To kill or not to kill?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nick 1106, you forgot the Emerson La Griffe (for "throat cutting" I think was the wording in the "best offensive weapon" thread in the review forum).
smile.gif
So how is the black side of the Singapore government doing?

------------------
Chang and the Rebels of the East!
Southern Taiwan Will Rise Again!
cst.jpg
 
I justed wanted to chime and let you know that killing in self defense is not[b/] illegal in Holland AFAIK. We are obligated by law to 'run away' if possible once one is threatened with death or severe injury, if that is not possible we are allowed to defend ourselves or others. Violently re-educating a bad guy because he took things or 'just' enters my house is (sadly) illegal for us. Furthermore, when applying violence in self defense we have to apply it 'equally', i.e. don't shoot 'em in the head when he punches you in the face. This ofcourse led to some horrible incidents where victims ended up in jail because they hurt a burglar! Let me tell you that the average Dutchman (or woman) does not like that at all!

More importantly, our culture differs significantly from that of the US. For example, our country has an elaborate system of 'welfare' and social security. This then may reflect in our law system, where criminals are often be seen as 'victims' first and criminals later. Which is bad news for law abiding citizins who defend themselves and are severely scrutinized for their actions.

Knives with a single edge and folding locking blades up to 4 inches are legal to carry over here, but the individual police officer can judge that a weapon, as he could do in the case of a brick or umbrella, and confiscate it. I have enjoyed collecting, carrying, using and training with my knives for some time and hope to do so in the future. I believe I have always acted responsibly with my tools, and am not worrying at all that some cop is going to walk up and tell me to hand over my knives, nor am I worried that I will be getting in "awkward" situations because of me carrying a knife.
 
There is nothing I own, absolutely nothing, that is worth my deliberate taking of a human life. I carry my blades as tools first. At 6'3" 210 lbs., my natural strength has served me just fine in defensive situations without even having to think I might have to use a knife. BUT...If my family is threatened, well...That's an entirely different situation. The same if my back's to the wall. If they want my wallet and my Rolex (and I mention the brand not to brag, but to make a point) it's their's. But if I sense that one or more want to go beyond that, I have no qualms gentlemen. I have no qualms.
 
Well,

What would happen if the laws concerning this matters where abolished?
What if we were free to cut someone's troat if we liked to. I know this sounds ridiculous but we all feel the law in our neck. We want to be more free but we have to be chained by the law, otherwise we would go back to the stone age, we're human don't forget it.
It's a fact that countries with many weapons among their civilisation, have a high crime rate, US being the best.
No matter what "we" decent knifepeople think about knives, their are more wo don't visit this website thinking otherwise.
Our children are the future and we should teach them right. This is were it all begins. When I was younger, carrying a knife was only for utility. Nowadays, people look different to knives. They became more close to crime. The chance of being seen as a criminal when you carry a knife becomes greater and greater.

I personally never had a problem carrying a knife but you can feel the changes when talking to other people.

I've been a nighttime taxidriver for several years and found some young people becoming more agressive. They are meaner, as if they are brainwashed by XTC and alcohol. You have to be much more careful nowadays what you say to a stranger. Humor is fading and people are so itchie and on the edge. Ad a knife to this situation and they feel even more powerful.

Quote:
You obviously cannot be trusted with guns so we are going to take them away from you! (Consolidated, Tool and Die 1992).

Quote:
It is not safe to hope for the best without preparing for the worst. (Frontline Assembly, Provision 1990).

It all depends, who knows where it all ends....
 
What if we were free to cut someone's troat if we liked to.
Click to expand...

Where the hell do you get the idea that anyone here wants to cut people's throats just because they feel like it???

The subject is SELF DEFENSE, not MURDER!!

Tell ya what, pal, just sit back and smoke your joints in a pretty field of flowers or something and hope that you never find yourself in a situation where you or a loved one is in danger.

You just insulted everyone in this forum by your idiotic remark!

mad.gif


Our children are our future, blah, blah, blah...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and your POINT???

I happen to teach my kids to respect people and treat them with dignity, but if they're ever in fear for their lives, to FIGHT BACK WITH ALL MEANS AVAILABLE!

By the way, I should point out that you annoy me.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Vampire Gerbil
 
Hello Vampire,

You know, this idea came out of hell.

