trends

[silver_pilate]

BRRRRRRING IT!! Texans aplenty around here.

--nathan

 

[midnight flyer]

Sure I can see your points but I am not sure I completely agree.
Last summer I made a picnic table out of some scraps I had on hand. It lasted the summer but I dont think it will last this summer. I may have to go buy one. The table is a turd but thats OK it served its purpose at least for a while and no one got hurt.

My point is it does not allways have to be the best. As long as we are clear and give them better options and let them decide for themselves.

We need to always give educated advice not absolute direction.

I think the last part of your post is excellent advice to the posters here, no matter what the subject matter might be.

I may or may not make a knife any time soon. I have made a couple, certainly nothing of note, and like the work of others much more.

But I have two trades of which I have been involved in (read: making a living) since '75. One of them is carpentry/fine woodworking. One of the forums I participate in on a regular basis has a huge cadre of internet educated woodworkers. They believe their actual skill levels are high because they have read books, watched videos, and memorized all manner of methods and procedures. Soon, they think of themselves as experts.

One thing I see here is the same thing I see there, and that was pointed out in Dan's original post; most advice is simply parroted over and over again. Just like on the woodworking and finishing forum, there gets to be a kind of restless, impatient disdain to telling the folks to read the FAQs, DAGS, stickies, etc., and a smarmy, quiet warning on reading up before asking more questions. Only to start a thread later to bitch about how lazy the noobs are.

In the trades for as long as I have been (actually started in '72 part time), I get a tickle out of hearing the same cranky, mean old man tone of voice with "why do those whippersnappers think they will learn this overnight? Why.... I made XXXXX for XXX years before I could do that. And NO ONE showed me.. I figured it out! Brute repetition was my teacher! Kids today want everything right now, and with no effort."

Forums like this that specialize in trades and crafts ARE ALL THE SAME. The same folks and types of folks frequent them. There are a lot of people here that are talented crafts people that have the patience of an oyster. Good people and good teachers. You can spot them a mile away, and there seems to be a lot of them on this site. There actually seems to be a lot of them here.

But others... my personal opinion is that they bury people in factoids and methodology to 1) make themselves feel smarter and more experienced, and 2) to be accepted here as someone "in the know". Kind of a "part of the cool kids club" thing.

I think that many do get chased off because they don't want to follow all the rules and details specified in accepted group parameters.

I wonder how many noobs would stick around and actually feel more encourged if someone said, "For a small utility/shop knife, a small file makes a dandy starter blank. Get a 6" or so american made file, and grind off everything that doesn't look like a knife, being careful not to get the file blank too hot, or discolor the blade. To finish, sand with 120, then 180, then 220. Glue some oversized scales on the blank with JB weld and shape to fit your hand. Sharpen using your preferred method. Make notes on everything you did wrong, and don't do that again. Enjoy your new knife."

BTW, that's exactly how I made my cabinet marking knife.

It wasn't stressful at all. I made that many years ago after reading an article in one of my woodworking magazines about how to make your own high quality marking knives "the old fashioned way".

Robert

 

[scottickes]

This is how I handle a question asked by someone new. I read the thread over and if it's a question that's been asked a million times, I'll reply if I know the answer. If they have already gotten advice, I'll still read through it....and if the answer they received brings up more questions, and I know the answer to those additional questions, I'll reply.

I don't bash a newbie, or at least I don't recall having done that. I wish this forum would have been around years ago when I started. I did most of my learning by trial and error and reading through books at the library and those that I had purchased.

The way I look at it is this...

• Someone new to this has no idea that there are stickies that will answer a lot of their questions.
• When you don't know what you don't know, how can I expect you to ask the right questions. A newbie has to start somewhere, and he/she has to start from his level of knowledge, not mine. Since his knowledge is limited at best, or nonexistent, then I would expect him to ask a question that probably requires that we probe and pry to understand how to help him.
• A new person has no idea that they can use a google search format that was mentioned above to find their answers quickly and easily.
• There are NO stupid questions, when a new person to this forum asks them!!!!
• Someone new to knifemaking doesn't know how difficult it is to make a knife from scratch. They only know that they have a desire to try making one. As we (more experienced makers) get to know them, we'll learn about their level of interest and find out how much help they actually need.
• Newbies have no idea that by filling out their profile they might get hands on help from a knifemaker living near them. If a person is new to knifemaking, how could we expect them to know just how many of us makers are out there. A newbie probably thinks that there aren't very many people making knives, when in reality, I've watched the number of knifemakers out there grow significantly in the past 20 years! A new person has no idea how big the world of knifemakers and knife collectors actually is!

