To kill or not to kill?

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I promise all of you that, as much as I love my knives and my firearms, I would be willing to give both of these up if we were to find a way to create an absolutely crime free and life fulfilling utopia on earth (short of having everyone just slit their wrist). But, I sincerely doubt that childproofing the planet is either a reasonable, desirable, nor rational objective. People have been assualting other people since before MAN learned to pick up a rock. Banning a few of our toys is not going to change that.

I can hear it now. "but, if only one life is spared.....Bla Bla Bla would be worth it. Fine let's do it. But, I want a guarantee that at least 1 life will be spared and I want a clear and unrefutable description on how we will test that supposition. And by the way Mr. advocate; can we hold you accountable for reckless manslaughter if you fail to protect that one individuals life?

(Back on subject)

Yes, I would kill someone to defend my family or myself. I wouldn't be proud of it, and I sincerely hope it doesn't come down to a knife.
 
Good heavens, we are not one, but getting close.

We all have the same basic feeling, don’t kill.
Ever had a neighbour who keeps you and your loved ones awake at night?
Feel like taking the hayfork and peak a leak?
Would it be self-defense because it is a mean attack on your children’s health?
Didn’t do it? Why not? If you don’t know your neighbour, it’s easier to hate him or her.
I got more familiar to my neighbour and the situation changed very much for the better.

What if the allies had acted like the nazi’s did to them, kill every german, or let them rot in prisoncamps? It’s an example where common sense overruled revenge.
Why kill the raper and put your life at stake, the deed has been done, better help the woman. Even it’s not easy to decide if it’s really a rape. Saying sorry doesn’t help you afterwards. Your adreneline takes over, watch it. You have to be trained to deal with situations like being confronted with a rape. If you kill the killer, you have become a killer too ,who then has to be killed and so on.
If you were a baker and someone wanted a bread but had no money?
Difficult decision, you would like to give the man a bread for his hunger but you know that people take your whole hand if you give them a finger. Next time he might bring a truck to put the bread on.
Are the big companies not selling us crap for food?

What if Jesus had defended himself, he was the one with the opportunity but he didn’t. Noone would have known him anymore if he had killed them and died a “natural”dead.

We are all aware that in the beginning we all are the same helpless babies. We are thought to do good or at least thought some difference between good and bad. Every boy wants a knife, woman feel different and they have problems understanding why we love our knives so much. Deep in our hearts we are all caveman and jealous about those few tribes who are still living, although very very primitive, in remote jungle area’s. We would carry a knife on a nude beach, a big one, ha ha.

I’m drifting away from the original topic, my intention was to make people think about that knives are made for cutting flesh,
alive or death, human or animal, they are not only tools. I’m glad you people have no criminal intentions but we must make clear that our knives must become only tools. You know these great Bowie-Knives? Well in the past they had to be forbidden because of the wounds they make, be it in a drunken bar fight, I can’t remember where I got this from. Better face each other the next day with your blued eyes and sour back then lying in a pool of blood because they chopped each others limbs off.

Did John Rambo I defend himself? Wow.

I’m not trying to tempt you for reactions but there’s no end to a topic like this. No problem for me but you might want me to shut up.

In a life threathening situation, my knife would be my weapon, my mind however is a much more dangerous weapon. There are more people killed with words than by swords. Your mind can heal and the world is full of people who need healing.

Be carefull out there, walk with your mind and your heart open for everyone. I always expect the best intentions in people I meet, I can always start to hate them later, even if it’s a burglar. Sounds strange for some of you, I know.

The best for you all, I would like to discuss this on a round table with all of you. Seeing eachother’s eye’s would make the discussion even more interesting.

