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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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Today's Question: Can This Correctly Be Called a BUCK 110?
- Thread starter BG42EDGE
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Well, since it's been decided that only the blade matters...
...here for your consideration is a Buck 428...
"CUSTOMIZED" with softwood handles, seashell and coral applique, and fileworked frame.
Any bidders?
roflmao .. amg that is funny...
I'm thinking of selling my Custom Sports car built on a Chevy Camaro Frame, but I hope the guys at the newspaper don't mind if I call it a Custom Camaro. Especially when you pay per character.
We are all entitled to our opinions. And that's a fact
^^^ This ^^^
There are certain mass produced items, especially during the post WWII times (50s-70s) that have been the basis for all sorts of customization and "hot rodding" of various sorts. The Harley Davidson motor. Cars like the Camaro and Mustang. I'm an old bike (pedal kind, not the engine kind) and we have this same exact debate all the time. You see distinctions like "all original" (nothing modified), "period correct" (modified but only with parts from that era) and "modified" (all bets are off). I was mentored in the modified tradition. To my eye, a non-modified Harley is like a non-modified Mustang is like a non-modified (vintage) Trek is like a non-modified Buck 110. They're all signs of somebody to timid to bend the motorcycle, car, bike or knife to their will. Who owns the bike or knife? I do.
Not all designs are capable or worthy of mass, large scale modification. Only a few designs rise to the level of icon and with it, a whole range of cottage industries that support the on-going modification of the original factory thing. When this happens, the company's trademarked name moves beyond legal status to become a part of the culture's lexicon. The S&S V-twin motor can be called a "Harley" engine and everybody knows exactly what's being communicated. If I go to look at buying a used Mustang, the last thing I expect is to find an entirely stock Mustang (unless it's been advertised as such). For many years, people called Schrade LB7s and Kabar folding hunters "Buck knives".
Pretty much anybody who looked at the 110 that started this would recognize that it was built up on a 110 frame and that's enough to call it a Buck 110 in my book. Add this, the seller was very clear that the blade had been swapped out.
I'm sorry......what IS your point?
My point is that comparing motorcycles to knives is not valid. It's worse than apples and oranges......at least those are both round.
Nobody cares that the seller called that knife a Buck 110. People accept that just as much as they accept that a Harley can have an S&S motor in it, or that a Mazda Miyata can have a Ford 5.0 Liter V8 engine stuffed into it. It's still going to be called a Harley or a Miyata and that knife is going to be called a Buck 110. Any of the arguments that try to fixate on the blade as being the thing that makes a knife a knife are entirely arbitrary and open to wide differences of opinion. Knives are even less open to this sort of line of argument than cars are, which at least have defined standards that define which parts of the car get associated with the VIN. Or guns with the association of serial numbers to receivers.
Look, you want to consider that knife not be a Buck 110, that's just fine. I know tons of bike collectors who insist on "all original" types of rules for bike collecting. For you, that knife isn't a Buck 110 and that's just fine. But I think you're pushing rope to think that people who know Buck 110s and who are even marginally aware of all of the modifications being done to Buck 110s wouldn't walk up to the table, look at that (monstrosity of a) knife and say "Hey, look at the nasty looking Buck 110 with the weird blade." That's a Buck 110 in exactly the same way as a Harley with a S&S motor is still a Harley.
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I think pinnah actually has a valid point. It's a grey area, and often seems to be more about the "spirit" of the term than the "letter."
Also, isn't it funny how a smiley-face at the end of an internet post gives the author license to act as rude as he/she likes, with no repercussions?
Also, isn't it funny how a smiley-face at the end of an internet post gives the author license to act as rude as he/she likes, with no repercussions?
BG42EDGE is certainly not alone with his opinions on this sort of thing. I've heard others in other contexts make essentially the same argument. Couple of points...
First... I think there is only one organization who can assert what can and can't be referred to as a "Buck 110" and that is Buck. Buck, I'm sure, holds the trademark on that and they and they alone are in a legal position to enforce that, or not, on auction sites. BG42EDGE is entitled to his personal opinion on the matter, as am I or the next guy, but this thread is chock full of just that -- opinions.
