Trailmaster vs. Battle Mistress cont.

[RUDY]

This came from Dr. Ron Hood's new forums which can be found as www.survival.com.

I used both the BM adn the CSTM extensively, both in the mountains adn Jungle.

I wrote the first published article on INFI steel (see my web site). IT is incredible stuff, if you can get one of teh blades made of it.

I took video of teh BM adn the CS. under jungle conditons and it was easy to notice that the CS rusts and discolors easily. There is also a profoundly obvious warning to this effect on teh knife when you get it. Teh INFI would rust but in a strange way. teh rust could be removed with teh wipe of a thumb. Edge retention was great on both blades tho I BELIEVE the INFI was better over all.

Performance wise tehy boht outperformed several other bowie style blades we brought along teh first trip (Gerber, Ontario,etc.).I presented the last the TM to a local indian Apu last year adn when we returned this year the blade was early black from discoloratio but it was clearly his favorite blade. This blade is used daily in umimagiable ways adn still looks good

These are field experiences adn were not intended to be ofgective teste of either blade. tEh TM is and excellent knife adn I would have no hesitation at all in recommending it to someone. It is comfortable, well balanced adn druable. Teh BM SEEMED to hold a better edge but its (TM's) was never tested in teh extreme way I tested for the article.

Not a definite answer but it definitely helps.

Dr. Hood will come to the forums some time this week and respond to any qestions you have considering his statements if you wish to post them here.

thanks and take care
collin



[This message has been edited by RUDY (edited 16 May 1999).]

 

[Dannyc]

Hi Rudy!

Where can one find this article? I tried searching www.survival.com, but came up empty.

Anyway, if Dr. Hood will be coming over the forums, I'm sure a lot of people would be pretty excited as I am.

Thanks for the great info!

Dan

 

[RUDY]

DannyC,go to the forums. He posted it in response to a question I asked.

take care
collin

 

[Doc Ron]

Hi folks,

Good to see this controversy is still raging!

If you want to see the original evaluation go to http://www.survival.com/mistress.htm
You can also find it through the library. It is close to the top.

If you have any specifics I can help with, let me know. I can only give you my opinion with respect to INFI, Carbon V and cobalt (Talonite and Dendretic cobalt). I've used INFI for nearly two years and CV for about as long.

Ron

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I am rather surprised at the following statement from Ron Hood :

Edge retention was great on both blades tho I BELIEVE the INFI was better over all

This sounds like they are somewhat close. The tests on Busse's site would indicate a *much* greater difference.

Anyway it seem from reading the above quoted by Rudy, that the $350 BM does not offer a significant performance increase over the $170 Carbon V Trailmaster . For over double the price I would have assume that the difference between the two was obvious and that they were not in the same class.

Doc Ron, if you are Ron Hood, could you comment on your personal blade designs? For example the Nordooh :

Why the sabre grind instead of flat or convex. Why a Tanto instead of a drop, spear or clip point? And why A2 for the steel?

-Cliff

 

[Doc Ron]

Hi Cliff,

Let's get something straight. I'm not going to bash Busse or CS. As I said, I'll share my experiences.

I'll answer your questions in two parts.

My statement dealt with edge retention only. It did not refer to other characteristics such as ductility or the ability to withstand extreme abuse.

The jungle environment creates unusual challenges for a metal. High heat, humidity, the chemistry of plants and animals that might be cut, all effect the fine cutting edge of the metal. Chopping open a turtle is a dulling experience for ANY steel. It is not like cutting rope. Take a hair shaving edge and whack it into bone...it will turn the edge pretty quickly. No one tests their blade with a reference to how many feet of turtle shell was cut. On this event (I hesitate to call it a test as turtle cutting is not controlled) both steels came out close. Where the Busse would finish a 15 pound turtle and still skin a monkey... the CS would tear the skin of the monkey after finishing the turtle... so what. The machetes the natives use need to be resharpened many times a day yet they seem to survive with them. The indians were uniformly amazed by the edge retention on all of the blades we brought in. Oddly they preferred the 1095 blades because they could be resharpened more easily. That included the CSTM.

The Busse blade was the best by far in the lab tests I conducted. Read the article. Still I say "so what". I use a blade hard, I am more concerned with balance and usability than the esoteric ability of a blade to bend 80 degrees without breaking. I'd never do that in the field and THAT is where the rubber meets the road. TK will have an article I wrote about Blades of the Amazon... I think it is coming up in the next issue, tho I might be wrong on the timing.


I am ME... just send me some email or check my gernoodle on this page then wander over to my site...