Groetjes, Math



 
Folks - Sincerely, if the situation ever arise : I'd rather be a coward than a dead hero.
eek.gif
But if I'm cornered with a knife on my throat, there's little I can do but pray for a clean cut by a sharp knife...
frown.gif


Sam
 
Hello folks,

Math, I don't think anyone besides me and you understands "groetjes". Just say "greetz".
Care to continue this with an E-mail-conversation? My adress (click above on the mailto icon) is Bart.Weijs@student.kuleuven.ac.be

Actually you are saying knives have a stigma on them, marked to be deadly weapon. And in reality they are deadly, but besides that also a mans oldest, most primitive and most effective tool. You should see the people around me when I violently flick open a spyderco dragonfly (1.5 inch blade). The look at me like I hold a gun to their heads. Imagine I open a SIFU the same way?
The reason those people look at me that way is our commen problem, gentlemen. I cannot and will not specify that problem, it differs from culture to culture and is not clear defined. But we, all men and women (are there any women here?) involved in knives stand for that problem and we intend to help it.

That's why we (in Belgium) founded the BKS (Belgian Knife Society). We show the people how knives are made, how sheaths are made. We show them how knives are forged. We visit almost every fair in Belgium. And I must say, most people who have seen us and talked to us, look at knives a different way. If we make a knife, we always ask it's application, because we refuse to diconnect a knife made by us from it's function. We only make big, fighting knives for military personell. The average lenght of a hunting knife is 12 cm. In a use knife you don't need more. And, proud I can say we DO make a diffrence. Most people see us as archaic blacksmiths, but we don't make weapons. Anyone who asks is explained why. 1. it's illegal
2. it damages a knife's reputation as a tool.
And we stand for that reputation folks, like it or not. I think in the USA you should aim at the general public too and make this one off your primary goals. I think, in general you advertise knives as tactical too much, for commercial reasons. I find that rather stupid. That's also a reason I love Benchmade and spyderco, because they refuse to give their knives an aggressive reputation, and thus contributing to the general health of knife-reputation. Colsteel on the other hand...
mad.gif

But those problems are USA-problems. Over here, knive only get sold if they are advertised as nice and beautifull. That's why the USA has a different market of knives. tactical and combat VS Laguiole and Opinel style.

greetz, Bart.
 
Math,

You have overstepped the bounds this time pal, and have pissed me off.

In previous posts you have let it be known that you would like the whole wide world to get along with each other, with no arguing, fights, wars, etc. In your perfect little world, everyone would sit around smoking pot all day and things would be just beautiful.

First of all, man is a natural born hunter/predator, just as every animal big or small is. It is man's nature to strive for control of the food chain. Obviously, some people have the ability to control that hunger a little more than others.

This is why you have some predatory men/women who feel that they can do whatever they want to another human being.

In your last post, you say that a rapist should not be killed, and that the female would be better off if you just helped her afterward because it might not really be rape anyway. Have YOU ever been in that situation? Have YOU ever even come face to face with a rapist, murderer, robber, etc? I do EVERDAY pal, and these are not the people that should be allowed to wander around in our society.

You equate rape with a piece of bread. You say, just let him have it, and maybe he'll go away. Are you saying that if you came home and your wife or girlfriend was being held at gun or knifepoint and being raped, that you would just offer the guy a cup of coffee? Or perhaps a joint? What the hell is wrong with this picture?

In this country, forcible rape is a crime that can legally be met with DEADLY FORCE, period. I can personally guarantee you that if I come home and find a rapist in my home, there will be one less breathing human being in this world. And even if in your country, there would be some reprecussions to your action of killing a rapist, so what. Do you know how many murders start out with the intention of just rape?

You also say that if a burglar were to break in, you would talk to him and maybe get to know him, because there is good in all people. Are you friggin' nuts? Do you have any idea of how many simple burglaries turn into rapes and murders?

Let me make this real simple, if another human being is looking to harm you, you have no idea what is in his mind as to how much harm he wants to do, therefore the situation should be ended by any available means, PERIOD.

And one more thing, you stated that there is no end to a topic like this and that maybe people here would like you to shut up, yeah, I would like that very much, and I'm sure there are many others who would too.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
Sounds like idealism meets reality to me...

