Torch hardening v/s forge-kiln

[milesofalaska]

I’ve made and sold over 500 knives in my life but never been to a knife show, never worked under anyone, had any lessons, so feel off in left field someplace reading the discussions. Question on heat treating. Is it common to heat treat with a torch as was done in the past? Or is this considered inferior or a No – no from a professional standpoint. I work with simple oil quench steels 01, 1995, and D2 (which seems to do ok for me oil quenched even though it is air steel.) I think I view the whole process of knives- working steel as ‘an art’ not a science. I am an artist not an engineer. I do not work well with numbers or straight lines. I like freehand and how it looks- how it feels. I tend to heat treat from the middle to the edge and leave the back soft. I have no way to test the blade beyond using it and seeing how it holds up. A file does not touch the edge, I sometimes draw it back with the torch (to straw color or whatever I wish) and sometimes normalize in the 350 oven – sometimes 2-3 times. I am not noticing much difference in performance . So wonder why I bother. I want to know if there is a huge difference and I am just not seeing it? By ‘test’ I mean I use the knife a month or so cutting open boxes, shaving wood, skinning game, maybe pry open a lid, even open a tin can and seeing how it effects my edge. I’m pretty sure all the knife steel is better than store bought factory. But maybe that is not hard to do. I’m sure it can be better, but wonder if it is worth 3 times the time- and if it will be worth 3 times the price. My big question I suppose is if any of you who know more than I do can tell me if there is something specific to keep an eye out for or if there is a big risk of blade failure. I have never had a customer come back to me and tell me they were disappointed. Had many tell me how they skinned out a moose and how great the knife was. So this leaves me curious why … well why all this is such a huge big deal. Forges and kilns and such. Are my customers not serious knife people? If my knives blades were put to a test would they be off the scale terrible? Can I send a blade someplace and have it analyzed and learn something from the results? All in the name of we can always learn something and improve. I even have a kiln! Use it for burn out for lost wax casting. I tried to use it to heat treat blades and was not happy with how long the steel takes to get to temperature and maybe loss of carbon and scaling, and temperature drop as I get it over to the quench bath. With the torch I am right over the bath, get it to temp, put er in the quench, slam bam thank you mam done deal. Entire process 2 minutes (1/8th steel). Is that sacrilege? Some input please.

 

[LRB]

By the book, everything you are doing is either wrong, or at best, less than ideal. However, if you are satisfied, and your customers are satisfied, Who can really say you're wrong. I would never heat treat any of those steels the way you do, but if it works for you and your customers, I am just going to shake my head, and say do as you think best.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Mr. Alaska, or may I call you Milesof? Feel free to call me Kevin, Mr. Cashen always sounds like I am in trouble. It sounds like you are very happy with your process and the results, isn't that what really matters since they are your knives. Why worry about what other people think as long as you are happy. As long as your customers are happy and you are fully honest with them and yourself about what you are doing you shouldn't need validation from folks who do it differently.:thumbup:

Edited to add, that I would suggest that torch heat treating would probably be less traditional than a kiln or certainly a forge. In the history of smithing torches are pretty new fangled stuff and kilns are more in the line succession from the ancient forge than the fewer exceptions of torch use.

 

[12345678910]

If you are happy with the results of eyeballing temperature and oil quenching, then why not go to 1070 or 1085 which is more suited to that process than the more expensive 01 and D2 which need much more control and precision to get the best results.

If you can't notice the difference between 1095, O1 and D2 then it's because you haven't reached optimum from each of them.
I've torch hardened O1, and sent it out for professional HT, there is a difference.

Something I notice is that you say you sometimes do this, and sometimes do that...
consistency is key in getting best results.

I think it's true your customers don't know any better.
They probably trust you to know your craft, and expect you to do it to the best of your ability.
Why cheat them of your best efforts.?
If I buy a knife of D2, I expect that it has been properly heat treated with soak, and cryo for peak performance, not torched and dunked...


If you read some proper heat treating methods, you will see proven ways to get that best result.

You know O1 needs a soak, and you probably know about foil wrap or antiscale coatings. but the impression I get is that you have no patience or can't be bothered...


For me a knife is different from art sculpture because it is useful and at the heart of that usefulness is proper steel and heat treatment.