You are an example off the itchie ones. Feel insulted?
Why is the object only selfdefence, you only get into a selfdefence situation if someone else has "murder"intentions, you brought the word in. It seems you being the one lying in the flowerfield.
What would really happen without laws.
The point is that you would become afraid as hell if laws were abolished. You know it.
Crime would rise like that same hell. It's nice to talk about knives as tools or for self-defence. Look back into history and you might understand what I mean.

I respect your attitude, no offence.
Math
 
Holland, like England and most of europe today is lockstep with the NWO system . A farmer in England Gets life in prison for shooting a burglar. A Member of Parliament is investigated by the police because HE Told a relative to defend his home with his shotgun if invaded. This wonder ful world government that is in place today in europe doesnt have any room for self defense by individuals AT ALL. The state Rules supreme. Holland sounds little different from england. How far ONCe great nations fall. These types(NWO collectivists) are pushing for the same baloney in OUR nation. The right of self defense is GOD given. States or regimes Cannot stop their citizens from legitimate defense of home or self. Sadly,like I stated already, we are getting these NWO collectivist types in OUR Nation and in Our government. Jesus Christ,knowing the hard times, even told HIS DISCIPLES to buy swords. This post touched some nerves among people feed up with governments telling the people that unnatural laws of pacifism are to be enforced by the State. You can bet the farm that the STATE wont follow any pacifistic laws!
 
So Math,

Are laws all that keep you from becoming a mindless, murdering savage?

That's a Marxist way of looking at society. We do things a little different around here. It's called democracy.
 
Why is this so much of a problem? The basic facts are in question.

Math, you assume the US is crime-ridden, and you assume this is because of the abundance of weapons here.

Wrong on both counts. The roots of crime are varied, and demographics are much more significant than weapons available. Recent trends toward encouraging concealed carrying of firearms in US states have led to decreased violent crime.

Criminalize the behavior, not the equipment. Of course we need laws, especially in societies that have rapid population growth, social and geographic mobility, heavy immigration, technological change, and economic dislocation.

Sound familiar? The US has been doing this for years, and we're getting good at it. Europe is just now feeling the impact of continental unification combined with immigration from outlying regions. The EU made fools of themselves by ostracizing Austria for considering policies that other members are already implementing, just more quietly.

Some years ago, we laughed that Orwell was overly pessimistic in his predictions in "1984". Your kind of reliance on external controls instead of personal morality and self-reliance makes that laughter very hollow.

Vodka in Soviet Russia, narcotics in the Netherlands? The plastered proletariat, whole nations of subjects, no citizens. No, thanks.
 
VG, maybe if he gets hurt over there, we can bring him here to Chilton. This is the heart of the old Dutch territory in the US, after all.
 
Math, another bit of philosophy. Laws are kind of like the dictionary: They largely report, not dictate. Imagine that laws were abolished. Read hobbes and you will see what he feels will happen. Sure chaos may erupt, but then some people would realize that they have a better chance of living if they band together, and do so. Notice that if one tries to sluff off on their duties in the newly formed group, they probably will be punished (killed) or kicked out of the group, which is practically liek being killed. It is in this manner that many practices come about, which later are written down as "laws". If A kills B's POWs, then B will kill A's POWs. Since A doesn't want their POWs beink killed, it suddenly becomes a rule of war (aka law) that you do not kill POWs, or you will be charged with war crimes. Furthermore, Milosevich has broken many laws, but you don't see him losing sleep. As long has he stays in Serbia, he is probably o.k. Laws describe society, they do not enforce rules.

Also, remember that you enjoy your freedom now because a bunch of people (a bunch of Canadians amog them) went to your home and chased the Nazis out, using deadly force. You benefit, like it or not, from this. Also, answer this question: Suppose someine is raping someone very close to you and intends to kil them afterwards, and you know it. Furthermore, the only way to stop them is to pull out your pocket knife and "do the deed". What would you do?

------------------
"Come What May..."
 
Okay, this idea came out of hell... yep, uh huh.
Thanks for blurring that all up for us.

As for the "murder" subject, YOU brought it up when you have the brilliance to say, "What if we were free to cut someone's troat if we liked to."

Sounds like murder to me.

As for me being "itchie"...
Maybe I am....
But if someone threatens me with a weapon of any kind, I will therefore be in fear for my life.
Let's see.... should I say, "Hey there fellow! Why not follow me and my girlfriend to a secluded alley, smoke a joint, and be friends forever after?"
Or should I just shoot the fella dead?