Jailhack has identified the problem with dreaming of a world of love and peace, there are some people in this world who are just plain evil. Maybe a product of their childhood, society, physiology, who knows. But one thing is for certain, it would take many generations to breed the paranoid hunter out of the many peoples of this world. And that would only result in a "peaceful" society if the peoples of the world took control of the money and governing powers of the world.

Brandon

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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Originally posted by Math Schlosser:

It's a fact that countries with many weapons among their civilisation, have a high crime rate, US being the best...
Click to expand...

I am sorry that you have been rainwashed by your socialist government, but weapons do not create problems. For instance, Washington, D.C. has the most restricitve fireamrs laws in America. It also has a huge crime rate and much of the city is VERY dangerous. Vermont, on the other hand, has the fewest restrictions on firearms, and has the lowest crime rate in America.

In Israel and Switzerland alike, adults are REQUIRED to posess TRUE assault rifles, and both have very low domestic crime levels (the Israelis have had trouble with terrorism, but human bobs can hardly be stopped with laws.)

England and Australia have both recently seen very restrictive firearms laws imposed. As a result, violent crime rates are up.

The fact is, crminals will always have weapons, and they are more willing to assault you if they think or know that you will be unarmed.

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
 
Crayola,

What if I came into a scene where a woman lays on the ground, I see man 1 kill man 2. Man 1 is you. You just killed the raper. I don’t know this, I only see you kill someone. Would it be wrong from my line off sight to kill you? I hope there’s noone coming around seeing only me killing you. Krrsss, I’m dead.

I live near the Ardennes and I’m more then I like aware off the bloodshed on the battlefield. There are a lot off cemeteries some filled with more the 40.000 dead young soldiers who died for all of us. Every once and then I visit some and you can feel the pain and the suffering when you’re there, it hurts you in the heart. You thank your quality of life today just as much as I do from their blood. The Siegfriedline passes a mile away and there’s no way for us here to forget what happened. Old pill-boxes still exist. They are there to remember, may we never forget what happened and hope that we may never experience a situation like that ever again.

We need an army to defend our country, trained killers.
We should not try to be soldiers at home.
We need a police-force to protect us against ourselves.
We are more threathened from within the country then from the outside.
We should give the police more credit and members.
It won’t last long or an enemy could just sit, watch and wait untill there’s noone left to conquer.
It’s this way it will go when everyone has a weapon.
Keep your knife in your pocket.
Looks like a doomsday-scenario, it is, it isn’t, it is. I….…..


Kaos,

Abolishing a law (in your mind) is a good way to remember why this law is here in the first place.
You’re right but don’t forget that little tiny laws can make a whole off a difference. If everyone thought alike there where no laws needed. However before there are laws you need reasons to make laws at all.
We all know the difference between a red and a green light on the street.
Take that law away, chaos would follow because man cannot oversee it all. We need laws for that so we don’t make stupid mistakes in our cars, our most common weapon. No speed limit? Just another example. No limits, no laws, no lives.
Laws should be there to tell you what to do not and not tell you what you have to do.
In case off selfdefence, I think the authorities have to deal with criminality , there is still far to less money spend on the justicedepartment. We have to find a way inbetween. You can defend yourself but it is your problem if you kill someone.
Maybe those new alternative weapons that don’t kill but immobilize are a better choice. Blood is so messy.


Bart,

Thanks for the translation.


Steve Harvey,

Off course not, it’s a minds game.


Esav Benyamin ,

You’re wrong my best man, I didn’t say the US is crimeridden but they have the highest crimerate. The problem with the guns concealed is that you gunners for a part feel naked without a gun and doesn’t have the courage to face life without that “guaranteed to kill” piece of earth melted and formed into an almost erotic subject, close to your body, feeling comfortable and cosy. Crime is only one reason not to give up your gun. Sorry for the formulation.

By the way, I never laughed at Orwell, man what are you talking about, the amount of drugabuse is much higher in the US then here in my little country, I think you, Esav Benyamin still live in the far west. You didn’t know that everything written down in this forum is being watched by your government. You don’t know what is going on in your own country.

