trends

D

Dan Zawacki

Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
366
I am noticing a trend that I would like to comment on. I don't think that I am unique in noticing this, but I do think that I have something that is perhaps a little different to say about it, and I was hoping to engender some discussion.

As has already been pointed out, there seems to be a relatively large influx of new blood in the knifemaking arena. I'm cool with that, insofar as we all start somewhere, and for most of us newer folk, the internet is where we tend to get our appetite wet.

Of course, there's the series of issues that has already been hashed out ad nauseum over good vs bad manners in newbie posting. Things like asking for information that is already at your fingertips in the stickies, or charging more than some think we aught. That is not the issue I wish to address here, and I hope and pray that any respondants to this thread will have the decorum to leave those sorts of discussions out of this one. They may be important in and of themselves, but they are not really necessary in this discussion.

However, quite often I see a new maker say something akin to "I want to make a knife and...". What comes after the and is usually a description of the materials and methods they have put together on the limited expertise they have at their disposal.

The response is universally, without fail in the following vein:

=>Fill out your profile, so we know if you maybe live next door to an experienced smith.
=> Buy some good steel from Aldo, Kelly Cupples, or another known source.
=> Read all of the stickies and follow the links
=> If you're using wood for the handle, have it stabelized
=> Be sure to sand / polish following reccomended procedures
=> Heat treat in XYZ fashion, or send it out for professional HT.
and so on and so forth.

Don't get me wrong. All of the above is sound advice, and will certainly go a very long way towards helping a new maker develop his or her potential in what has got to be the simplest and most efficient manner available.

However, I wonder at how many people we drive away with all of this well meaning advice. When I read a new member's post that starts with "I want to make a knife" the thing that sticks out most to me is "A" meaning singular, one, not bunches, not scores, not even two. The post almost never starts with "I want to learn to make knives", or "I want to become a knifemaker", or even "I want to become a high dollar master bladesmith". It's "I want to make -A- knife".

And so, I get to wondering if we, in our well intentioned responses, by offering scads and scads of great advice, aren't makng what should be a simple weekend project out to be far more than it should.

Perhaps we should take a few moments out to ascertain the intent and interest level of our audience? Understanding the difference between "I want to make a knife" and "I want to learn to make quality knives" could go a long way towards directing an appropriate response.
 
As one of those newbies posting the very type of threads you've mentioned, I can offer my opinion - I don't mind the advice because I came here knowing absolutely nothing. I do know where you're coming from though, because I'm a member of many other forums where I actually do have some know-how and I see the exact same types of answers and think the same thing you're saying. I know that I, personally, am an obsessive freak and never do anything "a little". I go all out in everything I do. BUT, there probably are a lot of people who do just want to make A knife. However, that's not me, and I do appreciate all the advice. Now, a year from now, I'll probably get a little tired of the "don't use mild steel" type answers when I'm asking about what makes good stock.

Anyway, let's see what the other noobs think.
 
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Dan I see your point... but let me say that part of the reason we give that info is on some level it is a weeding out process... most folks here believe if a job is worth doing it's worth doing right. and while yes you can make a servicable knife out of a file, a BBQ and atf to quench, that knife will probably be on par with a Bud K pakistan throw away.
not anywhere close to the steels full potential. So when someone in the know, asks the noob "who told you how to do this?" and he reply's "Oh bladsmiths on bladeforums... now we have a bad name... see the viscious circle this can cuase? But if we tell them the proper way and then they go ahead and make the econoknife and see it sucks and when someone in the know asks them again "Who told you how to do this? What? the internet?... no this is how it shouldhave been done...", and it mirrors what we're preaching it becomes a win for us and the noob. becuase he'll come back and say Oh the guys on BF said the samething. you did" And hopefully he will stay at it and make one the right way.

Jason
 
Dan I think I am on the same page as you. The shear numbers of people drawn to this page is just amazing. Bladeforums knifemaker Q&A forum has to be the most happening site of its type. Unfortunately I cant see a good way to tame the problem.

I think though that if you ask "do you want to make one knife or a few?" most guys will say a few. That does not mean they actually will but they may think they want to. Also where does one draw the line? As in its O.K. to make a knife this way once but not twice?
 
I've been coming onto this forum for a couple years. In my brief time here I can't recall this little sub forum going through more self introspections and sandy manginas than we have seen here recently.

I wonder if it is the economy?
 
Dan, you do have some valid points. Maybe some are just wanting to make a single knife for themselves. We have raised the bar pretty high.
I wonder what the materials are and the heat treats were for the knives that sell for a lot of money among collectors today that were made long ago or even in the recent past. Sometimes the heat treat regimens that we prescribe result in a knife that is a few percentage points better then one with a little simpler or less sophisticated treatment. Maybe the difference will never matter.
A lot of us become sensitized to the constant barrage of the same questions posted day after day, week after week, year after year. What ultimately happens is less experienced persons answer these questions as the others are weary of repeating the same thing. But that is maybe who should answer the basic questions and the professionals will step in for the more technical questions.

