Trade etiquette: asking someone to ship first?

Friends an fellow knife afficianados:

As a fairly new member, who has had made a few mistakes here and in life, I would like to add to this discussion. I believe that being asked to ship first is in no way offensive. I have offered to ship first and have never been taken up on it. I believe that by taking this as a first step, it is a gesture of good faith and is an important step towards establishing trust. Granted, there are scam artists out there, but if we as humans believe the worst in everyone else then we will ALL be jumping at shadows. This goes against the promise of God that says "We have not been given a spirit of fear..." I believe that we should still believe in each other and trust a handshake and a man's word
 
It's a fair request and perfectly understandable.

But it can be abused, though that happens rarely. I recall incidents on other forums where someone shipped first, only to have the other trader hold onto their stuff and "play" with it only to determine that they didn't want to complete the deal - and this had nothing to do with a defective or misrepresented item.

As for my limited experience, of the only time I was requested to ship first, the other end immediately listed my knife for sale/trade before he even shipped his end - if I recall exactly, he did so before he even had the knife in his possession (right after I sent him tracking info). What's done is done anyhow.
 
I have absolutely no problems with asking someone with minimal feedback to ship first, not at all. Ive done it a few times, only once did a member feel opposed, he passed but eventually pm'ed again stating he would indeed ship first. Seen too many bad deals involving new unestablished members to ever risk it. If someone takes it as a negative that I would ask and not see the logic behind it, then I likely dont wanna trade with that user anyway. If I were to go to a new forum, have no fb, deal with someone who did, I wouldnt hesitate to ship first, as all Im out is a little bit of cuddle time with my new toy, big deal.
 
bigmark408 said:
There are those out there that have mastered the scam using paypal....i lost a NIB MT OTF to a scumbag.
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Was it the "significantly not as described" scam or did he claim your knife never arrived?

Once bitten, twice shy in my case there as well. I'll rarely take PP in payment on BFC and that's the main reason I hardly ever sell anything on eBay anymore.

The general consensus of the responses so far is that asking newbies to ship first is OK. The point about it being no different than a seller waiting for payment to arrive was a very logical one, and it helped bolster my opinion that it shouldn't be considered offensive to ask members with little feedback to show good faith when trading with a member who has lots of feedback. LorenzoL makes a good point about the recent flap with Benya, but there is always an understood risk when dealing with other human beings.

I do wonder about situations where neither party has much feedback--I suppose that has to be an act of faith from both parties---but nobody HAS to trade knives. When I first started in the exchange I made it a point to deal with members who had lots of + feedback.

FYI: I noticed one of the people reading the thread recently was someone who initially prompted me to ask the question. I'm sorry I inadvertently insulted you sir, but it looks like a lot of other people would have asked you to ship first as well.
 
elkins45 said:
FYI: I noticed one of the people reading the thread recently was someone who initially prompted me to ask the question. I'm sorry I inadvertently insulted you sir, but it looks like a lot of other people would have asked you to ship first as well.
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I do hope you are not talking about me.
 
To some of you guys who say you would not ship simultaneously to a person with low itrader feedback rating, why don't you check mine and let me know if you would ask me to ship first?

Just remember that many of us are not serial knife traders or mini closet dealers. Also, many of us long time members were trading and selling knives long before the itrader system was implemented, which has only been I believe for the last 4 to 5 years. Also, not everyone leaves itrader feedback after a positive knife transaction, as has happened to me on several occasions, one as recently as within the last two months. I will not beg for feedback even though I do mention leaving it in my initial trade confirmation email.
 
alex,
Your join date suggests you have been here a while and are not real new to these parts.
Your low post count suggests you read and think more than you type.


I guess if I had a trade going we would exchange emails a bit and figure it out.
 
turk.919 said:
I do hope you are not talking about me.
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No, I was talking about someone viewing the thread (see the active members list in the LL corner) not someone who had posted in it. He sent me an email on a ~$300 custom knife and acted very insulted when in my response I asked if he was willing to ship first. He had a single digit post count, joined this month, and had zero feedback. With a +1000 post count I would think you are in an entirely different class.
 
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my first deal here i was asked to ship first and provide a DC#.
I thought it was reasonable that he asked me to do that. I would've done the same.
 
