Tool Steel vs. Stainless

Hello Darrin,
People have tested steels including M4 and S110V for cutting materials such as cardboard and rope and found that S110V had more wear resistance. I realized that I have a Spyderco Manix 2 in M4 steel and another in S110V so I did my own little test with some big cardboard boxes I had in the garage. I found that my M4 cut a little longer than my S110V. People with more experience than I have suggested a problem with my methodology and I can't argue with them. It does point out that the testing is difficult and results can vary. I typically carry the stainless blade during the week and the carbon steel blade on weekends, thinking I'm more likely to need the increased toughness of the carbon steel blade in my weekend activities.

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I'd be interested to know the condition of that S110V blade (RC hardness, etc.). There's no way M4 should outperform S110V for wear resistance, all else being equal.
 
Why would there be no way? There's many variables that could explain how unexpected results would happen...

To answer Patrick's point of Aus-8 chipping more than 440C, I have a forged 440B Model 14 Randall that has a few small chips (very unusual for me, but I don't blame the knife): If your Aus-8 chips even more, it could very well be due to the different knife it is on, unless you built two identical knives with exactly the same edge geometry, same optimal heat-treating, same edge thickness, same edge surface finish... And even then, your useage could have been different in the loads it applied: My Randall chipped because I did not realize the curved portion of the edge can take far, far more side load than the straight portion, despite my making absolutely sure the sharpness and edge bevel was very consistent throughout the blade (which is easy to do on the thin edges of Randalls): The curved edge belly spreads the side load, and makes the edge's belly far tougher, even with the same edge geometry, same steel, and on the same knife...

Similarly, there are edges I put on that lasted, and others that didn't, on the same knife... And I do check for wire edges... Somehow you never hear of that happening with people who are confident they can tell minute differences in steel composition...

Gaston
 
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Off course the stainless steel and that also the 440C stainless steel.
I do believe during my experience with knives that the knives blades made from 440 steel are best knives in the world to be used for multiple applications
 
i certainly can, i use my knives in the woods and 440c i find to be tougher and hold a similar edge to aus-8, i find aus 8 chips even when 440c does not.

Chipping and wear are largely the result of heat treat and geometry. One of the advantages of buying a knife from a well known smith is the attention many of us put into our heat treat. Grain refinement, stress relief, and knowing the optimal sweet spot for wear resistance/edge holding at different geometries and with different steels. This is why most smiths stick to a small number if steels they know well.
 
I don't believe he was just saying "they are the best". He mentioned to be used in multiple applicationsafter that.
 
... I did not realize the curved portion of the edge can take far, far more side load than the straight portion, despite my making absolutely sure the sharpness and edge bevel was very consistent throughout the blade (which is easy to do on the thin edges of Randalls): The curved edge belly spreads the side load, and makes the edge's belly far tougher, even with the same edge geometry, same steel, and on the same knife...

Please excuse my incredulity. I've been wrong before, but in terms of micro-chipping or even flat-out breakage, that sounds like outright baloney sausage to me. It just doesn't make any sense at all. If what you describe is true for that knife, the HT on that knife is badly inconsistent.

I have never experienced or witnessed or even read about any difference in how steel of any hardness/thickness/geometry reacts that way to localized stress differently "because it's curved". In fact, a curved section will be weaker, not stronger, because there's simply less material backing it up, where the stress is actually happening.

More steel is more stronger. It's as simple as that.

I am not posting this to confront you personally, I'm posting it for the benefit of people who may stumble across this thread 5 or 10 years from now. The notion that steel somehow magically gets "stronger" because it's ground to a curve, or tapered, is absolute nonsense.
 
Hmm...the curved part is so often a less keen grind than the straighter part of a knife, I see this especially on not-the-finest
handmade knives all the time, where the main cutting edge is ok, but it turns into a blunt scandi or saber grind out toward the point...maybe that's where that came from?
 