For these reasons, I cut a new maker a LOT OF SLACK! I try to put myself in their shoes, and when I look at it from their point of view, I can see how overwhelming it can be just starting out in this, whether it's a hobby, a one knife thing or in wanting to possibly make it a career.

 

[eminart]

I think the last part of your post is excellent advice to the posters here, no matter what the subject matter might be.

I may or may not make a knife any time soon. I have made a couple, certainly nothing of note, and like the work of others much more.

But I have two trades of which I have been involved in (read: making a living) since '75. One of them is carpentry/fine woodworking. One of the forums I participate in on a regular basis has a huge cadre of internet educated woodworkers. They believe their actual skill levels are high because they have read books, watched videos, and memorized all manner of methods and procedures. Soon, they think of themselves as experts.

One thing I see here is the same thing I see there, and that was pointed out in Dan's original post; most advice is simply parroted over and over again. Just like on the woodworking and finishing forum, there gets to be a kind of restless, impatient disdain to telling the folks to read the FAQs, DAGS, stickies, etc., and a smarmy, quiet warning on reading up before asking more questions. Only to start a thread later to bitch about how lazy the noobs are.

In the trades for as long as I have been (actually started in '72 part time), I get a tickle out of hearing the same cranky, mean old man tone of voice with "why do those whippersnappers think they will learn this overnight? Why.... I made XXXXX for XXX years before I could do that. And NO ONE showed me.. I figured it out! Brute repetition was my teacher! Kids today want everything right now, and with no effort."

Forums like this that specialize in trades and crafts ARE ALL THE SAME. The same folks and types of folks frequent them. There are a lot of people here that are talented crafts people that have the patience of an oyster. Good people and good teachers. You can spot them a mile away, and there seems to be a lot of them on this site. There actually seems to be a lot of them here.

But others... my personal opinion is that they bury people in factoids and methodology to 1) make themselves feel smarter and more experienced, and 2) to be accepted here as someone "in the know". Kind of a "part of the cool kids club" thing.

I think that many do get chased off because they don't want to follow all the rules and details specified in accepted group parameters.

I wonder how many noobs would stick around and actually feel more encourged if someone said, "For a small utility/shop knife, a small file makes a dandy starter blank. Get a 6" or so american made file, and grind off everything that doesn't look like a knife, being careful not to get the file blank too hot, or discolor the blade. To finish, sand with 120, then 180, then 220. Glue some oversized scales on the blank with JB weld and shape to fit your hand. Sharpen using your preferred method. Make notes on everything you did wrong, and don't do that again. Enjoy your new knife."

BTW, that's exactly how I made my cabinet marking knife.

It wasn't stressful at all. I made that many years ago after reading an article in one of my woodworking magazines about how to make your own high quality marking knives "the old fashioned way".

Robert

This is how I handle a question asked by someone new. I read the thread over and if it's a question that's been asked a million times, I'll reply if I know the answer. If they have already gotten advice, I'll still read through it....and if the answer they received brings up more questions, and I know the answer to those additional questions, I'll reply.

I don't bash a newbie, or at least I don't recall having done that. I wish this forum would have been around years ago when I started. I did most of my learning by trial and error and reading through books at the library and those that I had purchased.

The way I look at it is this...

• Someone new to this has no idea that there are stickies that will answer a lot of their questions.
• When you don't know what you don't know, how can I expect you to ask the right questions. A newbie has to start somewhere, and he/she has to start from his level of knowledge, not mine. Since his knowledge is limited at best, or nonexistent, then I would expect him to ask a question that probably requires that we probe and pry to understand how to help him.
• A new person has no idea that they can use a google search format that was mentioned above to find their answers quickly and easily.
• There are NO stupid questions, when a new person to this forum asks them!!!!
• Someone new to knifemaking doesn't know how difficult it is to make a knife from scratch. They only know that they have a desire to try making one. As we (more experienced makers) get to know them, we'll learn about their level of interest and find out how much help they actually need.
• Newbies have no idea that by filling out their profile they might get hands on help from a knifemaker living near them. If a person is new to knifemaking, how could we expect them to know just how many of us makers are out there. A newbie probably thinks that there aren't very many people making knives, when in reality, I've watched the number of knifemakers out there grow significantly in the past 20 years! A new person has no idea how big the world of knifemakers and knife collectors actually is!

For these reasons, I cut a new maker a LOT OF SLACK! I try to put myself in their shoes, and when I look at it from their point of view, I can see how overwhelming it can be just starting out in this, whether it's a hobby, a one knife thing or in wanting to possibly make it a career.