 

[Sunward]

There is room for improvement.Maybe your not optimizing toughness and wear resistance. what is your Rockwell number like...

from a science viewpoint the temperatures need to be right. your doing something right, if customers dont complain. anyways just check out a simple sight on 01 and D2, and maybe keep the temps a little bit below ....this is -improvement-
http://ajh-knives.com/metals.html

 

[LRB]

12345678910, You know his methods are not correct, Kevin knows they are not correct, and I know it, But, if his customers are happy with what they get, who are we to give unsolicited advice? Over 500 knives, and no complaints, what can you really say? As long as the buyer is satisfied, and has the option to return his purchase if not, and he does not misrepresent them, what more can one ask? I am a bit unsure of why he posted. If he asks for advice, he can surely get it here, but if he is doing well as is, from his point of view, why bother? Just recently, I ran into a guy, who has a website, who was way off base with 1095. He made some outlandish claims as to why his blades were the best because they were forged, and that no other blades could be as good, unless made exactly like his. The epitomy of over hype. At least Mr. Alaska is not playing that game, or does not give that impression anyway. He is at least field testing, which in the end, is where it counts the most. Over 500 knives, and assuming no returns or complaints, neither you, nor I have any room to criticise his operation.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Since his bio says he has 30 years experience and he is a self sufficient knife maker, I guess he really doesn't want any advise from us to make any changes.

As to those who say no one has complained - Bernie Madoff had lots of satisfied customers....that didn't make his methods right....or good.

If Miles of AK is asking for advise - D2 needs a different HT than a torch can provide. O-1 and 1095 can be HTed with a torch, but will not likely reach their full potential.

My other comment would be - If I had made and sold 500 knives, I think i would have invested in a HT oven or a forge by now.

 

[12345678910]

12345678910, You know his methods are not correct, Kevin knows they are not correct, and I know it, But, if his customers are happy with what they get, who are we to give unsolicited advice? Over 500 knives, and no complaints, what can you really say? As long as the buyer is satisfied, and has the option to return his purchase if not, and he does not misrepresent them, what more can one ask? I am a bit unsure of why he posted. If he asks for advice, he can surely get it here, but if he is doing well as is, from his point of view, why bother? Just recently, I ran into a guy, who has a website, who was way off base with 1095. He made some outlandish claims as to why his blades were the best because they were forged, and that no other blades could be as good, unless made exactly like his. The epitomy of over hype. At least Mr. Alaska is not playing that game, or does not give that impression anyway. He is at least field testing, which in the end, is where it counts the most. Over 500 knives, and assuming no returns or complaints, neither you, nor I have any room to criticise his operation.

But he did ask...
whether to get real info; or for us to tell him that it's ok to keep doing it that way, I don't know...

but I'd rather deal with truth than Hype

 

[beaterAR]

Im a newer knife maker so don't take my words as anything beyond what they are, just my opinions and things I have tried.

The journeyman smith test is what i would do if you don't have all the bells and whistles to test. While it docent show if you have made the perfect knife , it dose show ya if you have made the knife "Good enough" Ill take actual testing over a RC scale any day. The journeyman smith test is available on line but it is basically

Sharpen the knife to popping hair sharp
Cut through a 1in piece of free hanging rope with a single swing.
Is it still hair popping sharp
chop through a 2x4 twice
is it still hair popping sharp
Bend the knife to 90 degrees with padded vice jaws and a pipe
did the blade break, or chip out or crack?

If you can do that with your blade it is well up to standards

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

…Over 500 knives, and no complaints, what can you really say? As long as the buyer is satisfied, and has the option to return his purchase if not, and he does not misrepresent them, what more can one ask? I am a bit unsure of why he posted. If he asks for advice, he can surely get it here, but if he is doing well as is, from his point of view, why bother?...

Bingo! :thumbup: Somehow along the line some folks got the idea that I or others wanted to tell other people how they should make their knives, speaking for myself nothing could be farther from the truth. Whatever way works best for them and makes them and their customers happy is the correct way, in my opinion. So I would disagree that I know the methods in question are not “correct”, I know they are not optimal for the properties I desire in a knife but only the maker and his customers can determine correctness.

...Just recently, I ran into a guy, who has a website, who was way off base with 1095. He made some outlandish claims as to why his blades were the best because they were forged, and that no other blades could be as good, unless made exactly like his. The epitomy of over hype. At least Mr. Alaska is not playing that game, or does not give that impression anyway. He is at least field testing, which in the end, is where it counts the most. Over 500 knives, and assuming no returns or complaints, neither you, nor I have any room to criticise his operation.

Amen, once again, I can’t say it fervently enough that I don’t care how anybody else makes their knives… Just be honest about it! Heat with charcoal made from the bones of saints while facing north for all I care, just don’t wizz on my head and tell me it’s raining! Make the best knives you personally can and claim just that, don’t start spouting garbage about how heat sources with unknown temperatures with home spun methods produce superior results to precise parameters for that steel, and I promise not to say my salt baths are magic either. It has always been the claims made, not the methods used, that I felt needed to be challenged, our customers and our craft deserves better. Create knives how you like to make them instead of creating tall tales in order to validate how you make knives.

