Torch hardening v/s forge-kiln

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Phil
I appreciate your time and in depth reply. I hope to try the 1070 steel and 1085 someone suggested and try to contact Ed Fowler.
Ok so heat treatment with torch is not common. This perks my interest. Maybe room here for finding out something of interest in an untested area. For example I was curious… why my D2 seemed noticeably improved when oil quenched over following the methods described with the steel when I bought it. I may have goofed up the right method. Maybe. But ‘what if’ On this steel the rules change for soak. Or—by bringing the temperature up so fast – and quenching so soon as I can ‘in and out’ just perhaps something is going on, and some of the ‘issues’ get bypassed– no time for the bad stuff to begin to happen to the steel. Because I’d think the steel would warp- or crack or not harden if there was a serious issue. Could it be better? I’m asking. It’s already better then when I followed the instructions. I’m still testing the one blade. I have carved a point on a brass brazing rod without losing sharpness. I have pried open a paint can (one of my common tests as it a common task when I need an opener and have a blade on me. Have had to hard a experimental blade snap on me ) I chipped the edge slightly driving it through a tin can but this is the nature of D2- known to be prone to chipping as one of it’s faults.
Yes I experiment and use various methods and get a variety of results. I test each knife and then speak more confidently as to what it can do and not do and state that to the customer. Or I sell it for less, or I sell a hot experiment for more. Yes I have a variety of customers. So yes, some will put it on the wall as described and others will put it to use. I walk in a lot of circles and meet a lot of people in all walks of life at a variety of income levels and variety of needs. Thus a variety of knives. I find antique chef knives and put a new handle on it and acid etch a scene e and never touch the temper. Never get it hotter then I can hold in my hand. Sell to professional chefs. I sometimes use other makers steel and offer my handle and art work for those who communicate to me they do not want any darn experimental stuff! I have ordered $20 Damascus blades from India and put my handle on and sold for $50 to those who want my work and are broke. I have customers who think I’m a genius and want my experiments! I play the role to some as a shaman, dealer in whatever cures your wants. The wizard of OZ. To some, nothing but a humbug. Flash and dash and smoke with no substance. I am not ashamed as such a person has a place in the world. I’m still the guy who left in a balloon that failed and crashed, but who else dared? Turned failure into accomplishment- turned a wilderness into a world of my making. Helping Dorothy find her home and someone else a heart and someone else courage. And this helps explain why I hear- and I reach under the counter and say “Well it seems to me you need….” Just for you. I’m the man. Part actor. Ok. Fine. So? I’m still when it is all said and done, the guy who flew out into the wilds and walked out a year later, alive. And went back again and – well maybe I know something. It is not for me to say. Yup I can learn. Why bother to listen if I’m doing ok? Because we can all do better. If we stand still we are going backwards as the world around us changes. As you say the single most important thing is honesty and integrity. Yes. It is hard when so far out there as to be out of communication with some. One comment had to do with expecting D2 to be a certain way, handled a certain way, nitrogen dunked and all that as a given. Outrageous if it’s not! I am the first to say “All is not as it seems” I do not deal in the expected. Possibly I need to be more clear about that. I’ll give that some thought. This is why I am here and why I consider learning and changing. So I can do better.
So many blade workers would not trust themselves to torch treat a blade and have confidence in the results, thus it is hard to think someone else could. Interesting. It is hard to be in someone else’s shoes. I do not mind failing. I do not mind a whole lot if something does not work. I learned how not to do it. I press on. I test enough to make a statement about the blade. I have no problem saying if so “It is crap steel but check out the inlay and handle” I’m not bothered a bit. That’s exactly what some customer wants. My good work on a display blade at a reduced price they can afford. And I do not like to talk about it… but ya I’m not normal. I can do stuff others can not. I take no credit . It’s God maybe. It has nothing to do with me. I can for example run a river boat in silt dirty water and tell you how deep the water is under us to the nearest half inch. And proven it. It’s impossible. So tell me how I do it. I only touch on the subject. I do not want to be seen as crazy. I just do what I do. There is no way to explain it to anyone. I do tell people if you have any apprehension or doubts please do not buy it. If someone tells me they do not want to buy a pig in a poke. I understand. I send them to my competitor friends. I just made 4 custom knives for one customer a week ago. No instructions beyond a price. No input. I was told something about each person in the family who I am to make knives for. That’s all. The rest was up to me. I was pretty nervous! I handed the guy his 4 knives and he fell over and told me how glad he was he never made any suggestions. Each one was ‘perfect’ for who it was going to. Someone who trusts my gift. Hardness? Yes inconstant down the edge. As I strive for. Tip softer, middle hardest, near hilt softer again. Back totally soft. Top can dig pry be used as a screwdriver if needed in an emergency. When I skin I tend to focus on the middle in a sweep rhythmic motion Tip might cut hide so not worried if it dulls faster. I can use the tip to pry between bones and such. Middle file hard needs a diamond to sharpen. I’m carful with this section – used for skinning fleshing careful work only. Soft again near hilt so I can chop with it if needed and focus near the guard so as not to chip the middle hardest section. If I need to cut the head off a nail in an emergency I can go near the guard so as not to take a chunk out of the cutting edge. I can beat the back with a rock or hammer if I must and it will dent but not break. It may look bad, but not fail in the task at hand. I am concerned about how much stress all this created in the over all blade. I pry open a new paint can, and if it does not snap it is a good sign. No I do not know about roped and 2x4 ands all this. I’m puzzled. Blade design and edge shape have more to do with the test then anything? How do I take a thick 3.5 inch x 2 wide blade and bend it 90 degrees? No way! How can I cut a 1 inch rope? I can see a bowie knife! I do not make bowie knives. Anyhow. Thanks for the input. Yes I am an artist. I have suspected for a long time most blade makers are scientists.
 
