Total Newbie: First Knife UPDATE: Done!

S

Steve98

Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
17
Hi,

So after a little while lurking I'm about to start what will likely be the longest and slowest first knife-project in history. My goal is to make a knife somewhere between these three:
takeda-classic-deba-bocho-180mm-15.png

takeda-classic-gyuto-240mm-medium-11.png

takeda-classic-sasanoha-210mm-medium-7.png


Let me say first off, I understand not everyone thinks these knives are beauties - but it's what I'm going for. Also, I figure the "rustic" look plays to my lack of skills.

When I say I want to end up somewhere in between those three knives, what I mean really relates to thickness: The Deba knife (top photo) of course is basically a clever. I figure that is easiest for me to achieve since it's so thick. It'll be useful for me, since I don't have a clever, but I like it least. The second two photos are thin chef knives. They are about 2mm thin at the spin, some distal taper, and thin considerably towards the edge. In all cases, the knife I make will have a blade length of around 8", and I will do scale handles (not a Wa handle - I don't want to take on the hidden tang at the moment under the assumption that the exposed tang w/scales should be easier).

I'm starting with:
  • 3/16" O1, 2" wide.
  • I have an angle grinder, bench grinder, 10" flat Nicholson single-cut bastard file, bench vise, and a pretty good assortment of other hand tools.
  • I have a 20lb reasonably flat hunk of granite (or it will be flat once I finish angle grinding it a bit more) - this is the closet thing to an anvil I have located.
  • A regular framing hammer - but I could be talked into picking up a 4lb blacksmith hammer at my local homedepot if I go the forging route, and if I'm told I need it.
  • I have a swirlflame bernzomatic MAPP torch.
  • I'm reasonably handy, and an ok woodworker. I have never done metal work before.

My basic plan will be:
  1. Cut the outline of the blade using a combination of hacksaw, jig saw, and anglegrinder with cutoff blade.
  2. File, file, file some more. Is there any chance I'll "use up" the file? I have no idea how long a file lasts...I know I need to only apply force in the one direction, and I'll use chalk on the file.
  3. Heat treat, quench in vegetable oil in a metal container.
  4. Temper in my oven at ~400, I'll let it heat up in the oven for around 30 minutes, then turn the oven off and let it cool to ambient.
  5. I'll then do the final grind with either the bench grinder, or my angle grinder (with a metal grinding disk).
  6. I'll attach the handles. I'll probably just epoxy them and not use and rivets.
  7. Sand at the blade edge. I'll leave the rest of the blade looking however it looks (I assume it will look..."rustic"?)

What I'm trying to figure out is:
  1. Do I need a forge? I figure the only way I can avoid a forge is if I am able to flame-harden the blade. I have no idea if that is possible with just my torch. If I could get that differential hardening wavy effect, I'd be really happy about it.
  2. If I need a forge, I'm thinking about doing the coffee-can approach with plaster-paris and sand. Will the coffee-can+sand+plaster forge work (using the aforementioned MAPP torch)? Or will I find it too underpowered for an 8" blade? I'll be operating it outside in about 0C (32F) weather. If need be, I can try to find some soft refractory brick - I assume it's available somewhere in Toronto where I am, but I don't know a specific place at the moment.
  3. Would a coal forge be easier/better for me on a first go? I'd end up using regular coal and a hair dryer in some metal container outside...
  4. Should I try to actually forge and hammer the blade? Or should I just go with a material removal blade as a first try? If I hammer the blade, then I would want to use that as an opportunity to make the blade taller and of course thinner.
  5. In either case, should I try to make a thin blade? Or should I stick with the thicker clever (in which case the spine thickness will be just slightly smaller than the O1 stock I'm starting with).
  6. Is all of this crazy and I should start with a 3" utility knife?

I'd appreciate any help people are willing to give. I'm looking, of course, to keep my investment down at this point since I have no idea if I'll find any of this enjoyable.

