Traditionals and Tacticals

[Phil in Alabama]

I'm not as uptight as I might seem Sometimes the correct words to convey what I wish to write are difficult to find, and things come out sounding wrong. I'm a knife knut just like the rest of you guys, my wife thinks I'm crazy, why do you need more than one, it's just a tool to cut things with..................................And wives call US crazy!!

People buy the things they buy because of gut feelings. When you look at the knives or use the knives, they have to make you feel right emotionally, or you don't care for them. Modern knives just don't trip my trigger. I realize that traditionals don't attract everyone either. But it always seems as if someone is picking a them vs. us type argument on these internet boards. Scopes vs iron sights, plastic vs wood, stainless vs carbon, folder vs fixed, car vs truck, it doesn't have to be a contest every single time to determine whose is better and bigger.

Some of us even have a "pattern fixation" within the traditional styles of knives. I happen to like folding hunters and copperheads above all others. Some folks love stockmans, while I have only two and hardly ever use them. When I reach for a knife, I reach for the one that has an emotional attachment, and since I love hunting, the hunter type knives are what I pick. I see black plastic/shiny aluminum/pocket clips/serrated edges, etc, I go YUCK and turn my head the other way, they just make me ill and if that's all I had available to cut with, I'd just go get a Stanley utility knife with throwaway blades like I use at work ever day and forget about carrying anything else. Hand me a red bone folding hunter, or stag copperhead, and I'm happy.

 

[Karl5]

I'm happy with my Stockman and my SAK though lately I have added a Spanish Navaja...

Navajas... Nice!!!! :thumbup:
Just being curious here:
The Navajas are traditionally very big knives, so I'm just guessing yours is too.
Do you ever find it too big and cumbersome to carry as edc?

/ Karl

 

[shaldag]

I carry both traditional multiblades and one-hand openers all the time. While appreciating the asthetics f the slipjoionts, not to mention the materials involved, there are many times that I need to get the blade out fast--I am constantly using the knife. I don't really consider Benchmades and Spydercos "tactical"--I don't really think in those terms, and I don't carry a knife for self-defense.

Jackknife addressed some serious concerns, and personally, I think that this was the right forum for his post. Addressing some of Jackknife's comments, I am not sure that you are being completely fair. While it is true that you can find a lot of spydercos and Benchmades in the hundreds of dollar range, many of these are custom collaborations using premium materials. I am sure that the cost of milling titanium is high, and I bet that it is costlier to make a blade form S30V than from, say, 52100.

Look at the custom collaborations in the slipjoint world. The Queen Dan Burke Real Cattle Knife, for example, or the English Jack. The Case Tony Bose collaborations, and the Schrade Kious. All of them costing a few hundred. That is what you should compare to the Spyderco Ed Schempp models and the Benchmade Warren Osbornes.

And there is something to consider for all of us. There are many people who will say "you paid $1{insert number of zeros here}.00 fior a knife?!? There may not be as many who will say that about a SAK as about a high-end tactical, and there will be even more who say that about custom knives. In my opinion, those are folks who just don't get it.

 

[Don_Luis]

...Navajas are traditionally very big knives...

Yes they are but nowadays they come in small sizes too, here's a picture of my small one, about 3 1/2 inches closed, with a pen and a 2AA LED Maglite for size comparison.

Luis


Click to enlarge

 

[jackknife]

Now THATS a very stylish knife!:thumbup:

 

[mnblade]

So with cheaper materials, cheaper labor cost, where do Spyderco, Benchmade, and dare I say the name, Dork Opps, get off with the prices they charge? ... If Victorinox can build a 12 blade, 20 function knife, ship it to America, pay import duty, pay trasport to distribute, and STILL sell it for 39.95, and Spyderco sells a single blade plastic handle knife for the same or more, something is wrong.

Sorry, but I can't blame Spyderco that there's a demand for what they supply.

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

I think a lot of the difference is simply in the mindset and interest. High speed, do the Dew, Xtreme sports, and similar mindsets eat up the modern materials and way cool, tough looks of the tactical and modern knives. While not all younger types go in for those type knives, as evidenced by Vivi and a few of our other young bloods here, the general choice by younger knife buyers and users is the modern stuff. They was those things that look bada**, hardcore, and make them feel tricked out and ready to deploy! Many of us have been through that phase. Add to that that many of them never grew up around traditional knives or were around them being used in what we think of as a traditional environment.