I dunno... decisions.... decisions.....

I'm not someone that runs around just HOPING I get a chance to kill someone. Far from it. In fact, the majority of American citizens would absolutely abhor the idea of killing someone for whatever reason.
That don't mean we won't do it if our backs are against the wall.

Glad you respect my attitude.
VG
 
So, one should not be allowed to defend one's life or the life of a loved one with the evil straight from Hell knife concept eh?
Do you propose that we bow to the criminal and beg for mercy while he butchers us and/or our loved ones?
Are you for real?
If your not comfy carrying a "Weapon", then don't.
I don't think most of the folk on BladeForums consider their knives as weapons first. Tools yeah. Weapon, only in the gravest extreme.
Jeez. I hope you never are put into the position of having to defend yourself or a loved one. What a sad sight that would be.


------------------
The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
Sun Tzu
 
Its pointless to compare a culture that allows possesion of weapons and one that doesnt allow the possesion of weapons. These cultures have evolved differantly and the mind set of the people is differant.

The US was founded with the use of force and manifest destiny was the excuse. Even if the Govt banned all waepons here I doubt that you would see much of a drop in the crime rate as the criminals wouldnt bother to stop and turn in thier now illegal waepons THEY ARE CRIMINALS!! If anything there would be an increase in crime as now the criminals could pilfer the law abiding citizen at will with no worry of retribution from the victim.

This theory has proved self evident in States where Conceled Carry Laws have been enacted allowing law abiding citizens to carry. Criminals have even confirmed this themselves with statements like " I have targeted tourists from other countrys now because the locals might be packing a gun" Crime statistcs show that violent crimes go down in states where citizens have the ability to defend themselves legally.

The use of a waepon to defend myself or my family is a no brainer for me and I would have no regrets if the assaliant ended up in the trauma center or the morgue. I utilize my CCL but that doesnt mean Im going to feel like a criminal because I have a gun or a knife. I have self restraint and the ability to intelligently asess a given situation and take appropriate action.

As for trying to reason with an assailiant in most cases you are going to end up the loser HES A CRIMINAL and if he had any sort of morality about him he wouldnt be assaulting, robbing, raping ect.

Each person has to make his own choices my choice is to defend myself. Oh and in most law enforcement self defense courses you are taught to defend yourself in close quarters to disarm the assaliant if he has a gun but you are taught 3 rules when the assaliant has a knife and you are unarmed RUN, RUN, RUN!!!!!

Well Im done ranting smack me if Ive said too much.



[This message has been edited by BeowulftheGeat (edited 07-27-2000).]
 
Math,

Give the majority of people a little credit. Perhaps you have some morality issues, and, in the absence of laws, might commit crimes. Perhaps you merely speculate. Most of us do not require words written on paper (laws) and the fear of punishment to maintain an honest life. If laws actually prevented crime, we would have none.
Your statement about abolishing laws is ridiculous. Laws (are supposed to) establish an effective means of punishment and remove dangerous elements from society. Instead, the laws should work in conjunction with our natural right to self-defense.
Incidentally, I do not think our PER CAPITA crime rates are are comparatively (to similarly industrialized nations) extrordinary. I will research the subject and try to post some statistic later. I suspect our media's bias against weapons and defense has something to do with this stereotype.


------------------
But when the law, by means of its necessary agent, force, imposes upon men a regulation of labor, a method or a subject of education, a religious faith or creed---then the law is no longer negative; it acts positively upon the people. It substitutes the will of the legislator for their own wills; the initiative of the legislator for their own initiatives. When this happens, the people no longer need to discuss, to compare, to plan ahead; the law does all this for them. Intelligence becomes a useless prop for the people; they cease to be men; they lose their personality, their liberty, their property. -Frederick Bastiat
 
Since this forum is specifically about knives, as opposed to a forum concerned with the keeping and bearing of arms in general, or the circumstances that do or do not justify violence, I'll start out talking about knives.

A knife can be a deadly weapon. We all know this. A knife is also a universal tool, and one that I use every day on inanimate objects - edible and otherwise - and I would still carry a knife - a fast and convenient and very sharp knife - in a world that was perfectly peaceful where I never had to worry about confronting a bad guy. So when I carry a knife I am not necessarily "bearing arms."

