Tomahawk as weapon,spike or no spike?

GoatHerder said:
are you accident prone? If you are, then leave out the spike.
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BryFry said:
I remember the first time I got my hands on a spiked hawk ...I went to throw it using the same form I normaly use with a hawk, and managed to cut open my own head with the sharpened spike!! :o Pretty smooth huh?
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For some reason I find the combination of these two posts hilarious. :D



I strongly favor a spike for 1 vs 1 and slightly favor a hammer for 1 vs multiple. One advantage of the spike is that while practically nobody expects to be targeted in the middle of the chest with an axe a spike is great for targeting the heart.
 
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:rolleyes: I would suggest it would take more then a good bit of focus, training, practice, composure, and situational luck to place the spike end of a hawk into an opponent's heart in the heat of battle.
 
If you miss a bit and destroy a lung or the liver you've still accomplished a lot. It's certainly worth a try.
 
Because you can use the side of the hawk to hammer.

And really, How many people in this century have use EITHER for self defense?

I could put a serious hurtin on somebody with either end of my hawk, but I really don't see myself going into "battle" taking on multiple opponents with one.
 
Historically European woodcutting axes had thin blades and little or no poll. This resulted in the tool’s center of gravity being forward of the haft, making for poor balance and a tendency for twisting. This did not bother the European woodcutter much, as he only rarely dealt with hardwoods. Plentiful American hardwoods necessitated an evolution in technology. Thus American made axes had a beefed up blade section and a re-enforced poll. The poll moves the center of gravity back towards the haft, reducing the tendency of the axe to twist when it impacts a hard object. The poll also ads mass to the head of the weapon increasing the force with which it strikes.

Weapon grade axes developed polls in a variety of styles to deal with certain situations as defensive technology evolved. The advent of flexible, blade resistant armors (Lamellar and Wisby-coat-of-Plates) required a percussive attachment for hand axes; hence the hammer poll. Hard armors, such as Lorica Segmentata, Lorica Macula and Plate armor required a more “can opener” approach and so the pick or spike poll was born. Finally with the advent of reliable steel and the development of ultra-engineered armors (i.e. Maximillian Plate) it became more useful to disable an opponent, ensuring yourself more time to work on finding a chink in the armor, thus; the tripping hook or hooking spike poll.

In a modern setting, the hammer poll is useful in defeating soft armors such as Kevlar and leather jackets. It also is useful in situations where quick turnaround of a strike with the poll is indicated (such as when fighting multiple tangos). The spike poll is superlative for defeating hard armors such as the class IIIA Kevlar vest’s ceramic composite trauma plate and Kevlar and steel helmets. The poll spike is also an excellent dynamic entry tool, allowing for the easy shattering of glass for access to vehicle occupants and entry of buildings. I have also seen a re-emergence of the hook poll; with the inside of the hook being sharpened for an excelent manipulating poll that can also be used to manuver a tango or sever tendons, arteries or loose straps.

Recent developments in poll technology have resulted in a hybrid poll that I call the “chisel poll”. This type of poll can be seen on the Shrike Tomahawk by RJM Tactical. This is a poll that is elongated like a spike but either does not come to a point or only comes to an obtuse point. Instead the poll is bladed on both or all three sides. The chisel poll literally is a can-opener, opening steel re-enforced doors and the roofs of automobiles with relative ease.

Personal Opinion
Use the right tool for the job.
I typicaly carry two axes, one spiked one hammered.
 
I train with the tomahawk as a weapon. I have a trainer from Takknifes that is the match for the "Vietnam Tomahawk"....which seems to be what all the modern "tactical" hawks are based upon. It has a relatively short handle and a back spike. I don't like it as a "fighting hawk." I'm sure it works well and makes sense as a tool, but that short handle puts that long back spike just a bit too close to my own face or torso on some of the techniques and flourishes than I would like. Too little margin for error when the "shxt hits the fan." I much prefer a hawk with a longer handle and a hammer poll for that reason.

Keith
 
Not that it has any bering on combat, but the hammer poll on my 'hawk works wonders to nock a good flake of a difficult core...make an arrow so you can remov the hawk from the equation all together.
 
Bushman5 said:
in terms of a WEAPON, the spike will crush the skull AND penetrate deeply, giving someone a very BAD day and most likely death. However.....a HAMMER will ALSO crush skull, and spread out the hurt over a wider area. BOTH are gonna mess someone up BAD, and possibly kill or do severe brain damage.

Pros of the spike:

can be used as entry tool to breach metal doors and punch out locks, pierce drums to snake cables thru for barricades or empty drums of their contents, can quickly deflate a tire, can pierce a skull/face and do major damage, can pierce personal armour, Can be useful when scrambling up steep hills, for grip (jab in fallen tree, ground etc), can be used to dig out IEDs etc, will pierce security film windows, security glass, auto glass, bulletproof glass (dont ask how i know this), can pierce concrete and brick and adobe,

add some more!
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Very well said....I would also like to add that Peter Lagana the man responsible for bringing the Vietnam tomahawk into play did alot of research and hands on practice with the spiked hawk. As a weapon a person should learn how to handle it it they are going to carry it.
If I had to choose it would be the spiked hawk !
 
As a close quarter battle weapon the hawk is NOT suited as it requires too much room to get momentum.I like the hammer poll as it can stop an attacker FAST unless he has a helmet on,then his chest or neck are the best areas of attack.I cannot see trying to pierce a kevlar helmet and then actually not making noise !.I like the C/S hammer poll hawk as it thows well [ for me ] and I can chop wood well enough to say its actually a small axe too.To each his/her own.
 