I've asked people who are new to ship first. I tell them that it's protocol, which think it ought to be. If I were new, I'd completely understand someone asking me to ship first.
 
although back in the "good old days" (not really that long ago.....) i woulda never asked someone new/low post count/etc to ship 1st i would nowadays, if the other individual doesnt wanna do it, thats fine too.

thru dozens if not hundreds of deals on this forum, some involving custom knives valued well over $1K, i have never had even one bit of a problem, but imho its just different now vs 4 or 5 yrs ago when i was an active buyer/swapper/seller.

imho my rep speaks foir itself, i am not on here to rip anyone off, why would someone with low post count/new/etc have a problem with shipping 1st?

and i dont have a strict number i go by, its just how i feel about the other person, but i am wary of someone on the forum less than a couple of months and less than 20 posts all of which involve selling or buying stuff with little or no contributions as far as the other stuff goes, now if ya contribute info regularly and are involved on the discussion boards thats a plus to me and matters more than the count/etc, that ya are on this forum for more than just to sell/buy stuff, that counts a lot, in fact, back in the "good old days" most folks were here for that reason, to learn and exchange info, vs buying/selling stuff..
 
alex said:
To some of you guys who say you would not ship simultaneously to a person with low itrader feedback rating, why don't you check mine and let me know if you would ask me to ship first?

Just remember that many of us are not serial knife traders or mini closet dealers. Also, many of us long time members were trading and selling knives long before the itrader system was implemented, which has only been I believe for the last 4 to 5 years. Also, not everyone leaves itrader feedback after a positive knife transaction, as has happened to me on several occasions, one as recently as within the last two months. I will not beg for feedback even though I do mention leaving it in my initial trade confirmation email.
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I'm in the same situaion, look at my post count. Just don't deal that much in blades. I have done a deal on here tho. (went smooth as silk BTW) That being said I do have stellar feedback on ebay and arfcom.
 
It's reasonable and in fact a good idea. I once required a newbie to send a MO first myself, and he didn't seem to mind at al. In the end, he got positive feedback and a good knife.

You're free to put conditions on any deal as you see fit. If someone doesn't want to deal with you because of that, then that's okay to. It's freedom of contract.

I'm thankful that I've never had a bad deal here, but I stop by GB&U every once in a while to remind myself that things can go wrong.

My own conditions include that I accept Paypal only from members with positive iTrader feedback, and I always check iTrader and GB&U. But if someone doesn't have any track record, it's smart to be cautious.
 
elkins45 said:
No, I was talking about someone viewing the thread (see the active members list in the LL corner) not someone who had posted in it. He sent me an email on a ~$300 custom knife and acted very insulted when in my response I asked if he was willing to ship first. He had a single digit post count, joined this month, and had zero feedback. With a +1000 post count I would think you are in an entirely different class.
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That doesn't pass the smell test!
 
elkins45 said:
He had a single digit post count, joined this month, and had zero feedback. With a +1000 post count I would think you are in an entirely different class.
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Thats fair.

But the way I see things, I figure you elkins could scam me (not that you would) far easier then I could scam you. If I complained your friends could just shout me down or post-hunt until I was banned from the forums and the problem would very quickly pushed under the rug. Again, its just an example I know your a good guy from your posts.

However if I scammed you, there would be massive amounts of support on your side and you could publish my address and name which could have serious consequences.

I'm sure people get scammed both ways but after a year and a few hundred posts I can't picture one side getting scammed at a higher frequency. I mean really if I was willing to break the law to get some cash, there are far more productive routes.

If a trade falls through its a loss for both parties.
 
mat_890 said:
If a trade falls through its a loss for both parties.
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That's true only if both parties entered into it in good faith, and both actually shipped.

I can see how a scumbag could set up a whole string of user names and offer 10 different trades to 10 different users with no intention of shipping anything. He gets 10 free knives and only feels the consequences IF local law enforcement wants to get involved. I'm guessing it's hard to get the local sheriff 900 miles away to track down a $75 knife, and there's no guarantee that the BFC members who were taken will all discover he is a thief multiple times over.

I guess I'm fortunate in that I don't NEED to trade for anything and I don't NEED to sell anything. That gives me the luxury of saying no. I'm of the same opinion with PayPal and the scams that are run with it. I have a custom up for sale that might have been sold five times over if I was willing to take PP from new users with single digit post counts. No thank you, I would rather keep it...it's a nice knife and I don't need the cash that badly. I know I'm probably being too cautious, but that's my mistake to make.
 
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I would consider it logical if I, for example, would be expected to ship first. But what is up with Liu Kang whom LorenzoL mentioned? Is he a ripoff or something? Because I saw him selling Arc Angels but somehow had a bad feeling about it.
 
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