Alden
 
JasonSCarter said:
Dan I see your point... but let me say that part of the reason we give that info is on some level it is a weeding out process... most folks here believe if a job is worth doing it's worth doing right. and while yes you can make a servicable knife out of a file, a BBQ and atf to quench, that knife will probably be on par with a Bud K pakistan throw away.
not anywhere close to the steels full potential. So when someone in the know, asks the noob "who told you how to do this?" and he reply's "Oh bladsmiths on bladeforums... now we have a bad name... see the viscious circle this can cuase? But if we tell them the proper way and then they go ahead and make the econoknife and see it sucks and when someone in the know asks them again "Who told you how to do this? What? the internet?... no this is how it shouldhave been done...", and it mirrors what we're preaching it becomes a win for us and the noob. becuase he'll come back and say Oh the guys on BF said the samething. you did" And hopefully he will stay at it and make one the right way.

Jason
Click to expand...

Sure I can see your points but I am not sure I completely agree.
Last summer I made a picnic table out of some scraps I had on hand. It lasted the summer but I dont think it will last this summer. I may have to go buy one. The table is a turd but thats OK it served its purpose at least for a while and no one got hurt.

My point is it does not allways have to be the best. As long as we are clear and give them better options and let them decide for themselves.

We need to always give educated advice not absolute direction.
 
Em..... you're surrounded by some damn fine knifemakers in Huntsville, AL.... I'm down near Montgomery. Batsons is in B'ham in 2 weeks... you can buy what you want there and learn a LOT from some of the best.
 
Will Leavitt said:
Em..... you're surrounded by some damn fine knifemakers in Huntsville, AL.... I'm down near Montgomery. Batsons is in B'ham in 2 weeks... you can buy what you want there and learn a LOT from some of the best.
Click to expand...

You're talking to me, right? I don't see any other Huntsvillians in this thread. What is "Batsons"? A knife show?
 
I have been sitting back reading these posts in regards to what people are asking and it makes me wonder a couple of things.
1) people come onto this forum and ask, and ask and ask the same questions, they do not want to put any effort into research into the knife building, they want to be told what to do.
2) Then most of them have the gall to insult the people (teacher) because they do not like the answer.
I am a nebee, when I started, I check out ever library book I could find on the subject, these I might add are free to anyone that wants them. Once that source was finished, I came to this web and read everything i could find in the starting section. I still hadn't decided whether I was going to build one knife or ten.
Once I had gathered that information i came onto this forum to ask questions about things I still did not understand, and was answered in a very informative manner.
I realize that the world in is a rush these days, but there is only so much time these teachers have to spend with us. I would rather spend the time answering or hearing an answer from someone that has some time involved already, than form someone who cannot even take the time to read a bit about knife building. We have a very intelligent information base here and I would hate to think we are going to waste it on dumb questions from people who don't care. Yes they have to start some where, how about on a good book on knife making.
 
Eminart, yeah you... there weren't any Texans in the thread :p

Batson's is a big ABS/AFC hammer in down at Tannehill state park. Look below at the "Batsons Thread". Good chance to see some top makers, their work and learn from them.
 
My first reply to my "stupid" and repetitive noob question was to read the sticky. I did. Lot's of dead links there BTW. Since then, I have made only one knife. I still read here daily without fail.

I think that the whole matter of getting angsty over noob questions is universal from what I can tell from other forums. For instance, I like to go to Las Vegas so I joined the tripadvisor forums (Las Vegas forum). You should see the "best buffet" question alone. It gets asked there at a frequency that would make some of your heads explode. Over and over. There are snarky and rude replies and rants and so on. It's human nature to ask as well as human nature to be annoyed with the same old questions. There are the same frequent posters that have met in person, are long time makers and know each other and then there are the noobs that ask the noob questions and then decide that the vet posters are idiots and decide to tell everyone that and end up banned or raked over the coals.

I'm not here to suggest anything because I understand that I am new to this and I respect my "elders" in the knife making community. Only to advise that any frustration and/or cases of red arse are universal and ubiquitous (hehe that word cost me $2.00 plus the paypal fees). It just happens.

I bought a membership because I realized that this forum is far greater than any single book because it is interactive and FAST with an equal amount of expertise! This inherent quality of the forums gets abused, but not out of animosity. I see it too, and I understand it. Just sayin.:o

BTW, you guys are the best....even when your pissed off! I guess I leave it there. I hope that this was not a rant.
 
Will Leavitt said:
Eminart, yeah you... there weren't any Texans in the thread :p

Batson's is a big ABS/AFC hammer in down at Tannehill state park. Look below at the "Batsons Thread". Good chance to see some top makers, their work and learn from them.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I found the Batsons thread after I posted that. It looks very cool, but I'll be working and won't get to go.