:thumbup::thumbup: Two thumbs up for both of you guys. I frequent a lot of other forums, including photography forums where I am not the newbie. I try to take the same approach that you guys mentioned here - be nice and understand that just because I, who hang around the forum on a daily basis, have seen these questions asked a thousand times doesn't mean that the new guy who just joined has.

 

[michdad]

I have been following this thread, along with another, and would like to offer my thoughts. Sorry for the long post.

My name is Matt, and I would like to learn to make quality, nice looking knives, as a hobby.

A little over a year ago I decided that I wanted to try my hand at actually making a knife. I didn’t have a lot of $ to spend, and wanted a simple first project. $35 later I had a pair of blade blanks and some corian, all from a few hours on e-bay. Didn’t take long to break a piece of corian. I asked a friend, who is an amateur machinist if he had any advice on working corian. He posed the question on a forum he frequents, and one of the answers was to ask on Bladeforums. So I registered. I had never even looked around a forum of any sort before, so I mostly just read.

Some of the first few handle making posts I found were for cord wrap. Impressed, I bought paracord, and did a little reading and went to work. Feeling quite proud of myself, I decided to show one of my 12 year old sons. His immediate reply was that they looked like something made at scout camp. Oh-kay…..talk about brutal honesty! So I humbly thanked him for his honesty, and put my “paracord wrap handled knives” away. Not about to give up, I kept reading and learning , and gained enough knowledge by tax return time that I bought an inexpensive belt grinder, some files, and found a local steel supplier who sells both O-1 and A-2.

I am more of a mechanic than artist, and I just knew that if I kept it simple, I could do this easily. My next lesson learned, is that which might look simple, sometimes isn’t. By this time, I grew frustrated and put the steel away. I started using my grinder and files to learn new ways to grind and sharpen some of the knives I had around the house. And I started reading a lot. Stickies, threads about anything knife making related, links found, anything that might look like it might educate. I read about grinding techniques, heat treating, steel compositions, et all. I still was grinding, just not trying to make a knife. Along the way I started doing some restorations.

Some very important lessons learned:
If I don’t even know the correct questions to ask, answers given just might not be the ones needed.

I can’t despair over spending many hours just trying to contour a blade, when I read about one of the makers turning out 6 or more blades, in an afternoon, that are ready for heat treat.

Throwing lots of $ at knife making don’t make a knife maker. Dues must be paid in the form of time spent and education aquired.

Hot steel and sparks is lots of fun.


Fast forward to now. I might, if I don’t mess them up, have a good start on a couple of blades that might make knives. Still a very long way to go though. I have some steel coming in the mail that will be much better steel for a learner.

I still have those paracord handled knives. Hopefully one day they will remind me of what it took me to learn the “black arts” of knife making. If not, then I’ll get a good chuckle, and remember there are some things that I am not.

Thanks for being such a diverse bunch.

Matt

 

[DustinHall]

Who would want to just make "A" knife?

 

[Dan Zawacki]

Matt, you've got some good mojo there. If a guy like me can stick through it and learn something, then it may be for the best when someone who won't doesn't!

I have to agree with eminart, both Scott and Robert seem to have this helping the new guy thing in perspective.

It just seemed to me that I had seen all of the same points of advice rattled down almost as if in list fashion by different respondants to a new maker's request for direction. I read the thread and the first thing I thought was "great. that's good advice" and then "cool, that's always a good idea" and then "that couldn't hurt either" and after a couple more very reasonable suggestions, I got to thinking "wow, there's a lot of stuff here for a guy who just wants to make a knife!".

Dustinhall, being addicted to the hobby myself, I can certainly understand how it might be difficult to fathom, but I have actually encountered folks who wanted to make a knife, but only one. A buddy of mine wanted to make his own camping knife, and asked me to help him through it. I told him both that my way of doing things isn't necessarily the best way, and also that there are a lot of more qualified people out there. Undaunted, he asked again, and so I walked him through the process.

He's perfectly happy with the knife he made. It cuts, stays sharp, and doesn't fall apart. That's all he wanted. I've invited him ovr for some more forging, and he's responded with a polite no thanks. I invited him over once to help with draw filing, and he laughed at me!

 

[michdad]

Thanks for the compliment Dan. I also agree with Scott and Robert. I do understand at least some of the frustration in your OP. I have to admit, when I started following this thread along with one other, it made me chuckle to see the type of questions asked in new threads appearing right next to this thread. That said, it gives me much pleasure working with my hands, be it either on a grinder or with files, and watching a knife start to take shape.

Matt

 

[69_knives]

Perhaps we should take a few moments out to ascertain the intent and interest level of our audience? Understanding the difference between "I want to make a knife" and "I want to learn to make quality knives" could go a long way towards directing an appropriate response.

Why bother starting to make knives if you don't eventually want to learn how to make a quality product?

There's a story about the pre-med student complaining to his professor about why he had to take physics to become a doctor. The prof told him it was so that idiots don't become doctors.

From personal experience, Sometimes one needs to be reminded that Google exists and pretty much any information that one could ask for is already at one's fingertips. I know I'm guilty of coming here and asking a question that I eventually ended up searching for and found the answer.

A lot of this new generation of youngin's is too accustomed to being handed everything on a silver platter and being waited on hand and foot while they play x-box. Finding out that their mothers coddling doesn't exist in the world outside their bedroom is maybe too harsh of a reality and if that's the case then so be it; let their mothers help them make a knife.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I do believe that most would like to see as many seasoned professionals as possible giving advice here. If I want to check out golfing for a weekend hobby I would still jump at the chance to have Tiger Woods give me some tips over my best friend Joe who has just been playing for a year. Your friend Joe may be your best bet for drinking a six pack shooting the back nine and then going fishing, since Tiger probably forgot how to half assed putter around just for jokes long ago and it would be awful hard to get anything but the best on shooting like a pro from him. If given an opportunity to ask Tiger Woods anything about golf are you going to ask him how to beat the windmill on hole 5 at Marv’s Putt-Putt World?

I have never met more neurotic perfectionists than top level professional knifemakers, they have just plain forgot how to half-ass it. The concept of making for fun even one knife with gaps that only hold an edge for while, is not only beyond their capability anymore, it is beyond their comprehension. The strength of this place is that you get an opportunity to talk to people who eat, breath and live knifemaking, people for whom “good enough” is almost never good enough. Asking them to dumb down the best advice they have to make it more understandable shouldn’t be a problem (it is actually a quick way to weed out the pretentious parrots from the guys who really understand the stuff), but asking them to advise a person on how to make a lesser knife is most likely beyond their ability to stomach, and rightfully so. If you ask a serious long time knifemaker how to make “a” knife he will assume that you want to make it the best you possibly can, he knows no other way, thus he will tell you how to do that even if it means advising better materials and equipment than you currently have.

Now civility knows no experience or skill level so there is no reason for anybody to belittle the person for not starting out with the same resources. The good veteran forumite will ascertain the tools and materials available and gear their response accordingly.

Also let us not forget the wide diversity of posters we have here, we have advanced makers, mid-level makers and beginners. If the thing works right, and the guy wanting to make “a” knife can’t handle the advanced input, he can get plenty of suggestions from folks closer to his experience level. Why do we so often forget that we all have choices here? We can choose not to read unwanted advice; we can choose not to participate in threads that are out of our areas of expertise. How to make “a” knife from a lawnmower blade is out of my area of expertise, I honestly don’t know how to do it nor do I ever want to learn, thus I choose not to participate in a discussion that I have nothing to contribute to or gain from, and my input would only add to the confusion of a situation I do not understand.

In writing this I have realized that there are many opportunities for miscommunication here. There are people who must have all the “ites” inside the blade in order, with the edge geometry measured within .001”, Rockwell within .5 points of 60HRC. A new guy will not understand where they are coming from at all. Then you will have guys who only want to make one knife from a railroad spike and then move on to fly tying next weekend, if the advanced knifemakers just don’t comprehend this why can’t we cut them the same slack as the first guy since, I can assure you, it is just as incomprehensible to their mindset.

On referring new makers to the stickies, it is very necessary for the mental health of your veteran posters. Over the years I have developed a very good mental discipline to type the same detailed response again and again without climbing the walls but even I feel the strain when finding the same question needing the exact same answer just two posts down. It is the tedium of retyping the same posts ad nauseum that drives most experienced posters off the boards (and up the wall) eventually. Stickies are the best and only defense we have against this maddening problem, after all isn’t this why mankind developed books and libraries over oral traditions? If you rely solely on a few guys to tell the same story around the campfire, when you lose those guys you lose it all!

 

[Mark Redmon]

A lot of this new generation of youngin's is too accustomed to being handed everything on a silver platter and being waited on hand and foot while they play x-box. Finding out that their mothers coddling doesn't exist in the world outside their bedroom is maybe too harsh of a reality and if that's the case then so be it; let their mothers help them make a knife.