Welcome aboard Miles! I've been to your sight quite a few times but haven't bought anything yet. I share your passion for fossil and artifact finding. The one thing I wanted to comment on your knife questions was this. Yes knives are art. But they are also tools. therefore that makes us Artist Tool Makers or Functional Artists. So with that, pour as much art into the design and composition as possible. However the functioning aspect of the tool should never be compromised, so the proper heat treatment of the steel is paramount. Please read and re-read the sticky portion of this forum. There is a library's worth of information in there.

Jason
 
It seems after reading your posts, you had a good idea of what you wanted a knife to do. After than, you looked around and saw what was available to make that knife. There was some failure, but as you said, you learn what not to do. I'd say you're miles ahead of most people just knowing where to start and having goals to meet. I've seen countless posts asking for the best knife, and the poster has only the vaugest notion of what they want the knife to do.

I'll hazard a guess that heat treating with a torch is more common than most people think. It's done in garages and shops all over the country. Our mechanic used to harden our hand auger blades (for soil, not wood) using a torch and motor oil. Did he know what he was doing? Who knows, but the blades were usable for another year or so, when if left as they were, they'd have been thrown out. I've heard of people using rebar for punches, hardened with torches. They work when nothing else around will. Do you need to punch 10,000 holes? If so, you may need a top of the line, computer controlled oven treated punch. If you need to punch 50 holes a year, you may never wear that rebar punch out.

It sounds like you make due, and even excel, with what is available. Steel blades aren't that old. Stone, copper, bronze, bamboo, and all manner of other things have been used as knives. We'd laugh at someone who wanted to make straight razors out of hammered copper, because it isn't as good as steel. While that is true, if you don't have any steel, what difference does it make?

Most knifemakers are what I'd call control freaks. They want to control everything they do to a blade. Kilns and ovens make that easier. Once they get a process that works, they want to be able to repeat it. If your work is all one of a kind, then that kind of repeatability may not mean anything to you. Each blade will require it's own unique process. If you say to your customers "this is how I make my knives and this is what they'll do" none should complain. However, if you say "this is how all knives should be made, and what they should do" you'll catch an endless stream of flak from this forum.