Ron

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ron, when I asked if you were Ron Hood it was not meant to imply that you were someone pretending to be him, but simply I was not sure from your user name if you were Ron Hood.

Let's get something straight. I'm not going to bash Busse or CS.

Where did this come from? I was interested in a direct comparasion, this hardly means you have to bash either knife. Unless two knives are indentical then you will get differences in performance, its this difference that is of interest in deciding which knife to get.

I am more concerned with balance and usability

Was there difference in performance between the BM and the Trailmaster in this respect?

My statement dealt with edge retention only. It did not refer to other characteristics such as ductility or the ability to withstand extreme abuse.

As for my comment about the performance being the same. Your quoted response that Rudy posted does not indicate that you noted a significant increase in performance as if you did I would have assumed you would have mentioned it. If I was in error here I would appreciate any details.

As for the "so what" comments. Well if the BM does not significantly outperform the Trailmaster then the extra $180 is somewhat of a waste now isn't it?

-Cliff



[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 17 May 1999).]

 

[Doc Ron]

Part two,

"For example the Nordooh :
Why the sabre grind instead of flat or convex. Why a Tanto instead of a drop, spear or clip point? And why A2 for the steel?"

I'm pretty pragmatic when it comes to my tools. I chop a lot of wood to make weapons and implements in the field. Any of our videos will show you how much I rely on a big blade to make stuff.

The Sabre grind seems to keep more metal over the edge, thus enhancing the ability of the blade to chop. I said SEEMS. I'm not particular about the grind and almost anything comfortable will satisfy me.

The point design was a weird problem for me. I've always liked any sort of rounded point. Then Martin Cruise (RIP) gave me a 5 inch Tanto in 1095. Once I began to use it I discovered that with the correct grip, the front edge of the point made a fine small knife. It was like having two blades in one. He made me a 10 incher then and with that I discovered I could carve really fine stuff with a BIG blade by choking up on the tip. Hot stuff! I could not use any of the rounder designs in the same way with the same predictable accuracy. Lynn T. gave me a couple of his Tanto blades and I was a convert.

For my style of whittling, the Tanto is great. It's hard to see but the tip on the Nordooh is dropped. This drop helps to improve the ability of the blade to skin large and small game without hitting the gut bag. I skinned two elk, a deer and a bear (and bunches of small game) with that knife this year.

A2 is good and it was available.

BTW Rob Simonich does a fantastic job on all of his stuff.


Hope this helps.

Ron

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ron :

The Sabre grind seems to keep more metal over the edge, thus enhancing the ability of the blade to chop.

How hard is the wood you are normally cutting? I would have assumed that the sabre grind would actually have worse performance becuase of the lower penetration compared to a flat grind, unless the wood is that soft that the flat grind is lodging in it. Do you prefer the v-grind sabre edges or the convex ones?

Regarding tantos :

Once I began to use it I discovered that with the correct grip, the front edge of the point made a fine small knife.

How exactly are you gripping the knife. Is it with a thumb flat against one side and your fingers against the others? You must have a decent grip to maintain that on a big heavy blade.

Have you noticed any strength or penetration advantages to the Tanto point?

About the A2 I was curious as I noted you have used 1084 in the Anaconada. Why the change?

-Cliff

 

[Ralf]

Hi Ron!

Nice to have you here. Just a quick question regarding "The Hood" knife from Busse. Is that project still alive or put to rest? I thought I was on the list for one of those but haven't heard anything from it for a while.

Thanks. Looking forward to your "Kanji" review!

 

[Doc Ron]

Hi Cliff.

It's pretty cool how you can put your quotes into little boxes... Maybe some day I'll try that one.

Meanwhile.

The reason I put that statement about "bashing" into the post was simply to lay a ground rule. I've particpated in a lot of discussions on various topics over the years and proponents like to lure folks into taking sides and in effect "bashing".
I don't want to go there. I respect both Jerry and Lynn for what they've done.

I'm a knife user who spends a lot of time with blade in hand. I really don't want to get into nuances of design. i.e. edge geometry. I will answer your question with regard to woods. I cut (chop) Oak, Manzanita,Madera Dura as well as willow and and cottonwood. The Nordooh cuts equally well in all types. A cross section of the blade reveals something like a standard ax. It throws chip just fine. It's in the technique, not the shape.

As far as balance and usability is concerned, I prefer the Busse tho' some folk might like another handle shape more. It really is like arguing about cars. If you have the money, get the Busse. If you don't you'll be just fine with the CS. Frankly, if I had to buy the blade as a blade to use in the jungle I'd have a tough time making the decision as a lot of blades are pilfered in South America. Adds a strange dimension to the problem of choice.