But I cannot forget that a knife can be a dangerous weapon, and that many people see one as primarily a weapon. I lead a low-risk lifestyle among mostly low-risk sorts of people, so the odds of me needing a knife in a criminal sort of emergency are less than the odds of my needing my seatbelt in an automotive emergency. But if I believed that I or somebody it was my duty to defend was in immediate danger of great bodily injury or death at the hands of an aggressor, and some lesser degree of force would not, in my snap judgement, save the situation, I would pull out my knife and slash and pray.

And if (and I have not seen such a statute and rumors of such statutes may be exagerated) there is some jurisdiction a law that says one must die rather than resist deadly force with deadly force, that law is not a law.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I don't really think the heart of the matter is about laws and weapons and morals, I think it comes down to protecting what is yours. I don't think some folks realize that if you give in and reward the thugs and parasites then YOU are part of the problem. Parasites and thieves rob people because they want "easy money", they are not "psychopaths who are'nt afraid to die" (they just want you to think they are).
 
Hello Folks,

I've heard some cool stuff in this thread.
steve: you said :"Are laws all that keep you from becoming a mindless, murdering savage? That's a Marxist way of looking at society. We do things a little different around here.
It's called democracy."
some remarks: 1. if you live in a democracy, so do the chinese. You live in a pseudo-democracy, rule by a bureaucratic institute, the goverment. 2. K.Marx had a good view off society, only F.Engels and Lenin wrecked it up. Marx set three stages, Lenin only took it to the second. Marx said: All power to the people, something you people eagerly forget because they are "communists".

Where does a law come from? anyone ever wondered? In real life, there are three stages. Human are group animals. From the moment one of them got a consience, society was born. this Moral led to institutes, who enforced laws. One of this institute is a culture. So, laws in the boarder sense of the word ARE all that keeps us from becoming animals. Laws, as seen just on paper, without culture, are meaningless because they are bonded with a culture.

Beowulfthegreat: "Its pointless to compare a culture that allows possesion of weapons and one that doesnt allow the possesion of weapons. These cultures have evolved differantly and the mind set of the people is differant. "
Aside from the spelling, absolutely right.

James: "And if (and I have not seen such a statute and rumors of such statutes may be exagerated) there is some jurisdiction a law that says one must die rather than resist deadly force with deadly force, that law is not a law."
Well, laws should be balanced to complete the morality of the culture as a whole. Here, and in Holland, they are not balanced. We become more agressive (at least are native criminals) and the laws do not adapt. That leads to situations were people, simply carrying a knife and a morality feel like criminals. Like Math does, I guess. Penalties over here are also not in accordance with crimes. Maximum penalty in Belgium is 10 years in prison, with an individual room and minimal sizes off 5 m x 3 m. No matter what you have done. Do you people remember Dutroux? He's a free man now, in police protection. Some officers made misstakes when arresting him. Procedure-errors.
I would kill the dude on sight with my bare hands. Even if I need to go to prison. This country's law system suck, and so does the one in Holland. The system is build on the belief that criminals are drifted from society and all will be O.K. after he regrets his sins. BULL****. We, here in Europe evolve to American justice system (while the old one remains in duty) and you Americans evolve to ours, while the old one also remains in duty.
We educate criminals and evolve to punishing , you punish criminals and evolve to educate them.

my opinion: I think I would kill someone trying to molest me. Thats goes for raping loved ones too. I already learned that in this country you better kill someone then permanently damage him. Criminals here are not people who want easy money. Thats are the teenager-gangs here. Criminals here are real criminals, ready to kill you for it. I always carry an Endura, and I got picked up once. The officer who talked to me, and tried to explain that I was carrying an illegal arm, was silent when I pointed out that he had a Benchmade AFCK in his pocket. I noticed the clip. I walked on, and he said that he had to say that to me, by the book. I know a time when the cops here carried two guns, one real and one fake. If they spotted a certain person, he would be (and was a month back) shot on sight and the fake gun would be placed on him to justify the kill. This all demonstrates that the law over here is not absolute, and the basic law is the one off the jungle. This justice system failed for me, and a lot other fellow country-men. Hope yours goes better.

greetz, Bart.
 
Hey my message got censored !
Cool. I never typed those stars!
Anyway, before you all go haywire over my words, I do not mean to offend anyone,

And, if the situation has no other exit, I call for the American vote. Kill if no other possible way comes to your mind. I refuse to be cattle in the hands of criminals.

P.S. This attidude will get you in trouble here in Belgium and in Holland too. Trust me, I know.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top