It sounds like you do the former, with a great deal of pride, so you should continue as you see fit. If D2 will give better results in a kiln, but there isn't one in 100 miles, that doesn't really help you. If you've tried D2 properly treated in a kiln, and it didn't do what you expect of a knife, it may be that D2 isn't for you. I've tried torch treated O1 and 1095 and they both failed to do what I wanted. I switched to prehardened M2, given industrial standard treatments and have been impressed with every task I've tried with it. We all find what works for us in our current situation. When something changes, we try to improve. Sometimes all that needs to change is your mind.
 
Hey Miles,
There is no conflict between art and science, some of the finest artists master the science of the material they use. Your way may be best for you but you do not have anything to compare it to, so you wonder, no? Steel made in a foundry is science, to follow the logic of the scientific method they have developed to maximize the quality of the end product is a no brainer, you can’t miss. The artist in you is telling you to try the science for a reason, listen to your heart. In my opinion you should give yourself the easy consistency of science, and give your time and effort to your art, it is the part with the soul.
Bob
 
Miles, I just want to say, you are my hero. If you and Irene ever take visitors ut into the no mans land, let me know. I'll be up there in a Jiffy, with my learning hat on.
 
without getting long winded.. electric kiln is a very good solution.. it takes all the guess work out of it... heat treating then becomes predictable and you can go back to working on stuff

kilns are not that hard to make, aswell

by the bye... remember to inform your clients of your heat treat regime, if its okay with them... then its their dime


Greg
 
Miles, Bill Moran taught me how to harden a blade with a torch over 30 years ago, since that time I have taught many how to harden a blade with a torch. It takes practice, after Bills instruction and demonstration I practiced with a torch on a piece of mile steel for many heats until I felt I was ready to try it on 5160. It took time, but I feel I have learned.

Once you have mastered the technique you can paint the color to above critical in any aspect of the blade you want to be hard, a simple test with a magnet tells you where you are at and you quench the blade on a table in your quench tank, only quenching the part of the blade you wish to be hard. The tang is never heated to the critical zone so it will not be hard and soft tangs are not prone to breakage.

Heat treating with a torch is as much of an art as any other aspect of the knife makers trade. Either you love and appreciate it or you don't.

The most important aspect of your knife making is testing your knives to your best ability doing what you made them to do. The number one rule - enjoy your voyage and
always present your work honestly, both from a functional as well as artistic attitude.
 
Miles I've got a stepson living in Nome so I'm a bit familiar with people using knives in the bush on animals like muskox, moose caribou and numerous smaller creatures. I've got rebellions of technology all over the map that were torch or forge tempered from
Shishmaref AK to capetown South Africa. Today I make folders and the occasional fixed blade and have all the bells and whistles as far as oven, cryo with LN , dry ice and alcohol, and frozen plate quenching. AS long as you and your customers are happy just keep doing what you're doing. I'm in agreement with Ed as far as YOU DO THE TESTING.
Ken.
 
The below was sent to Ed's email befor he posted, approaching him as suggested for information. Ed suggested I make the 'sent as a personal communicaion' public since so many people ask similiar questions and he might address some of the issues brought up for others as well as mysefl to learn from. Thus sorry it is so long winded-but hope we might all learn from the exchange.