Where many of us considered hunting and fishing as not only food gathering jaunts, but also a time to relax and consider just being there the best part of the experience, the emphasis today is hitting it hard, fast, and scoring big. Look at BassMasters and BuckMasters. The bag, the score is the whole reason for being there. Where the old fishing shows emphasised being there and the pleasure of a good fight, carefully waged, until you could work the fish in close enough to get hold of it. Too many of the current fishing shows are tournaments. The guy hits a fish and it's a fast real and a hard yank into the boat. The whole point is to get the fish in as fast as you can and get your lure back into the water for more poundage. For that the gear is the latest, super materials, made for ripping fish out of the water quickly. That mindset is the same that is hot on the modern folders and tacticals.

A kid (26) I work with passed right over my Shephard Hills catalog as boring and nearly orgasmed over the fantasy knives in the SMKW catalog. Another young fellow is a former Stryker Team soldier, well trained in CQB. Naturally, his interest in guns and knives flows to tactical.

Guys who run towards traditional knives generally move to a different song. Usually one that speaks of crisp, fall days, evenings on the porch, campfires, and a deeper, quieter moving, way of life. Some of it is growing up in a different era with a different way of life. Some of it is people who are trying to reach out and embrace an older way of life that they find more satisfying. Some just enjoy the things Jackknife spoke of - natural materials, more hand workmanship, a feeling of a finely made tool in your hand.

Many of the tactical/modern types figure traditional knife lovers are just a bunch of old fogeys who are clinging to obsolete, useless knives. Many of them don't understand just how useful and still very capable the traditional knives are.

Traditional types love their knives for all the above reasons and more. To them, as stated by Jackknife and others, moderns and tacticals are the very example of all that is wrong with a good knife.

Some appreciate that a good, modern folder can be handy at times, as well as a good, modern type, fixed blade, but just prefer the pleasure of traditional materials and patterns.

It really comes down to two different mindsets and reasons for owning a knife. What appeals to one probably offends the senses of the other, and the same reversed.

 

[kamagong]

I like both. Fortunately, I don't have to choose between them.

 

[Codger_64]

Jackknife, your post strikes close to home for me in many ways. Mostly the nostalgic, emotional side. Amos, your post hits home for me along the lines of logic on this subject.

When Imperial Schrade went belly up, I was drawn like a moth to a flame to buy examples of their entire line for examination and review. As the focus of my interest was "what were they doing at the end, and how did they get there", I naturally started with the last production pieces in 2004 and worked backwards. This was my intro to their lines of "modern" knife designs which I had ignored faithfully for years. "Space Debris" was my term for those knives.

Schrade, like many companies, tried to satisfy as wide of a spectrum of the market as possible. While still being a major supplier of traditional patterns (the Old Timer and Uncle Henry lines), they began to introduce new designs to appeal to a new emerging market, the group now referred to as "Generation X". The "Greatest Generation" for years had become a progressively smaller market segment as "Baby Boomers" gained affluence and became players in the economy. But now the post-WWII crowd, mostly drawn to traditional patterns, is slowly declining. This is my generation. Schrade even introduced a line called "X-Timer" hoping to regain market shares, but that didn't save them, nor did all the "cool-swoopy-trick" folders with unique actions and modern materials. They attempted to take market shares from Benchmade, Spyderco, and those other innovators. It didn't work for them. I guess it was too late in the game to play catch up. As for the prices of the "Space Debris", I was appalled when I bought them (usually for $20 or less) and did the reviews. Many had MSRP of $60 or more. Yes, they were produced by CNC, MIM, and laser or fine blanking, and were cheap to produce even with the more expensive materials in some. But they hardly ever sold for MSRP. A retailer might pay Schrade $12-18 for a knife and sell it for $24-36. Just as Schrade did not get the full retail price, neither does Spyderco or Benchmade. But with many areas of retail, unless the retailer can buy the products, add profit, pay all his overhead, he cannot remain in business. Doubling what he paid for a knife often leaves him with 15-20% profit. Any less profit and he might as well close, bank his money and draw interest.

Codger

PS- I am in the traditional camp. Synthetic looking, black metal and plastic knives are a turn off to me. But newer buyers are welcome to them.

 

[sgbeskin]

I like both the traditionals and the modern stuff. I'm nearing 40 years old and I grew up with old Case trappers and the such. My grandfather, who passed away in 2000 at the ripe old age of 85, carried a small Case knife from the early 1950's until he died. I have that knife now. But he was a carpenter and I can guarantee you he used that old pocket knife as hard as any tactical has been used. Part of the bone on the handle is missing and the blades are toothpicks, it shows character and use. He only owned this one knife and he used it to clean quail, open boxes, scribe boards, etc. He was part of the "Greatest Generation" he fought in the Phillipines, earned a Bronze Star, CIB, and several other medals. After he died my daddy gave it to me, told me I'd appreciate it more than my brother. That little red bone Case is more of treasure than any knife in my collection, no matter what the price was on those other knives. I also have my daddy's old Case Trapper. He bought it in 1970 and used it until 2004. I gave him a little Case swayback TB trapper for his birthday and he gave me that old trapper saying he didn't need it anymore.
Now, it was from these two I got my love for the old traditional knives, but my father in law, who is a farmer and a knife fanatic got me into the newer knives. He always has both types on him, usually an ancient Case or a CSB Queen and some other type of fancy tactical. It's kinda funny, because other than his knife choices he is still very old fashioned, cowboy hat, etc..
Me? What have I decided to carry? A compromise between the two. I carry a custom made knife by a local knife maker named Mike Sanders. Micarta handles, liner lock, clip point blade, good ol' carbon steel blade!

 

[Azis]

Jackknife that was a great post. To me the point on cost was more important than the style and based on what he stated the cost should be less.

Some of the tactical knives can be driven through a car door but I have not found the need to do that to often, however I have found the need to cut something to be a fairly regular occurrence.

 

[Karl5]

Yes they are but nowadays they come in small sizes too, here's a picture of my small one, about 3 1/2 inches closed, with a pen and a 2AA LED Maglite for size comparison.

Luis


Click to enlarge

Hey, that they're also coming in smaller sizes is new to me.
In that case, I think it's time for me to get a Navaja.

/ Karl

 

[SilverFoxKnows]

I love the look of traditionals. I like how their thin blades cut. I like that they don't freak people out like a black 4" blade. But I lost a very nice slip joint because it fell out of my pocket. Now I'm afraid to carry my other nice one. So I'm rotating a SOG and a pair of Spydercos. I haven't given up on the tradtionals, I just need to find the right pattern/ sheath combo.

Frank

 

[Eric J]

I love the traditional patterns. I've lost interest in tactical knives. I can't get my Cheetah out of the handle with my thumb and that's o.k. with me. I find that I cut less out of desire and more out of necessity with my traditional knives. As a boy, I carried a Schrade Bear Paw and didn't know any better. Now I have a drawer full of latest greatest and am not as happy with them as my Cheetah.

 

[Ironman]

I am with you. i am kinda new to this part of the forum. I have actually pretty much carried tacticals always. Before they were called tactical, I always carried larger locking blades. I always remained attracted to the old style slipjoints though. Then I got a Schrade 897UH and realized I really like using it. I dug out granpas old knives and sometimes carry his Kabar 1097 stockman. Or the old Buck 301. I recently picked up the smaller 1092 Kabar to go with the old 1097. I can see myself really getting into slipjoints. But, i still do not feel comfortable without a tactical (locking) folder or small fixed blade. Most days, I feel a little silly with FOUR knives... Small neck knife (Blackie Collins Buddy Sysytem, The Best!) Slipjoint in pocket. tactical clipped to pocket. (Currently Benchmade Vex, can't say enough good about it!) and of course my leatherman Blast on my belt.

 

[Mongo]

Jackknife, as always a great read... It is very sad that TRUE machinists are disappearing, and there will never be another generation to learn the trade from the true masters. My great uncle is 89 years old now, about two years ago he finished one of his many projects, a brass 1/4 scale model t ford.
He built this car from original ford blueprints. EVERYTHING on the car was as designed i.e, the motor ran, the trans would shift gears, radiator and lights sfunctioned, well you get the pic. Every piece on the car was made by him. In order to make this car he first had to make all the tools by hand. This car took him 14 years to build. The car is now in a museum. Sorry to get off topic

As a proud owner of a 1917 Model-T touring, I'd dearly love to see some pics of your Great Uncle's 1/4 scale T. PLEASE post some!

Back on topic: I like and carry both. Right now and today, I am carrying a SAK Huntsman and my new gunshow find... a Ka-bar stag stockman, and a Camillus Cuda Dominator. I ALWAYS have the SAK on me, and some other kind of bigger knife... whether it's a "tactical" folder, such as my Dominator, CUDA Maxx 5.5, Spyderco Chinook II, Spyderco Mas Ayoob, or one of quite a few fixed blades... a Bark River Sandstorm-A the most frequent. I find the traditional to be more sheeple friendly, and the tactical doesn't see much public daylight.

 

[sm2]

jacknife's post number 6 - expresses my feelings, observations and experiences very well.

I grew up apprenticing in a business at a young age, started out sweeping floors.
I had to learn to use hand tools, and though Dremels were not even around, we did have Foredom Flexshafts, and Baldor Buffing machines.

I was not allowed to use powered tools until I learned to use hand tools.

I learned to polish by hand - one cannot properly learn on a crutch, so learn by hand - and by doing so when using a powered tool , one can better use and appreciate the tool for task.

Never used a Tactical knife until some years ago - few years before I turned 50.

Asked to test and evaluate, "get into the modern age" and "we have indoor plumbing now".

I do not own a TacTickle knife - don't want one.

On another forum I often refer to my Mentors & Elders, and cite many lessons they passed to me, and I pass forward as one is supposed to do.

One cannot buy skill and targets - Mentors

Saw too many new folks come up and "try" to buy skill with razzle-dazzle tools...powered tools.
Saw too many folks try to learn to buy and skill and targets buying new shotguns...they still cannot hit the inside of 55 gal drum standing in it - no matter how much they spend on razzle-dazzle shotguns.

How raised - what you do.

Right partial to Case Yellow Handled knives with CV blades.
Barehead Trapper in my pocket [31048 CV] proven and continues to work.

Then again I still believe in Old Hickory Carbon Steel knives as well.

Gimme a quality slip-joint / pocketknife, carbon steel, 1095, CV blades and good to go. Done it too many years.
Gimme a Norton India stone, and by freehand, I can keep it maintained.
Not that won't use the leather belt I am wearing, or a scrap of cardboard to strop if need.


Gimme a bone stock Gov't Model of 1911 with USGI / Colt 7 round mags.
Partial to OLDer K frames too.

Once again, it is the man, rather than the gun, that matters. -_Cooper's Commentaries_, April 2003

Been reading for some time, just decided to post. Thanks for having me.

Regards,

Steve

 

[Eric J]

How raised-what you do. My wife and I were just having this discussion throughout our vacation. We are both teachers and how you are raised has the most impact on what you do and will do. Great Steve!

 

[rebeltf]

Like many of you I have found myself drifting back to the more traditional style of pocket knives over the last few years , maybe it's because I'm getting older , maybe I'm trying to hold onto 'yesteryear' a little longer.

In the day of Myspace and the iPod , automatic everything and Tevo - it is nice to be able to harken back to a day when life was simpler and one's pocket tool was something that could be a pleaseant topic of conversation over a cup of coffee.

Dont get me wrong , I work on computer systems for a living , my apartment is full of all sorts of electronic gadegtry from MP3 players to servers and music equipment , I do enjoy today's technology but I also enjoy the feeling of a well made knife with old school materials.

At the same time I can also enjoy something along the lines of a Strider.

It is all personal preference and opinion.
Thankfully our knife world is big enough so that one can buy/carry/collect whatever type of knife he/she likes to , providing you dont live in certain countries that inhibit personal freedom

Bottom line......... I'm as pleased with Grandpa's Camillus as I am with Kershaw's Scallion ( maybe not the best examples but, the point is made)

 

[bellcharteroak]

Well, I'll be dammned. I thought I was the only crank with a pile of slippies sitting in the same safe with the tactical folders I've flirted with. It sort of feels like cheating on your wife with a younger woman.

But you know, I run hot and cold for the tactical knives, especially the liners. Generally they're left in their boxes on a shelf. I prefer a good lockback in my pocket most often. I suspect like many of you, I own a fair number of knives, fixed and folders, but carry one or two most often. They are traditional designs, not particularly large or menacing in appearance.

But for pure admiration, as the youngsters say, "slippies are the joint".