"lower than optimum hardness" may be the understatement of the year. The common claimed "benefit" of running stuff like 1095 at 55-56 using "proprietary heat treatment methods" seems to be enhanced toughness. Sure a piece of plain carbon steel left somewhere cutting tool and the high end of spring hardness is going to be "tough" So what? Unless, of course, you want a springy pry bar. :D

I'll just throw in one more thing: most cooks won't learn to use a water stone in order to do daily maintenance on a high hardness blade (I've put a bit of time into schooling some local chefs not to try to steel their beautiful japanese knives), and generally speaking, a 55-ish blade can be steeled for a good long time and still sort of cut....not sure what the cutoff would be, mine seem to steel ok at 60, if I'm feeling to lazy to touch them up on the water stones, but I'm pretty careful doing it, using a light touch.
Just saying that that might be a good reason for a cook to be happy with a Wusthof-ish blade.
 
When I started making knives 440c was a steel a lot of people used because it was what was available.a short time latter ats34 came along .We used tool steel like d2 as it had a higher crome content and was stain resistant to a point.A2 is what I used for blades that would be abused as it had good shock resistance.Today steel is like a big menu that is hard to keep up with all the different types.In my first years of knife making I used 440c,a2, d2 and o1 for people who didn't care if it rusted pretty quick if not cared for.When stainless cheap knives came out they were horrible and wouldn't hold up.So guys who had good carbon steel knives labeled them as all bad pretty quick and a lot of them were thrown away.Today the knife buying public has become more educated about steel and materials that go into a good knife.
 
Please excuse my incredulity. I've been wrong before, but in terms of micro-chipping or even flat-out breakage, that sounds like outright baloney sausage to me. It just doesn't make any sense at all. If what you describe is true for that knife, the HT on that knife is badly inconsistent.

I have never experienced or witnessed or even read about any difference in how steel of any hardness/thickness/geometry reacts that way to localized stress differently "because it's curved". In fact, a curved section will be weaker, not stronger, because there's simply less material backing it up, where the stress is actually happening.

More steel is more stronger. It's as simple as that.

I am not posting this to confront you personally, I'm posting it for the benefit of people who may stumble across this thread 5 or 10 years from now. The notion that steel somehow magically gets "stronger" because it's ground to a curve, or tapered, is absolute nonsense.

No it's not: The curvature of the edge "spreads" the load over a broader portion of the edge's length, even when the load is narrowly applied by the angular upper surface of a wood plank you are digging into: In the belly of the edge, the whole edge bends evenly, not just a small area. Being weaker and more flexible, the curve bends more widely with less stress, which means less rigidity and thus more strength... On a straight edge portion, the narrow load remains concentrated on only one more rigidly supported point (more steel, as you pointed out, which can mean more rigidity, which in turn can mean less strength at the edge because of less bending flexibility). The concentration of the force on a narrower straight area means a sharper transition of bending angles, because the bending angles start closer to the center of the pressure: The edge springs back to true on the curved belly, the bending curves starting further away from the pressure point, due to the weaker overall support, and the sharper bends stay broken or bent on the straight, havind started closer to the pressure point...: Curved bellies will tolerate far more lateral load abuse than straights, even if they are just as thin and sharp...

The point made by elementfe about the edge grind usually becoming more open and stronger, by being duller near the point, is a very good point to make, and is very correct for just about all knives with deep bellies, but not on the one I was using(!): I spent a lot of time and effort thinning the Randall's initially hugely dull point, then sent it back for a full regrind at Randall, which did finally thin the point and the edge geometry to sort of match the straight portion (at my expense): I then thinned the point further before the damage to the straight edge was done... (Both the 14 and 18, both 18 style blades, were very thin edged, but so dull-pointed, thick-pointed and round-pointed that both knives as delivered would be perfectly safe for hard no-sheath sparring -the Carbon 18 a little better-... And no, I am not kidding...: I took pictures of the point grinds: Unbelievable...).