Second... There is one other company that has a legal stake in such sales and that is the hosting site for the auction. It's their press and they can set the rules for sellers the way they see fit. BG42EDGE may not want to consider motorcycles, cars, bikes or other collectibles that routinely get modified, but I suspect a) the auction sites have a pretty good handle on the expected norms of how people refer to modified things in their adds and b) am real confident the original seller was way, way, way within those expected norms. If BG42EDGE feels really strong about this, I would suggest he divert more of his energies to the folks running the auction sites and to complain about his perception of misleading auction adds. But, I rather suspect that after the 3rd or 4th such complaint that he'll get flagged for complaining about things that are well accepted practices.
Third, I do think referring to modified knives by the name of their original frame and/or blade is very common. Here's an interesting example of a customized Buck 112. According to the add, the knife was customized by "Leroy Remer, Buck Knives' original Custom Shop Knifemaker". Maybe Leroy needs to be corrected on what should or should not be called a Buck 112? Notice that Leroy changed out the blade!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUCK-MODEL-...073?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item2a17410b11
Here's another 112, this one customized by David Yellowhorse. Notice that Yellowhorse has engraved the blade and engraved the bolsters. Would that void the warranty?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yellowstone...304?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item35b7ec2960
For the life of me, I can't see anything out of the norm with the original auction add that started this thread. It's clearly marked as being customized and if that is somehow wrong to call it a Buck 110... well... there are a lot of very, very, very well known Buck knife customizers who's work is known around the world who are doing very bad things by calling their customized knives Buck 110s or Buck 112s.
First... I think there is only one organization who can assert what can and can't be referred to as a "Buck 110" and that is Buck. Buck, I'm sure, holds the trademark on that and they and they alone are in a legal position to enforce that, or not, on auction sites. BG42EDGE is entitled to his personal opinion on the matter, as am I or the next guy, but this thread is chock full of just that -- opinions.
Second... There is one other company that has a legal stake in such sales and that is the hosting site for the auction. It's their press and they can set the rules for sellers the way they see fit. BG42EDGE may not want to consider motorcycles, cars, bikes or other collectibles that routinely get modified, but I suspect a) the auction sites have a pretty good handle on the expected norms of how people refer to modified things in their adds and b) am real confident the original seller was way, way, way within those expected norms. If BG42EDGE feels really strong about this, I would suggest he divert more of his energies to the folks running the auction sites and to complain about his perception of misleading auction adds. But, I rather suspect that after the 3rd or 4th such complaint that he'll get flagged for complaining about things that are well accepted practices.
Third, I do think referring to modified knives by the name of their original frame and/or blade is very common. Here's an interesting example of a customized Buck 112. According to the add, the knife was customized by "Leroy Remer, Buck Knives' original Custom Shop Knifemaker". Maybe Leroy needs to be corrected on what should or should not be called a Buck 112? Notice that Leroy changed out the blade!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUCK-MODEL-...073?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item2a17410b11
Here's another 112, this one customized by David Yellowhorse. Notice that Yellowhorse has engraved the blade and engraved the bolsters. Would that void the warranty?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yellowstone...304?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item35b7ec2960
For the life of me, I can't see anything out of the norm with the original auction add that started this thread. It's clearly marked as being customized and if that is somehow wrong to call it a Buck 110... well... there are a lot of very, very, very well known Buck knife customizers who's work is known around the world who are doing very bad things by calling their customized knives Buck 110s or Buck 112s.
BG42EDGE
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That was long on wind and short on substance and that's obvious to most, but.....I always try to help.
Hello. Leroy didn't call his custom knife a Buck 112.
He correctly refrained from that and called it a "Raptor" something or other and specified that it started life as a 112.
The Yellowhorse IS a Buck 112, so why wouldn't you call it a Buck 112?
As for the motorcycle banter......again, I don't care. It has nothing to do with knives.
See how that works?
And as for "diverting my energies," may I draw your attention to post 14? The auction was cancelled.
My energies were quite successful in the way that I used them.
Hello. Leroy didn't call his custom knife a Buck 112.
He correctly refrained from that and called it a "Raptor" something or other and specified that it started life as a 112.
The Yellowhorse IS a Buck 112, so why wouldn't you call it a Buck 112?
As for the motorcycle banter......again, I don't care. It has nothing to do with knives.
See how that works?
And as for "diverting my energies," may I draw your attention to post 14? The auction was cancelled.
My energies were quite successful in the way that I used them.
Really? Are we reading the same auction? Do you have a different definition of the word "refrain" than I'm aware of? Here's the exact title of that auction.
BUCK MODEL 112 KNIFE CUSTOMIZED TO MODEL 512 RAPTOR
Here it is again, just in case we're looking at different parts.