Cheers,

Steve.
 
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Welcome! I don't use a forge (because I only do stock removal blades so far)...id really like one, and it would make life easier, but I get bye without it. With O1, you need to "soak" the blade at non magnetic heat for 15 minutes...it doesn't sound like you have the ability to go that.Make a "soup can" forge and your map gas torch may work...but, Make life easier for yourself and get 1084, then there is no soak required.
Trying to grind a belvle with an angle grinder will not work well...look up Arron gough's filing jig.
Do a stock removal blade before you try forging...and the smaller the knife you make, the less disappointed you will be when it doesn't turn out how you want:). I speak from experience there:).
Oh, and you definitely want to use pins in addition to epoxy.
Did I cover everything? Good luck! There are other people on this forum that know a whole lot more than I do that may be able to help you more!
 
If your going for a rustic look on the upper part of the blade you should probably try to forge that becuse without forge marks it will only look like unpolished steel and not "rustic".
 
I will say that's a tall task for a first knife. Lots of new folks, myself included, try to start too big and too complex. I learned the hard way so I'll leave that up to you. You can make a forged looking patina with a sponge and some mustard. You can also do stock removal and then apply a forged finish. Heat it up and hit it with a hammer. Take a grinder or cutoff wheel to the head of a hammer. Just make some random cuts and lines in it. This will make the forged finish on the flats.
 
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The sides of these knives are concave and not flat. Also these are very thin and tall. Great cutters, get one and study it before you try to make one.

Hoss
 
I don't have much experience, as Ive just recently finished my first blade, but it came out pretty good. I wouldn't have tackled something that big for my first project, but I do plan on doing a set of kitchen knives soon. One thing I will tell you is that 3/16" is too thick for a chefs knife. From what Ive seen .125 is about as thick as you want to go. Most people seem to say that between .080-.100" is ideal.

And as far as heat treatment for O1, I built a small forge out of a gallon paint can with plaster of paris and sand mixed in equal ratios for the refractory, and use a Bernzomatic propane torch to heat it, and quenched in canola oil, then cleaned it up and tempered it twice at 400* for two hours.
 
This is a tall order for a first knife.

The biggest issue I see is you don't really have the right tools. Angle and bench grinders really have no place in making a kitchen knife. If you are not going to get a belt grinder then look up Aaron Gough's file guide and just use a file.

The brute de forge style finish requires a forge and some type of anvil, not granite. It will not look like that by just leaving scale from heat treat.

There is a lot of information here that can help you out and I suggest seeking that out and getting familiar with what works and what doesn't. It will only save you time and money down the road. Look at the sticky at the top of the forum and spend a few days reading some of the info in there. Then I think you will have a better shot and making a usable knife.

Good luck

-Clint
 
I second using Aaron Gough's file guide. I built one for around $20 and between that and my $35 1x30 belt sander from Harbor Freight, i was able to finish my knife. I probably watched a good 8+ hours of youtube tutorials before I even picked up the metal I had for my first knife.

And as far as the finish, you can just force a patina on O1 pretty easily. I did mine with some horseradish, but anything with a high vinegar content will work. O1 will patina on its own anyway. This is how mine came out.

jMhmiHi.jpg
 
Some thoughts:

Use 1084, and start with stock removal. You'll pay more for O1, and you won't take it near it's potential.

Don't start off trying to make a 13 inch knife, it will take forever, be frustrating, and when you finally have it all ground to shape, you'll probably end up warping it in heat treat anyway.

For a chef's knife you'll want to go thinner, which would present it's own challenges. I say make an 7or8" overall basic hunter style first.

On your temper, you should temper longer. As I understand it, the time isn't nearly as critical as the temperature. For 1084 I find 2 sets of 1 hour at (not including heat up time) 400-450 work well.

You can epoxy the handle on, but you'll still want to pin it so that the handle won't sheer off.

If knife making is something you want to do, practice before you attempt the knife you want. If it were easy to make quality knives right off the bat, everyone would do it.
Get all the basic processes figured out, and you'll be happier when you make "your knife".
 
yessahmassah said:
I second using Aaron Gough's file guide. I built one for around $20 and between that and my $35 1x30 belt sander from Harbor Freight, i was able to finish my knife. I probably watched a good 8+ hours of youtube tutorials before I even picked up the metal I had for my first knife.

And as far as the finish, you can just force a patina on O1 pretty easily. I did mine with some horseradish, but anything with a high vinegar content will work. O1 will patina on its own anyway. This is how mine came out.

jMhmiHi.jpg
Click to expand...

Since you haven't enabled email, I gotta ask here....
How is that blade anywhere similar to what you started with a few days ago? Is it an earlier first attempt? If so, the newer ones will hopefully be a lot better.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1353489-Could-laser-cutting-O1-somehow-harden-it
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Since you haven't enabled email, I gotta ask here....
How is that blade anywhere similar to what you started with a few days ago? Is it an earlier first attempt? If so, the newer ones will hopefully be a lot better.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1353489-Could-laser-cutting-O1-somehow-harden-it
Click to expand...

The one pictured is the first one I did. I finished it a month or two ago.

And its not THAT bad. Haha. Atleast for a first knife.
 
Steve98;

"So after a little while lurking I'm about to start what will likely be the longest and slowest first knife-project in history."

Start with the utility knife using 1084 and work up to the 8" chef knife. 3/16" is too thick for these knives. You might be able to heat treat a small utility knife using a one brick forge and your MAPP gas. Keep us in the loop and the above statement will likely be proved incorrect.
 
yessahmassah said:
The one pictured is the first one I did. I finished it a month or two ago.

And its not THAT bad. Haha. Atleast for a first knife.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that didn't translate into text very well. I took your other thread as them being first knives and the one pictured is nothing like them.

It isn't the worst first knife that I ever saw, but shows why posting plans and drawings is a good idea.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Sorry, that didn't translate into text very well. I took your other thread as them being first knives and the one pictured is nothing like them.

It isn't the worst first knife that I ever saw, but shows why posting plans and drawings is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Yea, I know what I screwed up on though, and Im working on fixing it. Step one. Don't sand the blade with an orbital sander. My plunge line looks like a bar of worn soap. lol
 
Hey Steve98,

I'm new as well but I can give you some tips. I'm actually working on a sword right now with roughly the same dimensions and steel as what you plan on using (3/16 thick, 1.5 inch wide x 36 inch O1 steel). I'm using a 10 inch Nicholson single cut mill bastard file and am only doing stock removal.

First off, you mentioned that from those examples, the spine is roughly 2 mm thick. 3/16 inch is quick thick if you want the spine to be that thin. You would save yourself a lot of time if you started with something thinner. Using a hacksaw is quite a task and you will probably spend a few hours making those cuts. If you do, make sure you leave yourself a bit of extra material around the profile lines in case you accidentally make a mistake while hacking away (it will happen). It's too much work to cut curves by hand (if that's actually possible) so just smooth it out on a rock. It's a lot easier and gives you a lot of control. It just takes a few extra hours.

Stock removal is not as time consuming as you might think and it is not that difficult. It also gives you a lot of control. For my sword, I've logged about 53 hours of primary beveling and shaped it to a diamond cross section. Keep in mind that I actually spent about 20% of the time filing. The rest is cleaning the file (get yourself a good file brush), vacuuming, and measuring. If you use your file properly, it won't wear out anytime soon. I'm doing draw filing for 25 inches of relatively straight length so it might be easier for me than for you.

1, 2, 3) You don't technically need a forge if you can somehow maintain an even heat at the minimum temperature over the areas of the blade that you want heat treated. Heat escapes pretty quickly in the open if you only have a torch. A charcoal forge would probably be the easiest to set up. For an 8 inch blade, you could probably use an old frying pan or a grill. Know your local laws though. I believe in Toronto, it is illegal to have an open fire and burn solid fuel. Cover the flames and you should be ok. That's what I do.

4) Forging without a good heat source / anvil is difficult. Yesterday, I was trying to determine whether O1 would air harden a bit if it's 0 °C outside and decided to give it a few whacks while it's medium red. It took a lot of strikes to move it a small bit. Stock removal is easier at least until you have some equipment and time to practice.

5) This depends on what you want your blade to look like and how much time you are willing to spend on it.

6) Personally, I don't think it's crazy. Some may say that you should start small but you don't necessarily need to learn how to use every single tool properly and effectively and run through a few pieces just to make one knife in record time. If you are willing to put in extra hours for the grunt work, you will get it done.

You might find this interesting. I came across this posting on kijiji a few days ago regarding blacksmith work space rental. I've emailed them but they haven't replied. It might be worth trying out there as it would cost around $10/hr for the basics.
Link: http://www.kijiji.ca/v-commercial-o...ronto/blacksmith-shop-space-rental/1119700758

Let me know if you get more info on that.

Just curious, where are you getting your steel?
 
A couple thoughts.

First, get thinner steel. O1 is fine as long as you are willing to send it out for heat treat. 1084 and 15n20 are easier to heat treat, and come in thin stock as well. Save the O1 for a different project later, when you are forging, or need a thicker blade. The time wasted on thinning this stock out by hand is easily worth the small expense of buying thinner stock.

Start with the paring knife. Get some experience under your belt before tackling a larger kitchen knife.

Forget advanced techniques like the knives you pictured. Next Christmas might be a good time to try them. Get some experience making functional knives first. A knife is a tool. It doesn't have to be pretty. Get an understanding of geometry and handle shape first. Then concentrate on esthetics.

Post your design here, and you will get many suggestions from people who understand knife function. Small tweaks can make a huge difference in performance.

Have fun. This is the most important part.
 
Just make the knife you want to make. You can't believe how much you will learn in the process. And then number two will be whole bunches better. And have fun doing it!
 
Willie71 said:
A couple thoughts.

First, get thinner steel. O1 is fine as long as you are willing to send it out for heat treat.
Click to expand...

Why would you need to send O1 out for heat treating? My first knife was O1 and I did it in my back yard in a coffee can forge.
 
Hi everyone, thanks for all the responses.

For everyone who suggested I start with thinner steel: I'll see if I can get some.Unfortunately, I didn't have a lot of options but I will try.

Re the Grough file guide/jig - I'll build and use one, thanks to everyone who made the suggestion. Turns out he's in Toronto too.

I'm going to aim a little lower and switch to a 6" knife, still aiming for something like the Takeda's I linked above.

Some specific responses:
Augus7us said:
The brute de forge style finish requires a forge and some type of anvil, not granite. It will not look like that by just leaving scale from heat treat.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand. I'm hoping/expecting that the forge and heat treat will cause the dark color, but that the surface texture itself (i.e., the hammered look) obviously requires hammering. Is that what you mean or is there more I'm not getting.

duurza said:
You might find this interesting. I came across this posting on kijiji a few days ago regarding blacksmith work space rental. I've emailed them but they haven't replied. It might be worth trying out there as it would cost around $10/hr for the basics.
Link: http://www.kijiji.ca/v-commercial-o...ronto/blacksmith-shop-space-rental/1119700758
Click to expand...
I've emailed them as well (just two days ago) - no response yet either. If they are anywhere near me, then I'll head there for sure.

duurza said:
Just curious, where are you getting your steel?
Click to expand...
I bought the O1 at Metal Supermarkets. I paid $60CDN for it (2" x 36" x .188") which seems like an ok amount. They didn't have a lot of options though, and were pretty confusing about what they could and could-not get.
 
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