And since we're getting on the subject of noobs asking the same stupid question over and over............. yes, that's what happens. That's actually what internet forums are for. People ask questions because they want responses by people who actually know something and can respond to their specific question rather than just reading countless canned tutorials on the web. I, for example, have read and watched dozens of web pages and videos during the past week since I've gotten this bug. That doesn't stop me from wanting to ask questions here. It doesn't mean you have to answer, or even read those threads. Not everyone is on the same level as the experts. You (whoever is reading this) weren't either when you started. And, if you didn't ask stupid noob questions on an internet forum, it's because you didn't have an internet forum to ask them on at the time. I'll guarantee you asked stupid noob questions to the knifemakers you met at the time. It's the same thing. People like to talk to people. It's not disrespect, or laziness, it's just excitement and enthusiasm. Go easy on us Newbies, we just want to hang around and talk with the experts.
 
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Will Leavitt said:
Eminart, yeah you... there weren't any Texans in the thread :p
Click to expand...
There are now!:D

I think there's 3 different types of new posters:

Those who want to make knives for a living
Those who want to make a single knife for whatever reason
Those who are interested in a new hobby but want to know what they're getting into

I'm in the third group and I think the second and third groups will have a lot of overlap. Some may want to make a single knife but find out they enjoy it and end up with a new hobby. Others may want to make many as a hobby only to quit after one or two.
 
Thoughts on Newbie Questions: I became interested in knife making over 10 years ago. Started with kits, then moved on to "handling" custom blades and I am doing stock removal on my own blades. I read everything I can find, watch tutorials and routinely hang out here and other knife forums (of course this is the best!--no pirates on the other forums). I can't explain why others do not read the stickies or use the search (yes, search does work) maybe it is an age thing or a mind set, I don't know. I do know that inspite of all the info out there I am still capable of asking newbie questions that have probably been answered somewhere else, especially if I am trying a new technique or using a new material. I am not trying tyo drive anyone nuts, rather I am coming to you out of respect for your expertise and knowledge.
Maybe set up a question and answer forum with three sections: Newbie, Knifemaker, and Master. Forum members could then ask and answer at the level that best describes their level of skill. That way if a newbie that wants to make "A" knife and has a question, myself or someone like me could get involved and help out. This would leave more original and serious questions for the Master level and members like Kevin, Ed or Stacy. Just an idea.

Kevin
 
i think this sight is awsome. tons of info and great guys. thats why i spent the money and paid for a membership. i wanted to support what was going on here. the next day people started complaining about us newbies. it kind of sucks to be a second class citizen sometimes. but hey life is tuff get over it. i dont care how nasty some folks get on here about us newbies i want the information and i am willing to deal with what i have to get it.

i had a plan to use a galvanized pipe for a small forge. i thought i had a plan that would make it safe. it wasnt going to work and if Will Leavitt hadnt busted my chops over it i could have poisoned myself. thanks again Will!

but when i posted about making a small forge out of a soup can because i had a weekend off and could come up with a can and a tub of refractory cemement you would have thought that i was a terrorist or something. the only thing people could say was "i needed a coffee can". my soup can worked fine got my steel a nice bright orange. is a coffee can going to do much more than that? why is it wrong to experiment? i'm sorry but just because it isnt in the 50 dollar knife shop doesnt mean it wont work.

and a couple last things. i appreciate the advice i really do, but sometimes questions dont really get answered but yet there is a thread about how us idiot newbies dont read all the way through the threads. sometimes you "pros" dont read all the way either.

i'm kind of getting sick of the newbie bashing on here.

oh and for the record the search function isnt available unless you pay so isnt some what oxy moronic to tell people to do a search when they have no clue as to how?

oh and my spelling sucks..... doesnt make me stupid.... get over it.

jake
 
I don't think for a moment that anyone that wanted to make a knife would be dissuaded by these forums, Dan. You and I certainly haven't managed to be discouraged in the time we've spent here, have we? Maybe the ones never heard from again weren't meant to be heard from again, and really didn't have what drove us to where we are.
 
strahd71 said:
oh and for the record the search function isnt available unless you pay so isnt some what oxy moronic to tell people to do a search when they have no clue as to how?

oh and my spelling sucks..... doesnt make me stupid.... get over it.
Click to expand...



Hey Jake,

There's a 'cheat' method you can use instead of the pathetically anemic search engine we paid members have access to:

Type whatever it is you wish to search Bladeforums for into google with the suffix "site:bladeforums.com" like this:

heat treat w2 site:bladeforums.com

Works better than the search engine here, for sure!


Also, before you ask those of us - I'll apply me here, as I'll speak for myself - that have been here for a bit to 'get over it' (modifying our own behavior), you think you might be able to reassess your own position before asking me to accept yours? This isn't meant to be incendiary, I'm just not sure I understand where you've come up with such venom? Or maybe you didn't mean it quite the way I took it?
 
Did somebody say Texan???? I'll take number 45 please. Dudes can't we all just get along. I am telling you guys the newbies stickies really need to be updated. It should include a thread on what knifemaking is how not easy it is and how you feeling can get hurt from the critiques. And those that chose to continue will and those that think they want to make knives will think twice. A newbie needs to know that a knife is not easy to make. When I was browsing through the newbies area there were many links that were not woking or had no pics anymore.

I started out not knowing anything, but I had a desire to make knives. I am working on number 9 right now and have no intentions of stopping there no matter how bad my knives may suck. I want to get better.

-frank
 
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