Criminilize the behaviour, yeah, the behaviour is the biggest problem, who takes me on, I’ve got a gun but you don’t see it!
Life is much more relaxed when you don’t carry a gun. Ever leave it at home? Come to holland and we you teach how to live without guns allaround the house. Believe me, as a taxidriver I sometimes took the gun that I had with me, shoulderholster, concealed. You feel so different with a gun. You get more tense and more aware off danger around. Danger you don’t feel without a gun. Danger that is often only in your mind. The chances of being robbed are small. Many people carrying guns don’t really know what they are carrying.
The sound of a round panicks everyone around.

You’re right about your EU remark, what a stupid action. The Euro Parlement and friends have a lot to learn.


Jailhack,

Man I don’t envy you, what kind of environment do you live in? As you meet murders and rapists and robbers everyday, you must have a lot off notches on the handle of your gun. What do you do to this people, kill them,? I doubt it.
You make sentences of my words, I don’t like that, you misread my words, you’re to angry, possibly caused by your surroundings.
I’m just a hunter/predator like you and it will make you really pissed when I tell you that the mind is our greatest weapon and not our claws. It seems you are still in your premier hunter/predator stage, wake up man.
Talking to the burglar is a stage in dealing with the situation, you seem to shoot on sight.


Elvislives,

Good point, where idealism meets reality, a brief summary of daily life.
As not any criminal is evil, there are a evil people who are not criminals.
Try to make the percentage off good people higher, not every criminal was born evil, everyone deserves a change.

Stiletto,

I’ll take care off your funeral.
You’re partly right, in places where the situation already got out of hand, restrictive measurements will have not much of an effect. Restrictive measurements before things get out of hand will have very well positive effects. In dangerous places with strict fire-arms laws, the chance of being robbed is greater than being stopped by the police. Many people will carry weapons, criminals know this, they are their for other reasons. Big city’s have an underworld, a criminal base, ever present. Criminals are atrracted to that. Most criminals actions, especially those of young people are based on needs for drughabits, dreams of being rich in a short time, being cool, gangwars, and what ever reason they think of. They have to make the great mistake before they start realizing. We have to make them people again, not shoot them like dogs. There are people that only can be locked away to keep society safe, ofcourse.

The swiss army, a people’s army, they have their rifle to defend their country, not to shoot burglars.
Human explosives are so sad.

You are taking it the wrong way around, the laws came because of already rising crimerates. It would be even worse without stricter laws against arms.


Sincerely yours, all,

Math

 
To clarify "self defense" versus "retribution":

Why kill the raper and put your life at stake, the deed has been done, better help the woman. Even it’s not easy to decide if it’s really a rape. Saying sorry doesn’t help you afterwards. Your adreneline takes over, watch it. You have to be trained to deal with situations like being confronted with a rape. If you kill the killer, you have become a killer too ,who then has to be killed and so on.
Click to expand...

If the criminal assault ends when or before you arrive on the scene, your job as a civilian is to help the victim and summon the police, etcetera, and not to pursue and punish the criminal yourself. The conventional wisdom is that it is bad judgement for crime victim to pursue a fleeing criminal. But if you are the victim of a crime in progress, or you come upon a violent crime in progress, your duty is to do what you can to stop the crime, according to the facts and circumstances. There isn't always a policeman in sight.

If it is a crime against property - stealing from an unoccupied building for example - you would normally not be justified in killing or injuring the criminal, according to most legal systems I am familiar with. But if it is a crime against the person, with danger of great bodily injury or death - and that includes forcible rape - the victim or a rescuer is justified in using physical force, including deadly force if necessary, to stop the crime.

To what degree you would equip yourself in advance for "deadly force" sorts of emergencies depends on your assessment of danger. Here the west coast of North America, builders are expected to use more steel reinforcing in buildings than they do on the east coast, because they haven't had a big earthquake back east in recent memory. And there are times and places where you would reasonably burden yourself with a gun or some other dedicated weapon, and other times and places where you might not.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Math,
History has shown that when Europeans make consessions to criminals, Americans bearing Randall Made knives (knife content) will come to bail them out.
frown.gif

Seriously, I do not understand your point of view but I would fight to protect it. Go figure.
C.
 