The original poster appears to be making knives how he likes, but I can understand how the Count may be confused as to whether his question is purely rhetorical, and how exactly we can help him.

 

[beaterAR]

MOA I just found your sight and man you got some handle material, The handles on some of the knives you make are folk art alone and just awesome!

this one is great, I love the raven guard.

and this folder.....WOW

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Im a newer knife maker so don't take my words as anything beyond what they are, just my opinions and things I have tried.

The journeyman smith test is what i would do if you don't have all the bells and whistles to test. While it docent show if you have made the perfect knife , it dose show ya if you have made the knife "Good enough" Ill take actual testing over a RC scale any day. The journeyman smith test is available on line but it is basically

Sharpen the knife to popping hair sharp
Cut through a 1in piece of free hanging rope with a single swing.
Is it still hair popping sharp
chop through a 2x4 twice
is it still hair popping sharp
Bend the knife to 90 degrees with padded vice jaws and a pipe
did the blade break, or chip out or crack?

If you can do that with your blade it is well up to standards

I have overseen and administered the Journeyman smith test more than most people have tried it, so let me be clear that I am not taking you to task here beaterAR, but feel some clarification is needed. We all can benefit from better clarity and understanding of what actual "testing" is or is not. It is common to say that this test or that test tells us what we need to know, but it is interesting how often we never really stop to ask what it is that our favorite test really measures or tells us. For instance, what does the Journeyman smith test tell us? Which properties does it measure and gives quantifiable standards for? Rockwell tests give very precise numbers on the specific property of penetrative hardness that are quite standardized and objective. It is in every sense of the word an actual test.

It is assumptions in testing that so often spawns many of the less that responsible claims. To many makers favor tests that tell them exactly what they want to hear. Vague tests that give no hard, objective numbers so they can be more easily woven into those tall tales without inconvenient facts getting in the way.

I do believe that the number one best way to assess a knife is to use the thing hard the way you intend it to be used, but as much as I favor this approach I have to admit that it is not an objective test that can accurately measure a specific property. People can claim they have a superior heat treatment because they worked up a sweat cutting things with the knife, but in reality it only says their hands and that knife worked together, it doesn't really accurately measure anything about the heat treatment. I have had blades with good geometry and terrible heat treatments feel and cut quite nicely, to use this as a testament to my thermal methods would be less than honest, and honesty, not the perfect knife, is what I think most people want.

 

[milesofalaska]

Miles here who startred the thread
I appreciate the comments and info. As stated I would not ask if I did not want a reply. It is difficult in a short forum to explain where I am at, how I got here etc. Partly- I ‘do’ a great many things. Some well, some not, some is a blend. I am an expert at a couple of things. Even one of the best in the world at a couple of things. I’m willing to admit when I do not know much. I do not think I need to feel guilty or ashamed. I build knives with handle as the focus and design as the focus. I could put my work on a butter knife and it would sell and customers would be happy. (I’d be honest) I began years ago with factory blades. I feel my work – crude as it is, is an improvement over the kit blades or general factory blades- just from using the different blades. I’m sure they can be improved. I needed to be told. Ok, that can be done nicely. I suppose I too shake my heads at how many knife makers deal with materials for handles that I have knowledge about. I like to think we all find our nitch, we all find a place that makes our knives different from anyone else’s if we are in business. With me it is the designs and the handles and artistic side. I want the steel to be ‘adequate’ I’m not lazy. Yes ‘inconsistent” because every single thing I do is one of a kind never to be repeated. There is good in that and bad in that. If there was room I might chat about my success based on being so far out in left field. Artists Jewelers who told me things I do were impossible to do. Whose jaws fell open when I showed them where I ended up- on the track I’m on.
So I will try some other steels as suggested- thanks! . I began with crosscut saws leaf springs – my first blade was from a shovel, shape shot out with a 357 pistol as the only tool I had. I spent 25 years alone in the wilderness spending 8 months at a stretch without seeing another human being. No electricity. I worked with what I had. I learned the most about ‘animal parts’. I suppose most of my customers have read my books, kind of buy into my life, my story and want a piece of that and do not expect- and understand - I am not an expert blacksmith. I do not say I am (as pointed out- I do try to be honest). I cut my own trees for the wood, find most of my own fossils, kill my own animals the bones come from etc. Keep in mind as some of you know 10 times what I do about steel, I may know 10 times what you do about natural handle material. Many of you might look as incompetent telling me how you deal with mammoth teeth. I say this so we may all look around at each other and see our strengths- work together learn from each other. Anyone who gets a knife they are not happy with from me has a lifetime guarantee money back no questions. It’s never happened. I personally think it is a sad commentary on the lack of knowledge about blades the average person on the street has. One of the best knives- had a forged blade from a master. Customers hangs it on the wall. To this day 15 years later he takes it off the wall with a cloth and holds it like a baby to show it to you. Breaks my heart. What a waste. Who among us will ever kill a bear with a knife or skin a moose with one? I am more sad they you guys. It’s my lifestyle, and I’m a freak. What happened to the backbone of our country? I chuckle. I conquered the wilderness at 18 years old with a $3 hickory knife! Ha! It does not bother me if the word is “You want a good design artistic work out of this world- with a story-see Miles. You want the best steel- better not see Miles.” I’m into reality. Welp! Bet I’ve used up my space here guys! Miles

 

[beaterAR]

you are alright!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Excellent comments and explanation of your art and customers. I admire your direct honesty.

 

[DanGraves]

Miles, you are most welcome here and I understand you are an artist. Have seen your work and it certianly has an appeal to it. I will suggest that there are folks on here who are very willing to help you get the most out of your steel. One very well known mastersmith maker is Ed Fowler who uses a torch exclusivly for heat treating his blades and they are VERY highly sought. Not for looks but for the edge they hold and how good they perform. Always more than one way to skin a cat. As I have said, "Welcome to the forum".

 

[Tx Bass Tech]

I just went to Miles of Alaska's website. Miles looks like the kind of guy that would be great to hang around with for a day and just see what he is up to. If I ever make it to his part of Alaska I want to go and have a cup of coffee or two with him. I've only made 1 knife from scratch and the most exciting thing I've done with it is cut some food I bought at the store and open my mail with it. This guy has really survived in the wild with his knives.
If I was a real bladesmith, I would send Miles a finished blade and let him do the handle. That would be a fun collaboration!

 

[milesofalaska]

A short story. I go moose hunting with 3 rich respected world known hunters. With money. We have an Indian guide, a guy I know a little. The Native and I had a conversation about guns and ballistics. I was 25 years old. Trying to help my friend out, I show him the charts and bullet drops and energy loads in my reloading book. Concerned because he carries a lever action 30/30. Horrible horrible ballistics compared to say the 375 H and H. He says nothing- but smiles and nods and does not have a clue what I’m talking about. I give up with a sigh. We take off into the wild blue yonder in my river boat- me the Indian and 3 hunters. The guys talk non stop about their guns and who has the most accurate and the best one. Who spent the most. Whose scope is better. On and on. A moose asleep on the river bank jumps up just to the side not 50 ft away. Huge bull. I mean over 1,500 pounds. A frigging rack you could set a hammock between. Everyone dives for their weapon of choice. Only one of us had our rifle ready. The old Indian calmly picked up his rusty outdated 30/30 out of the muddy bottom of the boat and drops the bull with one calm easy shot. None of the rest of us even had our rifle free of the cases we had them in to protect them. The Indian did not brag, did not comment and only smiled and shared the meat.
Since then I have killed more game including 4 moose and many bears with my 357 pistol then my rifle. My first bear I killed with a 22. My most powerful rifle to this day is a 270 savage. Likewise I once skinned a moose with a swiss army knife. It was all I had on me at the time – out dog mushing on the trapline and a moose charged us. I can honestly say my knives will…. Skin a moose- open a paint can without snapping, impress your friends by cutting a piece of paper without tearing it, cut a ¼ inch rope with one swipe if you are ever like me, out with your sled dogs and there is a dog fight and you need a knife in a hurry. It will slice and dice vegetables all day long. The steel will not break if you drop it, Sharpen your hot dog stick, open boxes, (and what else do you expect to be doing with it?) and I carry my own knives- please go to my web site and review my lifestyle and all the things I do with my knives if in doubt. If anyone has a question or wonders when buying. Ask. I will honestly tell anyone what I think my knife can not do or probably can, and if I say it can and it fails? lifetime warranty get your money back. Maybe even a new knife.
Thanks for all the input guys I leanred a few things. I appreciate it. If you learned something too. great!

 

[sunshadow]

As someone who uses a kiln (or a forge if the kiln is not available) for heat treating, I would reccommend using the kiln with a good temperature control setup, as to the long time it takes a kiln to get up to temperature, my first bit of advice is to let the kiln come up to temperature and stabilize, throw a chunk of charcoal in to consume the excess oxygen, then put your blade in edge up in a stainless steel wire rack, let it soak 20 minutes, then quench. I would agree that you are not getting anywhere near the potential of your steel with a torch, it's a question of "good enough" compared to "the best you can achieve"

-Page

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Hi Miles,

I actually just stumbled across your website. I love to drool over fantasizing about obtaining and working fossil walrus ivory, so I search the web every now and then and found your site. I'll take a stab at some of your questions. Hope I don't butcher your post up tooooo much with my cutting and paraphrasing, etc.

All the best, Phil

Is it common to heat treat with a torch as was done in the past? Or is this considered inferior or a No – no from a professional standpoint.

Torch heat treating is probably not very common. As Keven mentioned solid fuel forges are probably the most traditional heat treat source. As someone else mentioned though, Ed Fowler has made a lifetime career out of perfecting and advocating using an OA torch.

I want to know if there is a huge difference [in knife quality between my simple torch heat and oil quench method and more complex heating equipment methods] and I am just not seeing it [in my tests]?

Most people would probably answer yes there is difference, or at least a more predictable and reliably reproducible quality blade. That being said, it seems that often it takes extraordinarily expensive and complex laboratory equipment and methods to reveal or perceived the superior qualities. Hardness testers, microscopic photography and spectroscopic analysis come to mind. You are not the only one to say, geesh if it takes all that to perceive a difference, why bother? I would again venture, many folks would say for the confidence of predictable and reliably reproducible results...that and getting the most out of the blade steel, thus the best blade they can make.

...is it worth 3 times the time- and if it will be worth 3 times the price?

To many folks yes, and worth even more. To others no, and worth even less. Most everyone agrees though, that transparency and honesty in ones methods, no matter what they are, is paramount to being a bladesmith/knifemaker of integrity and worthy of respect and business.

My big question I suppose is if any of you who know more than I do can tell me if there is something specific to keep an eye out for or if there is a big risk of blade failure?

I suppose the biggest risk folks have mentioned, is the risk of having one's methods being misrepresented to (possibly simply via unconscious omision of facts) or misperceived or misunderstood by customers. As for the actually quality of the blade, many makers believe (with firm conviction) they could never reliably produce a trustworthy heat treated blade with a torch. I suppose it would therefore take a good deal of suspension of believe to believe other makers could/can.

I have never had a customer come back to me and tell me they were disappointed. Had many tell me how they skinned out a moose and how great the knife was. So this leaves me curious why … well why all this is such a huge big deal...forges and kilns and such?

Yup, the heat treating issue/question/conflict doesn't seem relevant to you, does it? I noticed you somewhat describe your work in other posts. It seems like your knives are to a good degree art knives. I wonder if that explains some of it?

Are my customers not serious knife people?

Well, you did mention in another post a person who hangs one of your knives on a wall only taking it down from time to time to show to others. On the other hand you refer to folks skinning with your knives too. Got me stumped.

If my knives blades were put to a test would they be off the scale terrible?

What test(s)? Those of the steel composition and qualities? That of steel hardness? That of iron, carbon, carbide and alloy constituents crystalline structure and grain size? That of ductility, flexibility, malleability, tensile strength? That of erosion and corrosion resistance? I believe all these qualities could be assigned objective and comparative values via certified lab testing.

Assessing your knives' design and construction qualities like edge geometry, suitability for usage intention, handle material selection, construction techniques and craftsmanship is, of course, another matter, although of utmost import. Seems like you and your customers are in agreement there. :thumbup:

Can I send a blade someplace and have it analyzed and learn something from the results?

It is up probably up for discussion as to what you can gained from certified lab test results. Have you done much in the way of grain size assessment in you HT steel? If not that might not be too difficult to do in you shop.

Getting some hardness testing done might be revealing. There are many places that do that. What if you tested several of your blades that you you made out the same steel and HT in the same way? If each blade edge was tested in a few spots how close to the same hardness do you think all the spots on all the blades might be? Would that even be important to you and your customers?

All in the name of we can always learn something and improve. I even have a kiln! Use it for burn out for lost wax casting. I tried to use it to heat treat blades and was not happy with how long the steel takes to get to temperature and maybe loss of carbon and scaling, and temperature drop as I get it over to the quench bath.

I have used a jeweler's burnout oven for heat treating. I move my oil right below so that's no more of an issue than with any other heating technique. I also use a anti-scale coating that eliminates that problem. You're right though it does take a long time to come up to heat.

With the torch I am right over the bath, get it to temp, put er in the quench, slam bam thank you mam done deal. Entire process 2 minutes (1/8th steel). Is that sacrilege? Some input please.

Just the slam bam thank you mam part!