I have to return some phone calls , I'll finish this is a little while.

Ron

 

[Dannyc]

Hey Doc! Nice to see you around finally!

Just wanted to say thanks for being impartial to both parties. It's rare to see that these days, as both camps have their own converts.

Regards,

Dan

 

[donovan]

"BTW Rob Simonich does a fantastic job on all of his stuff."

Would you please stop saying that, Ron. The wait for Rob's knives has gone from "Oh, O.K." to "Say What!!". I told Rob that I was going to blame you if my wife didn't get her Christmas present this year because of the back-log. Remember: Silence is Golden.

Nice to have you posting, though.

Jack

 

[tknife]

Collin- great thread! And it's great to have Ron in here too. I have been a fan of his videos for a while now, and bought several blades based on his using and endorsing them. Having used both a Trailmaster and BM, and in my opinion, the BM edges out the TM in overall performance, chopping, edge holding etc. I was also interested to read that the strange rusting on the BM can wipe off with a finger! Very cool.

 

[Doc Ron]

Hi Jack and Dan!

I apologize for mentioning R.S. :>)

The problem many folks folks face is the wait time. Go through soul searching, "honey cani's" and other mind wrenching choices only to find out that "ya cant get that in your lifetime". If you want a good knife now, get the CS. If you want to wait a year (some of my students ordered their BM's a year ago and just got them!) get a Busse.

back to the stuff...

I don't really try to penetrate anything other than tin cans so I can't speak to the issue. The last knife fight I was in was back in 84' in Chile. I used a chain...(Manrikigusari) I won. penetrating an Elk hide seems easier with the Tanto. I didn't pressure test the event so the comment is subjective.

About the steel. As I said, under field conditions (non combat) I don't really sweat the differences between regular, properly treated, steels and hyper performance alloys. At my age it's nice to just kick back and sharpen my blade while the studs are wacking wood. 1095 is good and I understand it so I picked it.

Ralf,

The "Hood" blade in INFI is on hold. If I ever hear from Jerry I'll find out if he plans to fill my order. Meanwhile there are five folks who have very valuable knives. Numbered and engraved. If only I had one of those.... grumble, grumble.

Ron

 

[Dannyc]

Hi Ron!

Do you mean the collector's edition? Yeah, that would be cool to own.

Stop grumbling, hahahahah..

Your point has been taken, and digested accordingly. You're right in that if time is of no essence to you, then the wait for a Busse BM is well worth it.
I'm planning to get a CSTM, and was just waiting for some major comparison tests to make sure I'm making the right decision in doing so. If ever you have another "field trip", you can probably put them both to a more rigorous and realistic test, just for the sake of knowledge, so to speak.

Otherwise, I'll just take your word for it.

Anybody who eats grubs or turtles is a man of his word.. lol..

just kidding!

Glad you're enjoying the forums as well, you're a sight for sore eyes.

Best regards,

Dan

 

[Rob Simonich]

Hello all, good to see you over here Ron, and you can mention my name anytime, I have spent some time fabricating some Titanium and Talonite underwear!

Jack and Cliff and all you others that have knives on order, I will know very soon when I will be quitting my full time Gold Mining job and going to knives full time. This will be a very happy time for me, and I have primarily Ron Hood to thank, so Thanks Ron! Hopefully I can get caught up a bit and my current 14 month wait will drop considerably!

I am enjoying the discussion, keep it up!

All you guys that wonder why Ron goes with the knive he does better get his videos, every video is full of knife action and you will see a guy that lives by the knife and knows how to use one! "If the steel sings, listen to the song" (quote from Ron Hood to me in 1998)

------------------
www.simonichknives.com

[This message has been edited by Rob Simonich (edited 17 May 1999).]

 

[Dannyc]

LOL... you guys are funny..

Hmm.. I'll check the video out, wonder if they ship international..

Thanks for the input, Rob!

Dan

 

[Doc Ron]

ROB!

"I will know very soon when I will be quitting my full time Gold Mining job and going to knives full time. This will be a very happy time for me"

EXCELLENT! Guess folks found out 'bout you! Now, are you going to tell the Raven story or am I? LOL!


Ron

 

[donovan]

While we have you here, Ron, would you lay out a few parameters on your view of the quintessential wilderness knife. I'm thinking mostly blade size/weight considerations and, as a past and future Montanan, let's consider a northern Rockies scenario. Thanks.

Jack