Math,
Your little social studies discussion has been very interesting, but please allow me to bottom line this for you. The majority of U.S. citizens (those who make this country great) live by the basic premise that freedom demands holding individuals accountable for their actions. Once you begin to hold inanimate objects responsible for the evils of the world (or abide those who will; please consult nearest mirror at this point) you have built the foundation for a society where 6 million of your neighbors can be led into ovens while you stand helplessly by and watch. You may not have the stomach to protect the freedom you enjoy, but please don't preach to those who do. If I can, in any way, be more condescending towards you, please let me know how.

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Gentlepersons ...

Let us not get into a contest of nationalistic pride over the relative merits of Europe (a diverse place of many not-always-agreeable nationalities!) versus America (another rather diverse place!). And, speaking from my side of the pond, let any and all of us born-Americans here remember that none of us alive today have ever experienced a war fought on our own soil. And new-Americans who have known war in their old homelands...

... could a tale unfold, whose lightest word
Would harrow up thy soul, freeze thy young blood,
Make thy two eyes, like stars, start from their spheres,
Thy knotted and combined locks to part
And each particular hair to stand an end,
Like quills upon the fretful porpentine.
- Shakespeare, Hamlet
Click to expand...

And in many such wars there is nobody - Americans or anybody else - coming to the rescue of innocent lives. At least if one is armed, one has a chance of taking an enemy or two along, when one goes to find out whose side God really was on, after all.

And, since this thread is pretty much about a bunch of things that are bigger than knives, I'm sending it over to Politics Forum now.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Math,
You are lucky that you have not been faced with the siuation where you were forced to defend yourself or someone you cared for. I have been. While I don't consider myself an aggressive person, I will not be a victim either. You might be surprised what you will do when your attempt at conversation dries up.

I'd like to relate what happened to me.

I was taking a lady to dinner. We were leaving the car and heading for the restaurant. A man takes her purse and my wallet at knifepoint. We did not resist. At this point, he tries to force us to drive him somewhere. I refused. I don't know what he was thinking, but I could guess pretty good. I pulled my knife, and a struggle ensued. I have never been in the military, and have never even taken self defense classes. All I could think of was protecting this lady. I got cut up, but so did he. He ran away and was never caught. I ended up marrying this lady. After more than 25 years, this episode still haunts her. So you see, for this guy at least, the money wasn't enough. I still believe that he would have killed us.

I wasn't even going to respond to this thread until you mentioned rape.

A few months after the ordeal at the restaurant, I was leaving my job at about 2 in the morning. On my way to my car, I heard the sounds of a struggle and a woman crying. In between 2 buildings I saw a man on top of a woman. I opened my knife and went to help her. I pulled the guy off, and she went and called the police while I held him. It turns out that she was a co-worker who had left a few minutes before I did, but I didn't know that going in. Anyway, the police showed up. The man was arrested. He was tried and convicted of attempted rape and assault. I was also arrested. I was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, because I naively told the cop that I opened the knife before I went into the alley. I went to court, and the charges were later dropped. The poor lady who was involved had to testify at my trial and his. She had a rough time for years afterword.

What's the point to all this? If I understand you correctly, in the first episode, I should not have resisted at all, and in the second, I just should have taken her to the hospital or something. Besides, it was none of my business. Forget that. I wanted to see him punished for what he did. Note that even though I had my knife, I didn't kill him. Well, my wife and I survived, and the woman was sure grateful that I got involved. Who knows what the outcome would have been for any of us without the knife. I've been carrying knives all my life. I have used them in defense, but mostly as tools. They do NOT make me feel like I am some sort of Bad A$$ who goes out looking for a fight. Nor do they automatically make me kill someone.

Im sorry, but I don't feel that you can make blanket moral judgements like you have been until you have been there.

Jay.
 
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