does, and it will. There are usually better ways to bring about an end, but when push comes to shove, violence must always remain an open option in your mind.Do you think the Jews could have conviced Hitler that the "Final Solution" was a bad idea?

In the words of the talented, if misunderstood, Dr. Dre, "It's either my life or your life, and I ain't leavin'."

 

[allenC]

While I don't want to hurt anyone, I will stand up and defend what's mine.
I learned long ago that a man must stand up for himself because nobody else will.
If you let someone take your wallet you are encouraging them to continue this type of behavior. And this time it's your wallet, next time maybe your car, or the things out of your house, where do you draw the line?
I worked very long and hard for what I have and I'm not giving it up without a fight (unless the situation is hopeless).

 

[nonbox]

If your life is on the line, you will do what is natural to survive. I carry a backup weapon everywhere because that knife could be knocked out of your hand. You better read your history books. Most loving peaceful societies get invaded and conquered by aggressive societies.

 

[TomW]

For less than the cost of a good weapon the average person can insure everything they own.
They're only things. Killing over things is foolish. If I had to defend my life or the life of my family i would have little choice but to do whatever needs doing but can only hope to have the wisdom to know when it is the time for such an extreme action.

 

[Bart student]

Hello folks,

I think the original post was from Math Schlosser, a dutchman. In Holland, the carry off every knife is forbidden. They won't arrest you or something, it all depends on the situation. But if a tug carrying a knife gets in trouble, he's had it. Big fine, even some jail-time. Most likely, in a dutch city, you'll be surrounded or cornered by a few wannabe criminals. Now, most of them have a knife, but since they outnumber you, they won't need it. Give the wallet or not? If you have lots of cash in it I would struggle too, but their's nothing in there that's not replaceable ! O.K. you might loose like 500 FL, but so what? you got a personal insurance, they'll pay you back.
If you would be carrying a knife...let's say an endura '98. The moment you pull that, your chances on 'just' a finacial trauma become a lot smalller. Only if you are capable off intimidating the 'leader' of the gang, you can walk away freely.
In a real knife fight, man to man, the chances of a fatality are not that big. most slices end up in skin, fat or muscles. only a direct slash at the throat kills. Stabbing is more dangerous, and tactically not so effecient either. In training, I alway try to slice as hard as I can at the arm in which the knife is helt. I know that one good slice at an arm will disable it.
In holland, it is illegal to kill someone, even in pure selfdefense situation. If a criminal in the streets decides to kill you and rob you then (much easier - only for advanced criminals), and you end up in a knife-fight with him, whoever gets killed, if it's you, he will walk away and most lightly the police will never find him. If it's the criminal, his family will sue you, and you'll go to jail. This is no bull****, this is real. I only know two countries where a victim can get sued by his attacker, and that's Holland and my beloved .... Belgium.
My neigbour across the street - nasty farmer, but a good guy - shot the left leg of a burglar with an old double barrel 10-gage shotgun. He's now paying about 20000 BEF or 1000 fl or $500 USD a month to pay for the dudes invalidity. Why? He was quicker then the burglar, he hadn't stolen anything (yet).
What penalty did the burglar get? You guess.
None. Good guess.
Now, knives in the streets.... not a good idea. I feel a little criminal too when I carry my endura or AFCK. But I found a way the get around that. I have a license to carry and manufacter (I am a knifemaker) edged weapons of all kind. Valid only in Belgium, and I had a lot of trouble getting the license.
Basics: 1. you don't need knives in battle situations nowdays. Guns or barehanded.
2. If you do carry them (holland) and use them (USA) you will get in trouble with the authorities.

greetz, Bart.

Mail me freely. I prefer E-mail. Directer.

 

[medusaoblongata]

Math,

You say, "When you carry a knife there is always the possibility to get into an akward situation," as I see it, when I carry a knife there is the possibility to get out of an awkward situation.

You say, "I rather give my purse than slicing someone up and end my life in jail or hospital," you know, it is possible to carry a knife and not always use it, you could give someone your purse just as easily if you have a knife, you might need it to cut a bagel or something later that day.

You say, "If someone wants my purse, I think I would try to persuate him, let's forget it," sometimes that's possible, other times it's not, and that is a reality you may have to deal with someday. But what if they don't want your purse, what if they want your child, and you can't talk them out of it? Use a little sense, always carry a weapon, only use it when you absolutely have to, it may be the only way to save a precious life.

"Every life is precious" - debatable, but I'll give you that, however, some lives are more precious than others - and this shouldn't be forgotten.

Whenever possible, by all means, make peace. But there are times when that is just simply not possible. It takes two people to agree on peace, but just one to decide on violence. If your enemy is determined to fight you, you can fight back or die meekly, the choice is yours.

When peace is an option it should always be chosen, when peace is not an option (and unfortunately this does happen occassionally), you still have a choice: them or you.

To quote (or misquote) the infamous Jack Handey, "I can imagine a world without war and without hatred, I can also imagine attacking that world because they would never expect it," they would lose.

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra

 

[tallpaul]

And people wonder why we don't want the New world Order? Its bad enough that the rest of the world wants others to protect them and make all their decisions but that mentality has been eroding this country for years. I have driven cars/trucks for years,had guns/knives/chinsaws(?) ect. all can be used to do harm and I never have had to follow thru with their use in defense though all have been used to avert potential problems with not only man but animal. I just wish I had a dollar for evertime in my life someone whose views were as theirs were happy when I had the means to change a situation. whether by a work need or protection.

 

[nick1106]

I spend a lot of time carrying knives in urban situations. Last week, for example, me and Agent 13 spent four days straight in a sidewalk post office box. 13 weighs in at about 240, and I tip the scales at just over 97 pounds so you can imagine how crowded it got in there. As for knives, I was packing my Camillus Talon (for corrosion resistance), Rekat SIFU (for intimidation factor), Sebenza Umfaan (for picking my toenails), Microtech Vector (cuz it just looks bad) and a Cold Steel Desperado (for opening other people's mail). The Desperado came in really handy as we would look for birthday letters and steal the quarters grandmas sent to their little grandchildren, and open all the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes entries.

Gotta go, it's almost time for the 4 oclock pick up.

Your favorite Singaporian Slinger,
Nick

 

[fudo]

I sure in he** am glad I don't live where some of you live.
The taking of a life does no one honor, however, when someone decides to act as a wolf to other men they voluntarily give up their membership card in the human family. Criminal violence should be resisted whenever practical. Defense of self or others against deadly violence is necessary, but I wouldn't take a life over a wallet. That wuold be kind of like using an A-bomb to kill mice, don't you think?

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The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict