Torch hardening v/s forge-kiln

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hey guys
Wow and gee! What a lot of discussion going on here. Great! Ed! I appreciate your time here explaining how you do it. I’m guessing Ed and Sean and some others understand somewhat where I am coming from. Mostly it is me and my customers I need to please. I got someone telling me how to write now? I write like I talk? And that’s a problem? I take that as a compliment. Thanks.

Hit the enter key- how’s that? (smile) OK I begin with not loosing site of why any of us are here taking and making knives at all. Why do we exist? What is the bottom line of what we are doing? Supplying knives to do various jobs – please our customers- make some money at it. Do something rewarding that we love and feel good about. Have I missed something important here?

So I say this… my heroes for most of my life have been mountain men. How they lived what they did what they had to work with. We- mankind- has made huge improvements since then! Well.. maybe that’s an opinion. True, I would not mind going back to those days- and bring along a modern weapon, a fiber filled sleep bag and a modern blade. But- it is like finding a guy driving a model T ford, and we want to make fun of him and call him a dork as we show him what a new 4 wheel drive will do. On a chart on a graph when you punch in the numbers that model T is crap. But non the less we got people who want them and will pay dear to have one. They still get a person from point A to point B in style- just a different sort of style. Depending where and how you live.
Backtrack subject change. I tend to attempt the impossible. Realize it is impossible later, backtrack and see how far back I need to go to get up to speed. I was in the news for the first time for my artwork when I was 5 years old. I was 14 and told my art teacher I was going to make a life-size sculpture and cast it in bronze – when asked what I wanted to do this year. That art teacher told me he had nothing to teach me. He gave me my own room and told me to do whatever I want. I made the life-sized sculpture and got the mold made by the end of the year, but was stumped on the casting it in bronze part. But I never gave up. I had no help or advice.

I was 22 years old on the Yukon river – temperature was 50 below. No food – out for 5 days on snowshoes. The last day I only made it 100 yards, by crawling. I still remember turning around now and then to see my trail, and most important was that it was straight. I did not mind the thought of dying. It’s just that, if found- I wanted everyone to know I never gave up and wandered around aimlessly, or panicked.” I died going in the right direction” that’s all I wanted. Write it on my tombstone. Well now? I want on my tombstone “Here! Watch this!”

Sometimes the rules- well just go out the window for some people or in some situations. Got a guy here who asks Ed why he bothers, and what a poor guy I am. Hmm. Well. I smile. Ok well let this fellow and I hook up dog teams side by side at 60 below zero and take off on the trapline. you bring the gear you swear by and I bring the gear I swear by. I pack my trusty blade and you pack yours. And in a week, let us have another conversation.

I’m a guy who just does not trust tests and charts and numbers and graphs and slide shows and videos promoting products and how it’s the best thing since slice bread. Anyone interested can read my first book. It is hilarious how all the items I bought to go into the wilds with failed me. I’m reading advertisements on clothes- on the wood stove- on the lantern saying how great it is and here are the numbers compared to the competition. What kept me alive? Mostly all the stuff a grandpa would suggest.
Sort of Like Ed saying about yes you can anneal the steal…. But sometimes something weird simply happens. Who knows why. It air hardens. Weird things get seen under the northern lights up here. What happens to a blade at 60 below for example? I had someone else’s blade once and tapped on my chain saw bar to get the ice free so the chain would turn. The blade snapped like ice. That does not happen with my blades.
Think of being a cook and following a recipe. Would a great chef make a meal –even by his own directions, and never taste it before serving it? If you are good at what you do- every single time you make it, it will be slightly different. Yes, up to some point you need to know how to cook first! What temperature to bake the cake at, what baking soda is and all that. Till you go to another country, another way of life, and suddenly you are in –Oh- in a village in Alaska being served caribou and marsh marigold leaves with cattail root. Recipe? Oven? Measurements? And you find yourself eating one of the best meals in your life. Looking around you at healthy people who are happy. The caribou killed with a bow- butchered with a piece of flint. Some of us have never experienced that. All is not as it seems. I smile with humor at those who might view me as an idiot and a sucker, who needs to be felt sorry for. It is me doing the feeling sorry for. Who among us has dug up there own mammoth tusk for there knife handle- using one of their own knives as a digging tool? (for example) Or cut over 200 miles of trapline trial with a machete in their life. Who among those who has not, has the right to say I do not understand steel.

There are many ways to skin a cat, many roads lead to Rome. My opinion is there is not a knife maker among us I would dare to insult. We have no idiots among us. We did not arrive here paying our dues and using the term ‘knife maker ’ owning a computer to check the forum, having a phone being alive plying our trade that any of us would be fools or ignorant. There is not a blade I have seen here I would not take with me in the wilds and know I could survive with it. There is no blade here that the maker is not proud of and deserving of “Hey good job!” And let he who cast the first stone be without sin. Given the right test- we will all be found wanting. So hey- we can lighten up. It needs to be fun. If we are not having a good time what is life about? If we do not love what we do – and want to share that love of our trade, why are we here chatting? I hope “my blade is bigger and better then your blade” is said with a smile

Now oddly God has a sense of humor. God gave me artistic ability and that is not my lifestyle! So I can make ‘fancy’ knives few customers want to take out in the field! I sigh. It’s embarrassing. God has His reasons I assume. I look at the bright side. I understand now! I am doing a blend. I am bringing two worlds together who do not know each other as well as they should! The suit and tie guys and the cover all’s guys. Sort of like as well—the people with the money to buy a nice knife do not need one, and those who need one cannot afford one.

I am not looking for consistency guys. Or not in the sense some mean. Its not even my goal . I like that every single knife is one of a kind never to be repeated you got the only one. I create a blade, then test it and figure out what it is good for, and then choose a handle that suits that- and advertize that knife for what I tested it for. Or—I know ‘somewhat’ what to expect. But I may want a soft tip hard edge or the other way around. A blade with flex or no this applicaion does not weant flex. Sort of like Ed saying it is amazing how inconsistent batches of steel are! In short so many factors to control or that are not in our control we never know for absolute certainly about a blade till we test it. We cannot 100% guarantee a blade just because we followed all the rules.

I am not knocking ‘following the rules’ it suits some people and I suggest those who find that need should! Maybe it is a fault that I have ‘a thing’ about rules – regulations, proper procedures- how it’s done- and such. I try to turn that fault into an asset! The argument can go on forever it seems, how we perceive the world around us. There are those for like laws regulations everything in it’s place and predictable. In this world there are sheep. Followers. Those who bleat when something is out of place and ask the shepherd to make it all go away. And in this world will be shepherds and wolves. There is room for all. All are necessary . If there were no sheep, where would fleece come from?

I am not the best steel worker and never claimed to be. I do claim my blades are better than factory production blades. Period. Even my worse blade I let out of the shop – say a torch treated D2- will outperform factory knives sold in the store as hunters and survival knives the average Joe Hunter buys and swears by. I am thus not at ground zero guys.

While some are busy bending a blade in a vice and writing down the results on a piece of paper—I’m out there in the field slamming my blade in the ice chipping out a mammoth tusk. Nope. Never broke one- well since I was about 18. And that one that broke on the saw at 60 below. Reason? My opinion- because I know steel, and know what it can do and not do and do not push a knife beyond it’s limits. I know the limit of every knife I use. I may chip the edge, take a bit of the tip off – nothing that cant be easily fixed. Anyhow gotta run. Customers waiting.

So Ed first think is I need to get some steel for an initial test 1075 1085 52100E 5160. Between these 4 I bet I find one that likes me and wants to be my friend. Ok will try some real quench oil. Also get the torch tip suggested. It’s a lot to digest Ed. I’m sure there is much more to learn. I’d like to just pay with what I have learned so far and run some tests to some comparing. I’m just guessing Ed, but I bet you are someone to who walking the walk, not just talking the talk means something. Anyone can nod and smile and dish out thanks and compliments. It may or may not mean squat. The best thanks would be handing you a blade and not saying much beyond “Take a look” or some pictures and a story back from the hunt . later! Miles
 
Me2: Rex has, he is the man of science on our team. Currently he is working 12 or more hours a day 7 days a week in the lab and we do not get to talk much, next time I talk to him I will ask. I do not mean to be evasive but Rex has the education and over 20 years of experience, there is no way I could have his understanding of the science and be able to explain it to some one else with clarity. All I do is test the functional aspects as I can explain them from their functional qualities. He plans to be at the ranch next summer and we plan on making another DVD explaining what we have learned since the last one.

One aspect I will try to communicate is that due to the high directional rate of reduction by frogging from large round stock is that the grain runs parallel to the blade and is highly refined on that plain. This would explain the strength and toughness of the annealed and unhardened tang as well as the potential attributes of the entire blade and the hardened areas.

What we do not know and want to investigate is how much is enough. In other words can we achieve similar results from a 2 inch round bar as we have from a 6" round bar? From the testing we do in our shop smaller diameter round bars can result in blades that perform very well. From your posts I believe you understand what I mean to say.

Blades from larger round bars do have a large degree of safety factors built in, the cost benefit relationship needs to be evaluated and documented. I do have a 3" and a 1" round bar from the same pour that await our attention.
 
Last edited:
Miles: You are absolutely correct about the environment needing to be considered. I love your comment about the blade breaking at -60f. Not many makers think to consider testing in cold weather, it needs to be done for knives expected to work in the colder areas.

Your writing is much more understandable when you break it up. As you can tell from the suggestion, we want understand what you write and it is easy to lose a thought in a page long discussion without any breaks. I have an old diary that was written in one paragraph of over 100 pages. To gain greater understanding I re-typed it and picked up many thoughts that had escaped me.

Next time you come down south, try to plan a trip to the Willow Bow Ranch, I will pick you up at the airport, have a place for you to stay and some extra food. We can play in our shop.
 
Hi Ed

thanks for the clarification.. at first i thought why ? with both options on the table i could only come up with the kiln ...

but now you mention 52100 and i remember way back when i last used that steel.. it was a nightmare to drill a stick tang..... it would hold an edge nicely but i didn't get along working with that steel..

it makes sense that you'd want the tang dead soft... even reheating it above non-mag will make it difficult to drill

on another note... i've restored enough middle eastern swords to know that they also had dead soft tangs... they'd weld a wrought iron tang to a steel blade...... why ? why ..... i could only think, that the last thing they'd want to happen to a blade is have a blade/tang failure... .... you can fight with a bent blade..... or chipped... it would be a bad scenario to fight with just a handle... hah


by the way.... i have plenty of first hand experience with stainless knives failing up north here.... becareful.. it seems the higher the alloy, the chances go up it will act poorly in low temps

popular choice up here is the sawmill blades with the Nickel in it.. good in the cold


Greg
 
Miles here—I got a phone call from Richard J . We talked over an hour. About the use of a torch and opinions on this and that. He swears by it looks like 1075- but maybe a very specific source (John Deer plow blades) He told me the same stuff can come from Mexico that is called the same and is not even close (confirmed also by Ed, that we do not always get served what we ordered!) . I have offered to buy a little steel off him to play with. But fear if I do not have his exact source it is all in vain.

A source for all these steels mentioned would be the best help right now. Talk is cheap. I will know in about 4 hours, enough to know if I want to continue my conversations or smile and do what I’m going to do, be polite and nod at everyone, or change. Let me try this and that and hammer a piece through a board with a hammer. Put it in a vice and reef on it- slam it in a vice and hear it vibrate or break, put an edge on it and go ballistic- see how many inches of raw half inch moose hide with fur on it will cut. Cut the head off a nail with it by beating on it with a hammer. Look at all the stages up close. Take it through it’s paces before calling it my friend.
And when I’m done- come back and pick this conversation up where we left off. Probably more questions or share interesting results. Who can supply me with some sample 1075 1085 5100E and 5160. I do not forge, I grind, so it needs to be sheet not billet or round stock. I like 1.5 wide or wider at least 6 inches long, and 1/16th to 1/8th thick. Tell me anything I need to know about- it hot rolled cold rolled annealed etc. I have about $30 to spend including shipping. You got that stuff Ed? Anyone else might? If not, a good source to buy please. Apparently I need to expand my horizons beyond Jantz.


And… I am temporarily available to chat and learn and share. This is my slowest time of year right after the Xmas rush, darkest days coldest time. Taking a break before gearing up for the big Tucson fossil show. I’ll be working hard for a month, expect to make half a years wages in 3 weeks. Right now I have enough inventory to sell and on a break. This is not how I live- chatting on the computer. I’d rather be too busy—living the good life – creating or selling.

Or—it reminds me when I first arrived in Alaska. I did not know enough even to ask the right questions about the wilds. I had watched Walt Disney and assumed I was qualified. The bush pilot stared at me and did not even want to fly me out. He did not want to be arrested for negligence or murder. He was so sure I was going to die. I found out years later he told his wife “We’ll never see him again” People offered me advice! “Let’s be trapline partners good buddy!” people in bars. One guy sells me a kayak for $800 and I thanked him for being so kind. Kayak was worth under $200 and I had no use for a kayak. But I trusted him. The real trappers were not available. They were out there in the wilds doing it, not hanging out in town talking about it. The guys who knew anything did not have time for the likes of me. Which is fine. No complaints. I can not think of one person who said “Go for it!” Everyone told me I would die. I’m glad I was not a good listener. It was 2 years before I ever met a real trapper. I wouldn’t have known good advice from bad, or who was qualified to give it. As some of you might know, there is a lot of advice out there in the world. We all got an opinion, and you know what is said about everyone’s opinion, right? (including our own!)

Now I’m headed for 60. Local respectful young Indians call me grandpa. Out of 70,000 people in Fairbanks Alaska, I bet 20,000 of them consider me their friend. I sigh. I doubt I know 100 of them. I sometimes volunteer at the school. We have a student living center for Indian kids from the remote villages. We have no reservations in Alaska. A certain sadness that a white man is teaching Indian kids how to survive in the wilds and how to be Indians.. but I press on.

One time I brought a moose to the school on the back of my 4 wheeler. Well I had gutted it already but that’s about all. Could hardly see the 4 wheeler, me sitting on top of this bloody moose arriving in the parking lot. An announcement is made and the Indians pile out to the lot for their lesson of the day. I asked, and nope- not one had ever seen a moose get butchered. My first words – I holler-- “Step forward and be amazed!” I showed them how to get the head off. Lot of the girls were mighty squeamish! Blood all over an all that. I had every one of them try to pick up the head. No one could. It took a 5 gallon bucket just to hold the heart.
Before long I let each kid try the knife and showed em how to hold it and where the bones were and how to get it apart and all that. Pretty soon even the girls wanted to try it! Ya. The day Wild Miles brought a dead moose to show and tell. We served it up for lunch in the cafeteria. Even brought butcher paper- showed em how to wrap and label it. “A year from now you want to know what year you got this hunk of meat, not mix it up with the one you got 10 years ago! And you might not want to thaw out liver or tongue when you wanted tenderloin! We had some pretty lively discussion on hunting and blades and all that fun stuff. Poor kids- stuck in that prison all day long. Oh well.

Ya some new teacher frowned and wanted to know if I had a permit. If I had signed in or not. If I was qualified bla bla and more bla. I pointed down the street to my house. The one with the pirate flag waving. My permit to do everything. Lucky I live in a small place. The principal knows me well and took the new teacher aside. “That’s Wild Miles- he’s ok”


Ya the story is related to the topic at hand. How we all got started, what we know now. Who we listen to and why and all that. So again, anyone got some steel as requested to sell me?

Oh! I forgot! Ed mentioned something. Sometimes I do stuff and cannot explain ‘why’ as I tend to trust my instincts a lot. How the single most important thing is not to have the blade snap off at the handle! So true! Many other things can be compromised and we will survive in an emergency pushing a blade to it’s limits. Much is just annoying. We chip the edge, we snap a tip off. We have to fix it on the grinder etc. So my gut feeling is the perfect blade I envision will come from the forge or the torch. ‘Because’ each part of the blade has a function and purpose and each need is not the same and thus each part needs different requirements including different hardness! It does not make sense the whole blade needs to be like the edge! And yes we can draw the temper to some extent back out after a total harden. At least in theory. But as Ed points out, how do we be absolutely 100% know for sure? We can test every blade? Or- we never harden the parts we do not want hard! I also wonder how much control we really have and how far back we can draw it and how much stress we mess with if we do more to the steel then we have to? Thus it is another attraction to me more than just “because I want to” (Ya of coarse- first I want to, then I justify it- good thinking). Miles


Another PS- looks like others are busy as I write. Ys cold is a factor and yes I agree I have had problems with complicated steel in the cold. I am testing my D2 now I already know it lacks flex ability it will break. But I also want to know how long it will stay sharp if I am careful with it. It is outperforming some of my other blades on this one test – ability to keep an edge. Sure Ed if I come down your way. If you want to visit in Alaska let me know. Maybe go look for a mammoth tusk or moose hunt. Discuss why that 375 cut your left eye – not the eye you had at the scope. (See Ed's forum on his page)
 
Hey Miles,

I've got some 1084 1.5"x.25" I'd be pleased to share with you. I sent you an email a few days ago, but haven't heard from you. Did you get it?

Thanks, Phil
 
ED- No one has mentioned L6 steel. For years I cut up old crosscut saw blades from the 1800’s for my knives. I was too scared or lacked knowledge to take the temper out and re harden again. So I ground them out cold. It worked ‘ok’ I think my blades today are better, and working hard steel is just so much more wear and tear on equipment and being careful about getting hot etc. In your opinion is it worth revisiting this steel and anneal to work it, and try to torch harden it? Will annealing mess it up? I do know there was a time in knife making history these old saw blades were the rage. A local told me the old crosscut was so good because it was forged- folded hammered many times. Thus not just L6 as we might buy it in a billet form, but how it was handled that made it so darn good. Is this outdated steel? If so- why? Much of what I have ahs deep rust pits very hard to sand past so very time consuming as a way to make money.
 
Hi Miles and everyone I have known Miles for twenty years at least, he has two things going for him.

First, he has is own style, it suits him very well, it works for him. I think the world needs knife makers like him, and some people take to his knives.

I have deleted part of my post because I am not Miles' dad.
 
Last edited:
L-6 is a great steel, FRom what I understand most saw blades are L-6, but not all. I love L-6.

We do sell high quality 52100 E and will email you.

I figured out how the 375 H & H bit me, got him a new scope with more than 1 3/4" eye relief and shot about 50 rounds through it a few days later. Not much torque, but when your cheek is on the wrist if a stock you don't have much control. Super Glue and it healed real nicely.
 
Phil Dwyer said:
Hey Miles,

I've got some 1084 1.5"x.25" I'd be pleased to share with you. I sent you an email a few days ago, but haven't heard from you. Did you get it?

Thanks, Phil
Click to expand...

Hi Phil! Yes got your emails- thought I replied by email. Sorry if I forgot. Sometimes feel like Richard J – sounds like he’s been here a spell from ‘way back’ now getting older tells me he looses is train of thought and not to get excited if he forgets who am. He asked my name again twice. I smile I know how that is.

I tend to focus intently at what is at hand or what I want to focus on and block all else out till I figure out or compete that one task. Very much a train on a track. It will b e a while before I remember who everyone here is I am chatting with. I mean no disrespect or offense.

So you are in Hawaii and interested in some walrus ivory for handles and have some steel to trade 1085? I’ll communicate by email, go over what kind of ivory and such.

Others have suggested they’d like to come visit or go hunting. I’m usually pretty open to that as long as I’m not busy … well you know how it can be. Got a business to run but be fun to have a visitor and chat about steel and hunting stories and such. I have 4 remote homesteads with cabins – well anyone can chat about that with me by email. Later. Miles
 
Mark Knapp said:
Hi Miles and everyone I have known Miles for twenty years at least, he has two things going for him.

What Miles may not know is that people around here on the forum are pretty quick to call BS if they smell any, not that I am accusing him:rolleyes:;) He will learn it pretty quickly.

Welp… long pause. Smile. Yes I am known as a good story teller. Partly it’s salesmanship partly some feel it’s BS. May as well be up front about it. My view is this. If a guy tells me a fish story about this 4 ft fish he caught? If he really caught a fish of some kind, and he believes and is not lying that the fish was ‘huge’ the biggest he ever got and he is excited and gets carried away in the heat of the moment and the fish was only 3 ft according to a tape measure---. I understand. That’s not BS, that’s just a good honest story from that guys perspective. If he knows the fish was not 4 ft and he makes it up totally and wants me to believe it and he lies, not believing it himself that’s BS. If he never even went fishing and is just trying to be one of the guys and totally making it up and does not know a fish from a mouse I’m going to walk away.

Ok I see myself I think I said once- as ‘the wizard of OZ’ “Do not pay attention to that man behind the curtain! I am OZ- the great and powerful!” Somewhere at the end of the yellow brick road. Some call me a humbug! I nod in agreement and smile! I send people on all these journeys and it was all for nothing! Looking for courage! Looking for a heart! Looking for a brain! Looking for home! I nod in agreement without shame or guilt.

Oz.. was from nowhere ville. Some ho dunk hole someplace off the map no one ever heard of some boring place where nothing is going on. He decides to build himself a hot air balloon and find – someplace exciting! Ya right! Ha! Dream on! People watch and talk as he tinkers in his shop with no knowledge no money and puts together this duck tape and bailing wire and bed sheets contraption to go to mars on. A lunatic. On launch day the village gathers and hears his grand speech and with some amount of fan fair lights the propane and lifts off! It’s amazing he even got off the ground at all! People clap at first. Some begin to believe in him even. He disappears out of sight- never to be heard of again. He crashes landed in the woods someplace far away.

He is not injured but now what? He does not give up his dream or get discouraged. He does not crawl back to the village with his tail between his legs. He looks around and makes of the world around him what he can. He builds his own various contraptions. He deals with munchkins he finds and stuff not of the world he started from! He builds up sort of an empire- a world of his own making. He names if OZ! It is filled with wonders. He gets visitors now and then. He sounds like some sort of holy man who can perform miracles! It’s expected! He sighs and wonders if it is best to send them away in disgust? Or get rid of them- he’s busy? Send them off on some wild goose chase? Whatever it is he does, he cares and wishes there was something he could do. But who is he? A guy who failed to accomplish what he set out to do. Yet- along the way the very ones he sent off on a quest – through him- discover something about themselves. Tell him how he had the vision! Who else dared to try? And look at all this cool stuff he built? Doors that open and make smoke, voices from behind curtains, stories he has, of things he has seen. In his way a rare breed.

A bit odd and eccentric! Ok! But he is not just some idiot on an acid trip. He did build a hot air balloon! Just not as cool as the rest of the world might envision. He did go someplace exciting! Just not quite as far as he wished and others hoped for. He had no real answers, for the real answers are in each of us. In the end – what is truth and what is real and to who?
Thus I may not know. I suspect myself I’m tweaked. I say it with my head up and a proud smile. Because I’m lucky just to be alive. If it had a price- so what? Lesser people would be dead now and are.

Some ‘facts’ can be checked out! I have a bibliography in my book. I have been in the New York Times in Geo over in Europe written 5 articles for Alaska magazine. Have been interviewed by top reporters in the world (well one- once) Jean Pasquire had won the world press award the year he came to photograph me. All the way for New York to Alaska to spend a week with me in the wilds. Why?

When it comes to ‘blades’ and ‘knives’ it needs to be understood I do a great many things besides build knives. I sell all kinds of art. I’m even bigger in the sale of raw material then at selling the art. I have 2 books out working on a 3rd. I spend time living subsistence meaning hunting fishing getting firewood growing a garden gathering wild plants etc. I built my own web site and run it, something like 1,000 pictures and 46 pages. I care about knife making but I care about carving opals, and rock cutting , and care about fossil restoration . I’m 60 slowing down. I do not have all the time for all this ‘go see so and so for help’ stuff. I’m a ‘need a helping hand- look at the other end of your arm’ kind of guy.

A loner personality. I chat with Mel at the local café on Saturdays of late. But- I do not drive. I have had a drivers license maybe 2 years. I do not feel comfortable driving. In my old lifestyle in the wilds so what? Only saw people 2-3 times a year anyhow. I did not even have a phone or credit card or even ID for over 25 years. I lack certain social skills and feel uncomfortable in many situations. Being somewhat of a humbug I tend to steer clear of situations that will bring that subject up. Some situations are ok – but all this ‘plenty of people willing to help and teach’ has a lot to do with past experiences that got me off in the wilds alone to begin with. Those who read my book might see. The civilized world is not a very safe place for people who are odd. Just look at the news.

Sooo- I spent about 25 years in the wilds most of that time on a houseboat all over the interior of Alaska. I saw 8 month stretches where I never saw another human. Much of what I experienced is not believable. That’s ok. The court jester, the village idiot will outlive many kings. It’s safe. I know what I have done and not done and feel no need to prove it to anyone. It is amazing what I have accomplished alone, but also amazing how little I know as a result of not being around people much.

So I suppose yes, there are puzzling aspects to my words concerning the world of knives. How can this be and that be? How much room is there to explain and to what extent does selling knives and discussing how to harden steel have to do with our personal lives? Sure I suppose it’s all about credibility and odd stories bring up questions! I understand. Miles
Click to expand...
 
Hey Miles

don't forget Rob... he's got some supplies on his site... the steels you asked for
http://www.knifemaker.ca/

if you think torched D2 is good... then try doin it in a kiln... much better...
- had some knifemakers over in the summer for a little cuttin competition.. and almost all of them had that CPM D2... it was good... didn't chip out... i have to give it respect since it ran with my L6 blades...

if we shot a moose outa season down here... the CO's woulda skinned us alive... but i guess its different if you live off the land..

some of my relatives are trappers... not the friendliest bunch


Greg
 
Hello Greg
I put the steels in google and found only pipe and big steel companies and some forums talking about them. I looked up Rob as suggested and see this is Canada. Have not investigated further but think shipping across borders is really high. I know when I ship to Canada minimum $20 shipping, something heavy like steel could pay $40 shipping just for a couple of pounds.

I tried the kiln with D2 and was not happy. I followed the temp time instructions but did not have foil and ended up with a lot of scale. But also found the entire blade to be too brittle. With the torch work, the edge is harder then I got with the kiln, and the back is very soft so I now have a lot of flex in the blade- but still have a hard long staying edge. I may re visit the kiln due to so many suggestions and be more careful and use the foil. Or I may give up on D2 and play around with simpler steels. Or may anneal and re harden my L6 crosscut saw steel. I like it well enough but now out of the good stuff and have pitted rusty stuff to hard to work with. The old 100 year old saws harder to get now. Unsure if the new stuff is better.

I do not recall saying anything about a moose out of season. (?) Moose season runs to the 26th of September. School is in session. No the school would not allow teaching how to take care of a poached moose. I see a huge difference between being moral and being legal. If we were all moral we might not need so many laws. Ya I fly the pirate flag more as a statement. A movie company wanted to hire me as a guide and did a background check on me, told me I had the cleanest record of anyone they ever did a check on. I suppose it helps that I do not drive, most records I assume have to do with driving tickets.

Hmm I think I define the world different then mainstream. I see a pirate flag or say pirate flag I think “Indiana Jones! Crocodile Dundee, Clint Eastwood! I’m with you!” Do others cringe and think “unfriendly! Poacher! Bad!” Yes the world spins the other direction for me then for others I sometimes think. Interesting.

Trappers? Not friendly? Well. My guess is they’d say the same about the rest of the world. My guess is they define friendship different then you do. The bush code we call it. Like you can use their cabin in an emergency, nice if you replaced the firewood you burned. If they catch you robbing the place they will not call 911, they’d kill you. Or what you give the trapper he gives back 10 fold. Be nice and he’ll give you the shirt off his back.

But ya, sometimes trappers get weird, been alone a lot, lived a hard life, sometimes folks turn to trapping because they cant get along with others, so need a job that lets them be alone and out of trouble. It is said for example- or advice I got when I arrive in Alaska, if you want to be a trapper do not take on a partner. The local fur dealer I used to sell to shot his partner in the knee with a 22 in an argument over who was going to cut firewood. No one was shocked. No one was arrested. Whatever problem there was got resolved and it did not cost the tax payers a dime.

I cant reply or comment well- it takes a book . I mean geez- I started this thread asking a simple question- does anyone torch harden steel? And look where we are? Doing confession. How’d I get here? (smile)
 
I agree with you. I also would like to hang with this guy. I have also been to his site and bought some scale material. Fast, Friendly service too. Not relevant to the main question, but just wanted to chime in. Great resource up north.

Todd
 
Hi Miles

no no... i wasn't callin you a poacher.. by jeez, those would be fightin words around here.. .. .. what i meant is if your subsistence living off the land, then i'm sure the game laws are void... or at least thats what i heard over here in Canada...... sorry if i wasn't clear... this internet can be hard to cleanly put across something... i've only got friendly intent


Kiln... with D2 and the hold times you need to heat treat...the decarburization of the outer skin maybe alot... need the foil forsure and the plate quench... aswell and some undercooling to trip off some of that RA ... that could make it brittle later on

the Cpm D2 is made from powder steel... i think you'll like it much better..suppose to be tougher

i'm startin to see your side of the story... torchin just the edge would leave the spine and tang soft... and probably deal with the brittleness in the cold weather we get up here in the north .. ( in the way that the knife won't crack in half as it has a soft back bone )

so ... what might be the best heat treat down in warm south is not necessarily the best way up north in the cold..;)

guess why i say the the kiln is better, is because when you do D2 by the text book, you'll get a max product... good enough that they us it for industrial planer and shears.... and that see's major millage in terms of cutting...

i've had problems with stainless in the past... 440c is a dirty word around here for me:thumbdn: so i'm very skeptical about the high alloy steels

good luck on the steels... and i don't mind reading the long posts..


Greg

ps.. yep, most likely they didn't want me heading out to their trapline and do some huntin... as good huntin spots are hard to find around here...
- not that i'd do that... .. somehow i feel it would be real bad, like somekind of claim jumper... ...
- i'm just a hunter anyhow... no interest in the fur bearing animals ... cept the tasty ones..;)
 
Hello Greg – So I understand about the ‘poaching comment’ (smile) It is important to be clear from the standpoint of ‘ethics’ in general is an important subject when we sell our product. Something to consider with the trappers maybe of interest to others as well…. People who live remote are not understood well by those who do not live like them, specifically civilization and often the law. An example is if I kill a legal bear in the wilds I have 15 days to turn in the head to the government or I become a criminal. This law is fine for the city hunter sport hunter who intends to return home to the city. Someone like myself in the past in that wild lifestyle I lived out there-- it cost me $200 in boat gas to come to town. I did not always have the $200 to come in and sometimes I am busy- like fishing during a salmon run for the dogs- my only transportation. I did not drive- so how am I going to get a bloody bear head to the government office? In a cab? On a city bus? Full of maggots? So I might be inclined not to get the head in. This is only an example.
City dwellers visitors hunters who arrive may not understand, but may understand the laws. Some visitors get indignant and make reports. So there is fear from the trapper of problems based on what you see, and might report. One very good way to get along is to basically let them know you do no care what they are up to – it is not your business and you want to hunt and ask them if that is ok. Words like “Ya I can guess it is hard to live out here and get left alone. I sure admire how you live and may not even understand it as well as I wish, but sure want to support the right to live this way. I’d like to hunt around here if it is ok, and let me know if there is a trap set someplace or some area you’d prefer I stay away from. If I have any extra meat I’ll drop it by” Like that.

Also never ever go to a cabin in the wilds quietly and knock on the door. The wilderness persons sense of personal space is not the same as in town. You will freak out the dweller who may get mad. He feels about his property line- as you do about the space 5 ft from your kitchen table within the house. It is proper to hail the cabin from the property line. “Is anyone home ! Hello the house!” And wait till you are invited on the property. Sometimes people are not dressed. Or need to put something away, not always illegal but private, maybe the dirty underwear is in the chair. They are not used to visitors. It gives them time to adjust to the fact they have a guest, think if they have coffee, and in a position to offer it, stuff like that. Show yourself on the path and wave nicely so they can see you out the window. This I think is how all bush people anywhere in the world behave. They fear you, so understand that, and show them they have nothing to fear.

We so often think of ‘survival’ in terms of our blade! But survival can be how to greet those who inhabit the land you are trying to survive in! Bring trade goods! (smile) Beer! (ha- depends on who you greet). I like to bring something in the way of fresh food anyone would enjoy, hard to get in the woods, like a bag of apples. “Dang this is heavy, maybe I should not have brought it, can I leave them here? Maybe you can use them” Is worth a million $. Or batteries. We all run stuff off batteries and never have enough. Our radio, a clock, flashlight etc. It’s our only electricity. Suddenly you just might be able to hunt any place you want, and guess what, you might get showed where the critters hang out.

They have reason to be afraid of you! I see it a lot. Some bunny hugging tree kisser shows up on my property wanting to see my art work and trips over a pile of 10 wolf carcasses. If they take a picture and send it to the news media I will never hear the end of it. I have received ashes in the mail telling me this is what is going to happen to me if I keep killing wolves. It’s easier to be careful who I invite on my property. If it looks to me like you are lost and do not belong around here I’m even more scared. Sometimes the reaction to fear is anger and gruffness.

When I first got to Alaska in 73 I saw hungry times. I was living in a trailer while my houseboat was being built. Out back was a wild steam teaming with salmon. I figured I’d go snaffle me one of them fish. There were thousands. It’s dark so I go out back with a fish gig and I hear voices! I see flashlights up and down the creek! What the heck? I turn my light on to see the path and all the other lights go off and there is a hush. What the heck? It dawns on me it is not fishing season. It is not polite to get these salmon on a spawning grounds with a gig. (Or the gig has to have 3 prongs, be 4 inches long, and you have to be wearing red socks on a Tuesday). I realize what is going on, so I holler. “Not to worry , I’m here to eat fish like the rest of you!” All the lights came back on and “All right!” and “Lets get some dinner boys” and such went up and down the line. Splash splash and we had a great time and got to eat. It was starvation times for us all. It would not have been fun if some low life city slicker lost so and so called in the Gestapo. It’s hard to explain if you have never lived like this. It’s another planet another world another culture.

As related to the topic, it means what we do with our blade can get put to tests others may not think of, such as the cold as we mention. Being razor sharp is not the number one quality either, for example. First and foremost it cannot break under any conditions. No knife is the worse situation. It is ok to lose a tip or chip a chunk out. That’s only inconvenient. Most of us can eventfully get it to a grinder and reshaped and a new edge put on. Or even a file. We may not be able to replace the knife. It might be annoying to have to re sharpen often or work with the blade that has as chip in it. But snapping a blade is scary. So maybe you are correct – if I torch harden and only the edge and know the back is soft I will probably never snap the blade. Even if I lost a few points here and there and made some sacrifice on the full potential of the steel I can live with it.
 
Miles here wil try to end the thread. I got the answers I need and this thread has run its course. Thanks guys and anyone with more comment or further discussion can contact me. Thanks!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top