BUCK MODEL 112 KNIFE CUSTOMIZED TO MODEL 512 RAPTOR
So, I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but could you explain how this differs substantially from the title of the auction you're upset about which read
Buck 110 Knife Custom Damascus & Abalone w/ Filework
Both refer to the frame they started with. Both clearly indicate that they are customized. Both customizers replaced the blades. These are different how?
Why is it a 112? Just because it has the original blade?
The fact that Yellowhorse has "damaged" it by engraving his name on it doesn't bother you? Or do you consider just a little bit of frame modification OK? Would it be ok for a customizer to do scroll work down the spine of the blade (and create stress risers galore)? Would be ok for them to reprofile the blade and still call it a 110 or 112? Heaven knows we never ever see reprofiled 110s and 112s.
Yeh, actually, I'm catching on to how this works.
Ah, sleeping the sleep of the just! Must feel great. Keep it up. Go after others. Report back how the campaign continues.
You were very, very wrong to have complained about that and had I been the seller, there's no way I would have pulled the auction unless I thought crank pot complaints on the question page would drag down the selling price. Better to just wait and letthe Don Quixotes of the knife collectors world find another target. Dollars to donuts that knife'll get sold.
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pinnah, you will soon come to realize that there are those (a few) on this forum, that while they subscribe to the theory that everyone is entitled to their opinion, they are of the opinion that the only opinion that counts is theirs!
Buck seems to have their own opinion of what constitutes the model of a knife. They seem to believe the handle/frame is what makes it what it is. The one below is labeled as a 110 by Buck although the blade sure isn't a standard 110 blade and in fact doesn't even have 110 stamped on it.
Here's a couple more. the top one is labeled on the factory box as a 560 even though it has the mirror polished 110 stamped blade from the 2007 Founders Edition in it. The one below it is labeled on the factory box as a 110 even though it has the black powder coated 560 blade in it. There are numerous other examples, but these should be enough to make the point.
Buck seems to have their own opinion of what constitutes the model of a knife. They seem to believe the handle/frame is what makes it what it is. The one below is labeled as a 110 by Buck although the blade sure isn't a standard 110 blade and in fact doesn't even have 110 stamped on it.
Here's a couple more. the top one is labeled on the factory box as a 560 even though it has the mirror polished 110 stamped blade from the 2007 Founders Edition in it. The one below it is labeled on the factory box as a 110 even though it has the black powder coated 560 blade in it. There are numerous other examples, but these should be enough to make the point.
Ah... So, the Buck forum is like most other hobbyist forum on the internet!! :wink:
I heard Chet Atkins interviewed about the state of country music once. He said something and followed it up with, "Well, that's my opinion and it should be yours."
That's much more in line with my experience in looking at more knife auctions than my employer would like!! Lines up exactly with what I see in the bike collecting world too.
If I'm not mistaken, that's the BCCI paperstone 110 from a while back, no? Man, if that's yours, you can spraypaint me green with envy. That blade shape is incredible. I've not seen it on any other knife, or am I mistaken about that. It's like a Duke on steroids and I would love to get a hold of one someday. For the life of me, I can't understand why Buck isn't still selling the Duke or a thinned version of the 110 with the blade on the BCCI 110.
Keeping the picture just because it's such a pretty knife and should be reposted.
NOTE to Buck, please put that knife into production!!!
BG42EDGE
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Pinnah asks:
Easy. One tells you what you are buying........clearly......a "MODEL 512 RAPTOR."
And in the description he clearly states that it "started out" as a Buck 112. Couldn't be more honest or open.
Now, don't expect me to explain it any more clearly than he already has. If you can't understand it, that's just the way it's going to have to be.
The other claims to be a Buck 110 Knife and fails to specify what the knife is or even that it is something other than than Buck 110.
False and misleading.
(Superb examples, by the way.......perfectly demonstrates the difference.)
He didn't damage it. Why should it bother me? Nice knife......a Buck 112 (like I said).
Easy. One tells you what you are buying........clearly......a "MODEL 512 RAPTOR."
And in the description he clearly states that it "started out" as a Buck 112. Couldn't be more honest or open.
Now, don't expect me to explain it any more clearly than he already has. If you can't understand it, that's just the way it's going to have to be.
The other claims to be a Buck 110 Knife and fails to specify what the knife is or even that it is something other than than Buck 110.
False and misleading.
(Superb examples, by the way.......perfectly demonstrates the difference.)
He didn't damage it. Why should it bother me? Nice knife......a Buck 112 (like I said).