Tool Steel vs. Stainless

There are numerous quality stainless steels out there now compared to a few years ago the powdered process is amazing if they are heat treated right hold a great edge. For those of us that LOVE to forge we stick with carbon because it is our canvas.
 
I personally do not like stainless steel, but I wouldn't call it junk. There is some very good SS blade steels now days...
 
Lycosa said:
Your last sentence says it all, Joe.
rolf
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Not sure I understand what you meant here.. I know the basics, but didn't want to get into anything like what the steels contained as in each element, since I don't know about that. Thats why I came here to ask.
 
darrin sanders said:
I'm very curious as to how "prominent" this "company" is, when the owner makes statements like this. Perhaps you could inform him of this thread and ask him to explain his reasoning here. I'd love to hear his thoughts.
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Im guessing most guys here would know who they are but, I really would rather not say on here. I still want to do business with them as theyre the only locals who can laser engrave for a decent price. He's a nice guy, just has completely backwards opinions compared to the 100s of makers here.
 
james terrio said:
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that ;)

It's a worthwhile conversation though, just because it brings up the fact that we have a heckuva whole lot of really great steels from which to choose. Even the cheapest "junk" stainless or carbon that we sneer at today, would have been truly amazing to smiths, machinists and toolmakers only a few generations ago. If someone can't find an alloy that suits their knife needs now, they're either not looking very hard or their expectations are way, way out of whack. ;)

Dismissing a whole class of alloys is just aggressively ignorant... by which I mean not just dumb, but willfully ignoring the facts.
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I think a whole class of alloy can be dismissed as second-rate, at least in pure performance when sharpening with diamond hones: Carbon steels (though they still work well enough for me to buy them, I do so only when a stainless option is not available)... This is Knifemaker Jay Fisher's take on it:

www.Jayfisher.com

Quote: "I was shocked when I read on a knife maker's website that "Chromium prevents the steel from rusting but significantly degrades edge holding capabilities of the steel. All steels are composed of grains of the various alloying elements, the relatively large size of chromium results in a blade that will quickly dull and be very difficult to re-sharpen."

I was saddened when I read this, because it's completely wrong. It was easy to see why this guy wrote this; he's making damascus chef's knives, knives with blades out of 52100 plain carbon steel, and he's trying to paint a better picture of his plain carbon steel.

If you buy this guy's statements you are, sadly, misinformed. Let's get this very straight and clear. Chromium is an alloy that HELPS hardness, hardenability, and wear resistance, in many instances forming chromium carbides which are extremely hard and wear-resistant, quite the opposite of what this guy claims."

Another interesting quote: " "I have owned about 10,000 antique kitchen and butcher knives, and examined perhaps 20 times that number. I have found that good quality modern stainless steel knives, when properly sharpened, are superior in use to all older knives, even the very best. Stainless steel knives can be made at least as sharp as carbon steel ones, they stay sharp many times longer, and of course, they do not stain... the president of a major knife company put it very well when he said to me that preferring carbon steel knives over stainless steel ones is like preferring vacuum tube radios over transistor ones."

--Bernard Levine, Levine's Guide to Knives, 1985"

Yet you still hear, occasionally, how a carbon steel edge will outcut a stainless one... And so many factory knives are still made in carbon steel there must be a lot of people who believe it... Even Randall themselves openly claim that their 0-1 knives at 54-56 RC will outcut their 56-58 RC 440B by 10%, something I have a very hard time believing... But if even they can get it that far wrong, you have to wonder just how reliable are people trying to distinguish between stainless steels?

There is one aspect to this that is often overlooked: Because stainless is harder, if you are just using stones, even the hardest coarse stones lose their precise shape during sharpening, and so with a stone you will get a superior edge on carbon steel, just because of the lesser deformation of the stone for the same amount of stock removal...: All sharpening disadvantages of stainless disappear with good diamond hones.