Hello Ed
I started a thread in blade forum asking a question about torch hardening steel and got a lot of discussion going. Some saying pretty much “You idiot! what are you doing? Do it the right way !” Others being tolerant- suggesting if I want to be an idiot I have that right. Others standing up for me saying wow what a gifted artist and handle maker (to bad he does not have a clue about steel). But it was suggested I come to you as ‘the man’ when it comes to torch work. I’d appreciate your time and input. If busy I understand and take no offense.
Hard to sum up my story. My web site is www.milesofalaska.net I tend to be an artist not a scientist. I began knife making over 30 years ago! I did kit knives and put my exotic handles on and acid etching scenes on the blades. It was understood people were buying my art not the steel. As such I never focused on the steel. I later began wanting my own shaped blades as I could not find what I wanted on the market. Could not afford custom. I began with unknown steel, leaf springs, saw blades, files, hacksaw blades, you name it. Cut out with a torch and ground – often I never touched the temper. I’d grind past the blue of the torch heat and shaped cold and hard. But understood this is slow and hard on belts etc. So I began’ torch treatment’.( Anneal –work- re-harden) It never occurred to me it might not work- or be an inferior product. Ignorance was bliss. I tested the blades to my standards. I cut a sheet of paper without tearing it. I shave a brass rod to a point and see if it chips, I pry open a new paint can to see if it breaks. If it passes these quick simple tests, I carry it a month or two as my utility knife, and see how it compares to what I have carried before. I skin some animal. I open boxes with it. I note how often I have to sharpen- will it sharpen in the field fast? How fast does it tarnish? As I experiment I see patterns and differences and consistencies that are well ‘instinct’? Hate to use that word that so few understand. I get a feel for how it rings when I tap it, the size and color of the sparks as I grind it, the color as I heat it, how it vibrates as I quench it, the color as it comes out of the oil etc etc. I remember. It was suggested I buy knife steel so I know it’s exact metallurgy (that arrives with instructions on how to treat it). I have dealt with Jantz supply for gosh 20 years. I just went to them and got 01 and 1095 and play around. I Live in a village of 300 people in remote Alaska. No knife makers around I’m kind of a loner. Unless someone is the best their is at what they do, I’m not interested in their opinion usually. So…. Now I am told what I am doing is not possible. But my whole life is not possible so what else is new? Well I know for a fact it is possible , but I want some input. It was suggested I try 1070 or 1085 as they are more forgiving? I liked 1095 I just liked the idea of high carbon with room to lose some carbon if I play around with the heat. The price is fine. It is a known steel customers heard of, and is used in the best Damascus as one of the critical layers. I read all that. Also their is a method to my madness. I do not randomly experiment willy nilly and not recall what I do. I wish to stick with 1-2 simple steels and get to know them and do all the changes and experiments till I feel comfortable with that steel before pressing on with something different. So what might that one steel to get to know first be? I’m not new at it so I do not want just some cheap crap as ‘learner steel’ you can hardly ruin, but has little potential. I tried D2 and like it. Border line exotic. Hard to work. I like that. I like impossible stuff. Or- I give one test, and if it likes me and we bond it’s a lifetime investment like marriage. D2 and I understand each other. I did have the chrome melt and separate on the surface at first. And I did not get it hot enough at first so never reached hardening potential. But after the test drive around the track. Oh my. I love the abrasion resistance. But anyhow..
So typical blade is 1/8 thick 5 inches long. Hold with vice grips heat with oxy acetylene torch with slightly sooty flame (so as not to burn up carbon- even add carbon. I used to heat the whole blade- then draw back by color to my desired hardness. But began to only heat treat the edge. I begin About halfway back from the edge. I tend to heat it fast- no soak. I get the edge non magnetic and hold that a moment and get it a tad hotter. Or more - to get an even heat- or maybe the term is this ‘soak’ referred to, I just call it something else. I suppose I hold that at some level of middle red. I then as I call it ‘quickly heat it over the barrier into the critical at bright red- and within as short a time as 2 seconds- quench it. I quench in a mixture of diesel fuel and engine oil as suggested in a 1960’ s book on the subject by Boyle. Oil temp tends to be on the cool side as in 50 degrees. I quench edge in fast and sweep as it quenches. I get varying results. I have tried pulling out early while blade still hot, or even out and then quench in water to speed total cool down. I think of it as two separate shocks each at critical temperature during the solidifying of the steel particles.(Martinizing?) No I have not cracked a blade but sometimes warped one. I notice it seems right if the steel is black but the edge is gray – gray meaning a file will not touch it. Or the quench drives the scale off if temperature is right. I have had good results (relative to my tests and other blades I have done) if I forge or hammer the edge of the blades while it is hot before quenching as if compressing the crystalline structure, this makes a big difference. Everything I do seems better then a kit blade or factory blade. Beyond that I do not know. I have never owned a good blade made by a master blade maker. It has to be better then factory and I feel ok about it- I’m selling my art. But if I can improve the blade, make it significantly very much better, then why not? An added plus. I have a kiln! Nope do not like to use it. Mostly? It’s not fun. I like hands on. I like to watch. I like to feel. I want to be part of the process. I use no gloves. I like to hang on at the quench and feel the blade vibrate. It’s like bonding. It’s telling me something. I want to use the torch. It’s a zen thing. Magic. I’m certain the torch will work. In some experiments…. I control the heat and get the middle section to go hardest, the tip and near guard to go softer. Thus with the finished product the tip can be abused a little and not snap. I like drop point skinners best. I can pry between bones on moose or dig in ice etc with a softer tip. The middle I am careful with and use it for fleshing- cutting vegetables- and situations where I need ‘sharp’. The near the guard is for chopping, cutting tree branches off a trial maybe or if like if I have to cut the head off a nail or something that will hurt the harder edge further up. Back is soft and will dent if I hammer on it, but not break or fail, so that is ok. I used to equalize it in the oven at like 350, let it slow cool overnight and do that twice but sigh, not seeing any measurable change. Tried dry ice and also saw no measurable difference. But may have done it wrong.
So from all I have gone over, is there something specific or a bunch of things that leap out as something to try different and see if I notice a difference? A different steel and different quench bath a different temperature, maybe re vist the normalizing step or cyro cool option? anything like that I’m thinking. Yes, I’ve been satisfied with results. So why change? Well, what others think matters in terms of my business. If major players in the knife world view me as an idiot- customers will zero in on that attitude. “Oh a Miles knife? Ya to bad his blades are such crap” that is bound to effect business. 50% of a knife is confidence. If you cant trust your knife- and or the maker- you lost your edge. Nope no customer complaints- sold maybe 500 knives in my life- not one complaint in 30 years. Nope never in my life been to a knife show. Nope have no knife maker friends. Nope do not know the knife world or names of any major players. I’m totally unable to name drop. I stepped into blade forum and listed a knife and like 2 hours later it sold. So signed myself up as a dealer and looked around. (I sell raw materials big time to knife makers- mammoth ivory and such). Anyhow I appreciate any time you can spare. I’m told you be the man when it comes to knowing the torch! (smile) Have a good holiday. Miles
 
OK Miles:
I will explain what we have found.
You cannot add carbon to steel with a torch much beyond the scale that forms on the blade at the temperatures we are working with.
I use a 2x flame on a #3 victor torch to harden blades because the flame is not concentrated to make hot spots on the blade less probable.

I started using D-2 steel but found it too brittle for the kind of knife I wanted to develop.

You are on the right track in seeking one or two steels and getting to know them well.
We chose 52100 E and 5160 for many reasons, the main one being that we have a source for high quality steel for both sources. You would be amazed at how steels of the same claimed type vary in both quality and chemistry, these two variables will drive you nuts!

You are on the right track when it comes to testing your blades, use your personal test knife for everything and do not fear the blade breaking or not holding up, you have an opportunity to learn from every broken blade. Remember sometimes it may be the quality of the steel you started with rather than your fault. Examine the fracture closely with a magnifying glass and if you see a dark spot in the fracture you know it was not necessarily your fault

I smiled when you mentioned chipping ice, one time I had to dig into a frozen pond for my horse and myself to get to water for a drink. Another time it was a beaver pond to catch dinner. Digging a hole in ice is a very demanding test for a knife tip. The colder the ice, the harder it is. As you have probably already learned a knife with no tip is tough to work with.

The oil you use is critical if you want do be able to push your blades to their limit. I have read the thoughts about mixing diesel fuel and engine oil, I recon that if that was all I had I could learn to get along with it. But I am very glad that I have a life-time supply of Texaco type A oil for quenching 52100 and 5160 blades. Remember that the more additives in your oil, the faster it will change over time. The magnet is a very useful tool for the blade smith who want to get personal with his steel, we have found that recommended temperatures are usually a little too high. If you want to use the steels we use try to find a real quenching oil with an ASTM quench time of around 18 seconds and then take time to learn it from your personal testing of blades.

Old time bladesmiths used to use rendered animal fat, one (Ben Lilly) liked mountain lion oil. I have both bear and lion oil on hand but have never tested them.

350 f. is pretty cool, I use around 388 f. to temper my blades. If the edges chip when flexed on the brass or steel rod increase your tempering temperature by 15 degree increments, 15 degrees is a significant increase.

Before you start working on a blade a low temp anneal at around 988 f. will make all that follow easier. When finished working on the blade, a few normalizing cycles will reduce any stresses before hardening. Normalize cycles, two from above critical to below critical
followed by one full normalizing cycle from above critical to room temperature in a 70 f. degree atmosphere and you are ready to give it a low temp temper, we use 988 f. heat it up slow and hold for a couple of hours and let it cool down slow.

An old black smith poem: If thou wilst a keen edge win:
forge it thick and grind it thin.

There is more, much more, but this is a good start.
 
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just curious .. Ed, i thought i saw in a blade mag that you endorsed the Paragon kilns.. if so,why in the world would you encourage this poor fella to heat treat with a torch ... especially steels like 1095,O1, and D2... i can see it for the simple steels like 1065 to 1084
 
I only speak about 52100 and 5160.
I use my Paragon for annealing and tempering the entire blade only.
 
Good Question!
No and this is why: When you heat the entire blade to Critical temp. then Attempt to only harden the bottom 1/3rd to 1/2 of the blade you have to quench the tang. One of the first things I learned is that hard tangs are prone to break, leaving you with only a handle and a blade to work with. I consider this a catastrophic failure that in the right circumstances make your work difficult. Should you be in a life threatening situation you would be in deep trouble.

I want the spine of my blades, the tang and the blade in the vicinity where it enters the guard soft. Thus I never heat these areas to critical temp. in order to be absolutely sure that they cannot harden.
 
Could you not soften the tang and other areas afterward? Since the tang is the same steel as the edge, and full thickness rather than tapered and sharpened, wouldn't it be much stronger than the edge, in addition to being surrounded by handle material? I flexed one of my blades several times before putting a handle on it. The tang was fully hardened, and showed no evidence of failure. I did make sure the tang/ricasso transition was properly radiused.

Many steels have an ability to air harden, even if partially, so if your goal is a dead soft spine, tang, and ricasso, I can see why you'd avoid heating those areas.
 
milesofalaska said:
I can honestly say my knives will…. Skin a moose- open a paint can without snapping, impress your friends by cutting a piece of paper without tearing it, cut a ¼ inch rope with one swipe if you are ever like me, out with your sled dogs and there is a dog fight and you need a knife in a hurry. It will slice and dice vegetables all day long. The steel will not break if you drop it, Sharpen your hot dog stick, open boxes, (and what else do you expect to be doing with it?)
Click to expand...

Now that is what a knife is supposed to do.

Miles, Ive looked at your site before. Ive always liked your work, but I gotta say just getting to know you a little...well, I like it even more now. If I ever get to the great white north I may give you a call, Ill even bring my SAK if you find a moose to skin. ;)

Sean
 
milesofalaska said:
The below was sent to Ed's email befor he posted, approaching him as suggested for information. Ed suggested I make the 'sent as a personal communicaion' public since so many people ask similiar questions and he might address some of the issues brought up for others as well as mysefl to learn from. Thus sorry it is so long winded-but hope we might all learn from the exchange.


Hello Ed
I started a thread in blade forum asking a question about torch hardening steel and got a lot of discussion going. Some saying pretty much “You idiot! what are you doing? Do it the right way !” Others being tolerant- suggesting if I want to be an idiot I have that right. Others standing up for me saying wow what a gifted artist and handle maker (to bad he does not have a clue about steel). But it was suggested I come to you as ‘the man’ when it comes to torch work. I’d appreciate your time and input. If busy I understand and take no offense.
Hard to sum up my story. My web site is www.milesofalaska.net I tend to be an artist not a scientist. I began knife making over 30 years ago! I did kit knives and put my exotic handles on and acid etching scenes on the blades. It was understood people were buying my art not the steel. As such I never focused on the steel. I later began wanting my own shaped blades as I could not find what I wanted on the market. Could not afford custom. I began with unknown steel, leaf springs, saw blades, files, hacksaw blades, you name it. Cut out with a torch and ground – often I never touched the temper. I’d grind past the blue of the torch heat and shaped cold and hard. But understood this is slow and hard on belts etc. So I began’ torch treatment’.( Anneal –work- re-harden) It never occurred to me it might not work- or be an inferior product. Ignorance was bliss. I tested the blades to my standards. I cut a sheet of paper without tearing it. I shave a brass rod to a point and see if it chips, I pry open a new paint can to see if it breaks. If it passes these quick simple tests, I carry it a month or two as my utility knife, and see how it compares to what I have carried before. I skin some animal. I open boxes with it. I note how often I have to sharpen- will it sharpen in the field fast? How fast does it tarnish? As I experiment I see patterns and differences and consistencies that are well ‘instinct’? Hate to use that word that so few understand. I get a feel for how it rings when I tap it, the size and color of the sparks as I grind it, the color as I heat it, how it vibrates as I quench it, the color as it comes out of the oil etc etc. I remember. It was suggested I buy knife steel so I know it’s exact metallurgy (that arrives with instructions on how to treat it). I have dealt with Jantz supply for gosh 20 years. I just went to them and got 01 and 1095 and play around. I Live in a village of 300 people in remote Alaska. No knife makers around I’m kind of a loner. Unless someone is the best their is at what they do, I’m not interested in their opinion usually. So…. Now I am told what I am doing is not possible. But my whole life is not possible so what else is new? Well I know for a fact it is possible , but I want some input. It was suggested I try 1070 or 1085 as they are more forgiving? I liked 1095 I just liked the idea of high carbon with room to lose some carbon if I play around with the heat. The price is fine. It is a known steel customers heard of, and is used in the best Damascus as one of the critical layers. I read all that. Also their is a method to my madness. I do not randomly experiment willy nilly and not recall what I do. I wish to stick with 1-2 simple steels and get to know them and do all the changes and experiments till I feel comfortable with that steel before pressing on with something different. So what might that one steel to get to know first be? I’m not new at it so I do not want just some cheap crap as ‘learner steel’ you can hardly ruin, but has little potential. I tried D2 and like it. Border line exotic. Hard to work. I like that. I like impossible stuff. Or- I give one test, and if it likes me and we bond it’s a lifetime investment like marriage. D2 and I understand each other. I did have the chrome melt and separate on the surface at first. And I did not get it hot enough at first so never reached hardening potential. But after the test drive around the track. Oh my. I love the abrasion resistance. But anyhow..
So typical blade is 1/8 thick 5 inches long. Hold with vice grips heat with oxy acetylene torch with slightly sooty flame (so as not to burn up carbon- even add carbon. I used to heat the whole blade- then draw back by color to my desired hardness. But began to only heat treat the edge. I begin About halfway back from the edge. I tend to heat it fast- no soak. I get the edge non magnetic and hold that a moment and get it a tad hotter. Or more - to get an even heat- or maybe the term is this ‘soak’ referred to, I just call it something else. I suppose I hold that at some level of middle red. I then as I call it ‘quickly heat it over the barrier into the critical at bright red- and within as short a time as 2 seconds- quench it. I quench in a mixture of diesel fuel and engine oil as suggested in a 1960’ s book on the subject by Boyle. Oil temp tends to be on the cool side as in 50 degrees. I quench edge in fast and sweep as it quenches. I get varying results. I have tried pulling out early while blade still hot, or even out and then quench in water to speed total cool down. I think of it as two separate shocks each at critical temperature during the solidifying of the steel particles.(Martinizing?) No I have not cracked a blade but sometimes warped one. I notice it seems right if the steel is black but the edge is gray – gray meaning a file will not touch it. Or the quench drives the scale off if temperature is right. I have had good results (relative to my tests and other blades I have done) if I forge or hammer the edge of the blades while it is hot before quenching as if compressing the crystalline structure, this makes a big difference. Everything I do seems better then a kit blade or factory blade. Beyond that I do not know. I have never owned a good blade made by a master blade maker. It has to be better then factory and I feel ok about it- I’m selling my art. But if I can improve the blade, make it significantly very much better, then why not? An added plus. I have a kiln! Nope do not like to use it. Mostly? It’s not fun. I like hands on. I like to watch. I like to feel. I want to be part of the process. I use no gloves. I like to hang on at the quench and feel the blade vibrate. It’s like bonding. It’s telling me something. I want to use the torch. It’s a zen thing. Magic. I’m certain the torch will work. In some experiments…. I control the heat and get the middle section to go hardest, the tip and near guard to go softer. Thus with the finished product the tip can be abused a little and not snap. I like drop point skinners best. I can pry between bones on moose or dig in ice etc with a softer tip. The middle I am careful with and use it for fleshing- cutting vegetables- and situations where I need ‘sharp’. The near the guard is for chopping, cutting tree branches off a trial maybe or if like if I have to cut the head off a nail or something that will hurt the harder edge further up. Back is soft and will dent if I hammer on it, but not break or fail, so that is ok. I used to equalize it in the oven at like 350, let it slow cool overnight and do that twice but sigh, not seeing any measurable change. Tried dry ice and also saw no measurable difference. But may have done it wrong.
So from all I have gone over, is there something specific or a bunch of things that leap out as something to try different and see if I notice a difference? A different steel and different quench bath a different temperature, maybe re vist the normalizing step or cyro cool option? anything like that I’m thinking. Yes, I’ve been satisfied with results. So why change? Well, what others think matters in terms of my business. If major players in the knife world view me as an idiot- customers will zero in on that attitude. “Oh a Miles knife? Ya to bad his blades are such crap” that is bound to effect business. 50% of a knife is confidence. If you cant trust your knife- and or the maker- you lost your edge. Nope no customer complaints- sold maybe 500 knives in my life- not one complaint in 30 years. Nope never in my life been to a knife show. Nope have no knife maker friends. Nope do not know the knife world or names of any major players. I’m totally unable to name drop. I stepped into blade forum and listed a knife and like 2 hours later it sold. So signed myself up as a dealer and looked around. (I sell raw materials big time to knife makers- mammoth ivory and such). Anyhow I appreciate any time you can spare. I’m told you be the man when it comes to knowing the torch! (smile) Have a good holiday. Miles
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You type as if you are talking....

If you were to hit the enter key every time that you would naturally take a breath, that would really go a long way to helping me read what you write.
 
ME2: You are correct that some steels can and do air harden. I have tried to temper tangs on some fully hardened blades and was not as successful as when I anneal the entire blade after forging at 988 f. In the Paragon at room temp. Heat to 988 in one hour and soak for 2 hours, let it cool down slow to room temp. in the Paragon with the door closed then naturally back in the house freezer, for three cycles, then never again heat the tang to the point where it can harden. I can drill my tangs, cut them off with a hack saw, bend them any way I want to and have never had one break. This is why I stick with the method I do. Some claim that to anneal a blade you need to go to 1,400 f. the textbook claims much higher, much higher (over 1,800 f.) results is large grain thus negating all the work refining the grain.
I tried lowering the temp from 1,450 f. testing blades after every 100 degree drop and finally quit at 988 f. I believe I could go lower, but have not devoted the time to experiment with it. 52100 and 5160 tangs are strong in proportion to size and can withstand 90 degree flexes back and forth until they are too hot to handle.

A friend who hardens in his blades in a Paragon bringing the entire blade above critical and edge quenching which naturally hardens the tang, brought a blade wanting me to drill holes in the tang that he had tried to temper back with a torch. I could not drill them.

This is how and why I do it the way I do.
 
Miles, you should keep your style and art. It is unique to you and part of your way of life. That said I think you have the need to develop a method that gives consistant results with the heat treating of steel. Even the masters such as Ed Fowler and Wayne Goddard seem to avoid mystery steels and recycling steels of unkown origin. As you become more well known people will expect the blades you make to have consistant performance. The guy that easily skins a Moose with one of your knives will expect the next one and the ones he gets his friends to buy to do the same or better. I do not think most knifemakers are scientists or artists. I think most are just good craftsmen that are trying to get better. Good luck and keep up the great work!
 
Ed,

Have you done any micrographs on the blades after the annealing cycles? I'd be curious about the structure, though I think I can guess what it is.
 
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