Knives getting awfully thick and dull near the point is my biggest peeve in all of knifedom: This was not a major factor here: It is a good observation though, as I rarely hear anyone complain, or even mention, this issue...: It is a cosmetic compromise done to have the edge bevel look consistent in height throughout the knife: The result is dull as hell points, especially when the belly is pretty deep...

Gaston
 
"more steel, as you pointed out, which can mean more rigidity, which in turn can mean less strength at the edge because of less bending flexibility"

How does that work again, exactly? Adding more steel to an object makes it weaker, because it no longer has as much "bending flexibility"?

You'll have to talk pretty fast to sell that to me.
 
Being weaker and more flexible, the curve bends more widely with less stress, which means less rigidity and thus more strength...

Sorry friend, you're talking in circles.

"more steel, as you pointed out, which can mean more rigidity, which in turn can mean less strength at the edge because of less bending flexibility"

How does that work again, exactly? Adding more steel to an object makes it weaker, because it no longer has as much "bending flexibility"?

You'll have to talk pretty fast to sell that to me.

There's been a lot of fast-talking on this topic for decades, although thankfully there's less and less of it lately. The biggest one is, "Tapered blades are stronger!" No, they're not. If they were, crowbars would be tapered...

I suspect it stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of what strength and flexibility really are, why hammers usually have a slightly curved face (it's to focus energy, not spread it out) and how stress risers actually work. Also, old wive's tales and outright baloney sausage/hype.
 
"more steel, as you pointed out, which can mean more rigidity, which in turn can mean less strength at the edge because of less bending flexibility"

How does that work again, exactly? Adding more steel to an object makes it weaker, because it no longer has as much "bending flexibility"?

You'll have to talk pretty fast to sell that to me.

Let me put it this way, and I really hope this time I come through...: If there is less steel in your lever, whatever you are trying to break with that lever becomes stronger relative to that lever... And if the metal lever is weak enough to bend under the effort, then it affords you more excess effort without risk of breaking what you want (or don't want) to break...

On the curved belly portion, there is less "other" steel level with the edge portion under stress, so that edge becomes stronger relative to the available lever... And this does mean you can afford to apply more force without experiencing edge breakage... Why not apply less force then? Because our perception is sometimes coarse, so a weaker lever compensates by absorbing too easily applied efforts...

Since the work in my case was cutting wood, and then applying side forces to the edge, the bending of the curved edge afforded much larger excess efforts without edge breakage... (There is also the additional "wastage" factor of my effort being misaligned to the edge by the edge curvature)

If you leverage a door with an iron bar, it will take you less effort than with a bamboo stick, because your effort is wasted in bending the bamboo, and not all your force is applied to the door...

I'll grant you saying the curved edge is actually stronger is wrong: As a practical matter, all else being equal, it does require far more physical effort to cause chips on it...

It is the same with the tapered blade: It is not stronger, but by wasting your effort in allowing a bend, it does give you more warning of impending breakage, even if it breaks earlier... In addition, the effort you waste bending it has to be added to the effort breaking it, so there is more effort involved for the same thickness at the break.

You are right that the tapered blade being thinner, it will also break earlier, but then you are no longer making a proper comparison...

For the same reason most aircraft wings are tapered, because bending at the tip absorbs loads that would be otherwise be transmitted directly to the wingroot: When the wing does not taper, the whole aircraft has to be a lot smaller or lighter, with much more rigid wingroots... (And lightly wingloaded aircrafts do skip on tapering the wings, in the interest of lift)

Gaston
 
It is the same with the tapered blade: It is not stronger, but by wasting your effort in allowing a bend, it does give you more warning of impending breakage, even if it breaks earlier... In addition, the effort you waste bending it has to be added to the effort breaking it, so there is more effort involved for the same thickness at the break.

Coming from a guy that has broken every steel tool that is available, IT DOES NOT TAKE MORE EFFORT TO BREAK A THIN TOOL

A level headed guy like me might accuse you of taking a few bong hits before you made your post, this argument sounds familiar...global warming will cause cold weather ;0)
 
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