I used to prefer Carbon because I could never get satisfying edges out of stainless with my stones, but the fact I always aim for 10° edges per side, even on large fixed blades, plays a role in this. With diamond hones, I find all the reasons for Carbon steel knives to exist have disappeared...

Gaston
 
colu41- What I meant was that a NEW steel can bring more knife sales.
rolf
 
Gaston444 said:
Another interesting quote: " "I have owned about 10,000 antique kitchen and butcher knives, and examined perhaps 20 times that number. I have found that good quality modern stainless steel knives, when properly sharpened, are superior in use to all older knives, even the very best. Stainless steel knives can be made at least as sharp as carbon steel ones, they stay sharp many times longer, and of course, they do not stain... the president of a major knife company put it very well when he said to me that preferring carbon steel knives over stainless steel ones is like preferring vacuum tube radios over transistor ones."

--Bernard Levine, Levine's Guide to Knives, 1985"
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Actually... most audiophiles do prefer vacuum tube technology to transistors, they claim it gives superior sound and there is quite a number of high end amplifiers with vacuum tubes. And I don't think it can be said in general that stainless steels are harder than carbon or tool steels (Hitachi Super Blue and ZDP-189* are I think hardened in 65HRC range, I think Super Blue and F2 have mostly tungsten carbides which are harder than chromium carbides, and F2 is hardenable even to 67-69HRC range).

* ZDP is, I believe, not stainless despite having 20% chromium- my Endura developed a stain from cutting a piece of meat seasoned with lemon (I did wipe the knife but had no means of washing it immediately after use... my bad), I'd guess that it's because most chromium is 'tied up' in carbides and not enough 'free' chromium is left to ensure rust resistance
 
colu41 said:
I am wondering the overall advantages and disadvantages of these 2 different types of steels
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It is difficult to generalize completely about these 2 classes of steels because there are so many alloys of each with wide ranges of properties, but I will throw a few out. On the average carbon steels will be tougher than stainless steels. In terms of stainless steels used in modern higher priced knives, stainless steels will have better edgeholding than carbon steels. Carbon steels are generally cheaper. Carbon steels on the average may be easier to sharpen than stainless steels.

But it doesn't have to a new steel- 440C is an older stainless steel that can perform very well if heat treated properly.

I said this in a similar thread elsewhere- pick a quality of knife steel (except corrosion resistance) and we can probably name a carbon steel and a stainless steel with similar performance. So in reality a person could say that carbon steels are better than stainless steels and it would be hard to dispute them. On the other hand a person could say that stainless steels are better than carbon steels and it would also be hard to dispute him. But if a person says that one or the other is junk, they are clearly wrong.

I like and carry both kinds of steel, for different uses.
 
Don Hanson III said:
Personal preference.
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Isn't it what it basically comes down to, in the end? One maker prefers 440C because it can be polished to a high mirror finish, another user likes a custom patina he can put on a carbon blade playing around with horseraddish... And all are valid reasons- there are high carbide content non-stainless steels and stainless steels with virtualy no carbides to speak of (I think AEB-L or 12C27 is one of those)- a good knife is more than just the choice of steel, as much as any properly heat treated suitable steel (coupled with a good design and proper maintenance) will stand up to most of the tasks one should expect from the knife. The days of 18-10 INOX (or 'surgical steel'- even though Case still clings on to that term), or explosion bonded knives are hopefully gone- both makers and users have no excuse to be ignorant, but they are free, if not encouraged, to express their preferences.
 
How dare they alloy my iron with more than 10.4% chromium!
 