Hawks used for ship to ship combat and Indian wars was mostly the spiked versions. Yes there are examples of both. Anyone thinking that a spike to the brain bucket won't make a quiet kill has never tried it. There will always be the sound of the blow whether it was hammer, reg poll, or spike- a thumping sound. You will have massive brain and skull injury with both and they will go down. A neck shot with a spike however, into the spinal column, will totally incapacitate the subject and quiet them until the rest of the body shuts down. In the process of parrying an AK, I have seen the stamped receiver penetrated by a spike rendering the weapon useless for anything more than a club. Use of a single hawk against multiple foes is best with a bowie or large knife as a week hand weapon and combining them as in the old days. Otherwise, in this respect, a hammer poll is fine. There are some good old books on the use of a hawk in combat that should be read before bringing one into duty. I'll look for them. A hawk shold be no longer than 18 inches in handle in order to be used as a CQB weapon. Shorter is even better.
 
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I maintain that a hammer blow will do all that a spike can do - oh and one thing less,ever try to retrieve a spike from a skull.Its a lesson in LEAVE the hawk and find another.If you doubt it,try a bit of an experiment by finding a deer or hog skull,bury that spike and then tell me how long did it take you to retrieve it.If you can without a saw or without breaking the handle.MNSHO s'all
 
Bomber258 LOL yes oddly enough I do do my homework before making tomahawks in general. Research into edge geometry, blade shape, profile, and yes, history and actual use cases. This was so that I could design something practical and not have to go with something that hasn't been made or used before. I have on hand 78 cases of actual use of a tomahawk in hand to hand combat culled from military in vietnam thru current age as well as accounts of use in journal accounts and military information. To remove a spike to the head effectively and quickly, you twist it like a wrench, gripping the top of the hawk and the bottom of the handle. Simple and effective. I have tried it on pig carcasses and hardwood rounds. It is the shape and edge geometry of the spike that will allow it to be effective in this way. Use of a hawk in combat was as a last resort against few foes only when all last options ran out. Hand to hand combat typically was one on one or one on two and resulted in the death of the foe- sometimes by falling on the foe with the hawk spike. They also were used to parry with the beard or the spike and to trap or trip the foe. A hawk beard parry is very effective for even bayoneted firearms and a sharpened back beard has been used to penetrate the foe into the deltoid region close to the neck severing the carotid. I would say, use what you find effective, and learn to use it well. I like the spike for all it CAN do, I can always find a club for bashing heads in if I need to. A hammer poll can't dig in like a spike can.
 
completely depends on the style of fighting, I would think, and your proficiency at throwing. I wouldn't want a spike on a throwing hawk, if it lands wrong it will just break off.
 
bomber258 said:
As a close quarter battle weapon the hawk is NOT suited as it requires too much room to get momentum.
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I disagree. If we are in close quarters, say a hall way, I am not limited with my hawk in the least. I can punch and pull with it all day long. If my opponent is not equally armed, their dead, period. And if momentum is necessary, I can still swing from above or below with little or no limitation. Remember, the hawk can be used like a knife. I can slice easily with my hawk, it does not have to be used as a hatchet to be effective. I can also hook with it and pull an opponent into me. Not a good thing for them if I have a knife in my other hand, or a brick, or, well, use your imagination...

And I would be curious to see the shape of the spike you had trouble removing from said skulls, I have had no trouble t'all.
 
Do some research on pole arms in the middle ages. Lots of interesting things with hammers, spikes, and both that might help you make a decision.
 
762 shooter said:
I disagree. If we are in close quarters, say a hall way, I am not limited with my hawk in the least. I can punch and pull with it all day long. If my opponent is not equally armed, their dead, period. And if momentum is necessary, I can still swing from above or below with little or no limitation. Remember, the hawk can be used like a knife. I can slice easily with my hawk, it does not have to be used as a hatchet to be effective. I can also hook with it and pull an opponent into me. Not a good thing for them if I have a knife in my other hand, or a brick, or, well, use your imagination...

And I would be curious to see the shape of the spike you had trouble removing from said skulls, I have had no trouble t'all.
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My 'point' was that even a moments time removing the point is too long if your in a life & death fight.Given the option to know in advance the number of opponents & the area we are doing combat in - well then I might choose the spike.Since that is never an option I will stay away from the spike under the extreme possibility that it will stick and have to be removed.The hammer poll will do 99% of what the spike will do - BUT the reverse is not so. A hammer blow to the skull will provide secondary projectiles and they will destroy that brain without the penetration that will result with the spike.I will do as I see fit - & you the same.
 
If you are swinging a hammer polled hawk fast enough to cause 'secondary projectiles' you are going to get that hammer poll just as stuck at a spike.
 
Look, choose what you want. It's that simple.

With a hammer poll you have two choices -- a deep penetrating hit (with the bit) or a hard bludgeon. It also adds utility as a tool for those of us not in combat 24/7.

If you want a spike because you have either a wide bit that won't penetrate as well, you want to drive something through body armor (good luck getting the spike back out of armor quickly), want two sharp edges, want to increase the probability of a "stick" when throwing, or just think they're cool, then go for it.
 
"Finally with the advent of reliable steel and the development of ultra-engineered armors (i.e. Maximillian Plate) it became more useful to disable an opponent, ensuring yourself more time to work on finding a chink in the armor, thus; the tripping hook or hooking spike poll."

Pics????
 
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