Interestingly, from what I understand, a fair number of the modern PM stain resistant steels were actually designed to be used as "tool steels"
 
From Crucibles data sheet for CPM S90V. Typical applications-plastic injection & extrusion feed screws, non-return valve components, pelletizing equipment, gate & nozzle inserts, industrial knives, slitters, & cutters, long wearing specialty cutlery, injection molds & inserts, wear components for food & chemical processing, bearings, bushings valves, rolls, & gear pumps.
From the CPM S110V data sheet-Screw elements, barrels & barrel liners for compounding machines, industrial knives, slitters, & circular cutters, rolls & wear components for food & chemical processing applications.
From the CPM 154 data sheet-cutlery, bearings, & corrosion resistant tooling.
Most of the stainless steels we use for knives are considered tools steels and were formulated for purposes other than knives. These are just a few examples. Most data sheets list typical uses for that particular alloy.
 
Gaston444 said:
I think a whole class of alloy can be dismissed as second-rate, at least in pure performance when sharpening with diamond hones: Carbon steels (though they still work well enough for me to buy them, I do so only when a stainless option is not available)... This is Knifemaker Jay Fisher's take on it:

www.Jayfisher.com

Quote: "I was shocked when I read on a knife maker's website that "Chromium prevents the steel from rusting but significantly degrades edge holding capabilities of the steel. All steels are composed of grains of the various alloying elements, the relatively large size of chromium results in a blade that will quickly dull and be very difficult to re-sharpen."

I was saddened when I read this, because it's completely wrong. It was easy to see why this guy wrote this; he's making damascus chef's knives, knives with blades out of 52100 plain carbon steel, and he's trying to paint a better picture of his plain carbon steel.

If you buy this guy's statements you are, sadly, misinformed. Let's get this very straight and clear. Chromium is an alloy that HELPS hardness, hardenability, and wear resistance, in many instances forming chromium carbides which are extremely hard and wear-resistant, quite the opposite of what this guy claims."

Another interesting quote: " "I have owned about 10,000 antique kitchen and butcher knives, and examined perhaps 20 times that number. I have found that good quality modern stainless steel knives, when properly sharpened, are superior in use to all older knives, even the very best. Stainless steel knives can be made at least as sharp as carbon steel ones, they stay sharp many times longer, and of course, they do not stain... the president of a major knife company put it very well when he said to me that preferring carbon steel knives over stainless steel ones is like preferring vacuum tube radios over transistor ones."

--Bernard Levine, Levine's Guide to Knives, 1985"

Yet you still hear, occasionally, how a carbon steel edge will outcut a stainless one... And so many factory knives are still made in carbon steel there must be a lot of people who believe it... Even Randall themselves openly claim that their 0-1 knives at 54-56 RC will outcut their 56-58 RC 440B by 10%, something I have a very hard time believing... But if even they can get it that far wrong, you have to wonder just how reliable are people trying to distinguish between stainless steels?

There is one aspect to this that is often overlooked: Because stainless is harder, if you are just using stones, even the hardest coarse stones lose their precise shape during sharpening, and so with a stone you will get a superior edge on carbon steel, just because of the lesser deformation of the stone for the same amount of stock removal...: All sharpening disadvantages of stainless disappear with good diamond hones.

I used to prefer Carbon because I could never get satisfying edges out of stainless with my stones, but the fact I always aim for 10° edges per side, even on large fixed blades, plays a role in this. With diamond hones, I find all the reasons for Carbon steel knives to exist have disappeared...

Gaston
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Ignorance is bliss...until you put one of your stainless blades up against some CPM M4, or REX 121. The stainless wont be harder, or more wear resistant. I can promise you that.
 
I'm not familiar with REX 121 but there are stainless steels that are MUCH more wear resistant than CPM M4. Check out CPM 110V & CPM 125V.
 
12345678910 said:
Some people are stuck knowing what they knew 40 years ago and never learn anything different.

Some people will insult anything else besides their own ideas, work...

Some stainless is junk





Getting someone to convert from the carbon vs stainless side is like ford/chevy or s religious debate.
Facts don't matter and won't make a difference.
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This statement is spot on regarding so much more than knife debates. If you keep this in your wallet and read it before getting into a "debate" with most people about most things, you will save yourself many headaches.
 
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