I tend to agree with you... after working in IT for close to 15 years, I've come to resent some aspects of technology. I hate seeing "kids" thumbing away at their text messages, and other (imo) impersonal social behaviors. There seems to be the attitude of "Why should I have to KNOW anything when I can just look it up, or have someine else tell me". Sure, this is fine for trivia and bar bets, but I really feel it is detraction from the intellect of younger generations. The occasional thread asking where to buy handle material tends to bother me... seriously.. GOOGLE IT! I had a pretty good idea where to get materials and stated my first few knives long before I ever found BFC. Granted, the majority of those became bucket fodder, but I at least realized they were bad. I did my share of reading and researching, but I would inevitably run in to a situation that was beyond my limited knowledge. It was certainly that type of search that lead me here initially. Once I found bladeforums, I saw the quality of handmade knives in the Gallery and for sale sections. That, more than anything, fueled my interest in improving my skills. There are some fantastic makers here, and that alone has been my sole motivation for trying to improve my skills. Not to make a buck or have bragging rights, but simply to make a knife I could be proud of... And yes, I'm still working on the last aspect.

-Mark

 

[michdad]

In my long winded post above, I used the word "educate". I said that to tell this.

Last night I was working on a large cleaver I am restoring. The piece was warped from the butt to the tip by over 1/16". I got it straight to within just a few thousandths with the confidence that not only did I not deterioriate the integrity of the steel due to stressing it via cold working, I also did at least did no harm if not further enhance any properties by the way I heated and let it cool, while I was straightening.

I just might have graduated to some level above that of "wannabe", or even just above "newb"!

I have done this by using using much of the learning resources available to me, and not by having someone else just tell me what to do and how to do it. I like to play with steel cutting implements of destruction, knives in particular, and am proud to say that I am getting better at it.

Matt

 

[midnight flyer]

Why bother starting to make knives if you don't eventually want to learn how to make a quality product?

I agree. Exploring one's potential, or experimental behavior can lead to unexpected results. Better to stay in your comfort zone and not try anything new. That way you are never at risk of embarrassment for your efforts and never worry about that nagging feeling of finding something that you might truly love to do. Expanding horizons can be dangerous.

I used to teach woodturning to retirees. They NEVER wanted to learn to be artists, they just wanted to have fun and turn out a product THEY could be proud of. I had a lot of fun teaching those old farts. They had been harnessed to a family and office so long that woodturning was like a breath of fresh air. Many had never even worked with their hands besides the normal mundane home repair chores.

I find something nice to say about every single one of their projects, even if it is just an enthusiastic "now that's an interesting shape!". My last instruction demo for the woodturning club I got a standing ovation from a group of men that average about 67 years on this planet. I never run out of patience with those guys because they appreciate the time I spend with them. Strangely to me, some don't respond to the written word well. They "get it" immediately if someone can explain it to them, but the don't understand things if they are simply handed a wad of papers or a book with explanations.

From personal experience, Sometimes one needs to be reminded that Google exists and pretty much any information that one could ask for is already at one's fingertips. I know I'm guilty of coming here and asking a question that I eventually ended up searching for and found the answer.

Hmmm.... so you chastise those for doing the same thing you do?

A lot of this new generation of youngin's is too accustomed to being handed everything on a silver platter and being waited on hand and foot while they play x-box. Finding out that their mothers coddling doesn't exist in the world outside their bedroom is maybe too harsh of a reality and if that's the case then so be it; let their mothers help them make a knife.

So what generation ruined "A lot" of this new generation? Yours? Your kids? Did your generation give their kids the tools needed to raise their own children? When you indict a generation, you must remember that any generation is the product of its predecessors.

This is all academic crap anyway.

People should treat each other with respect, regardless.

No one's opinion is so important that we all can't live without it.

This always comes up on every forum covering any subject.

For those irritated by questions they deem too pedantic, the solution is easy:

:thumbup: Remember, they weren't asking just you. You don't owe the questioner anything. Don't respond to anything you don't want to. They probably won't miss your input...

:thumbup: Self edit. This is important, not only as a time saver, but as a mental health issue. Only read the subjects you are interested in, and only respond to the ones you want to. Your blood pressure will go down many points since you won't be doing anything too unpleasant.

:thumbup: You aren't paid to do this. It isn't a responsibility. When you find yourself getting pissed off at reading posts by those that are not as far along in the craft, don't have the resources or understand how to search correctly, go have a beer instead! It will be like screwing off at work!

If you are honestly trying to help folks and you get a nose full of the same old stuff, read Mr. Cashmen's post. Good stuff, all of it. It is a great perspective. The stickies are great! How many folks simply don't know they even exist?
A simple question answered by a simple answer is a very tidy way to get someone on the right track. Participating in several forums, I can tell you (believe it or not... there are others...) that not all forums are set up the same way. MOST are significantly less sophisticated in managing their information.

The only thing I would add to it is that from time to time, take a break from the forum. If you don't feel like instructing the newer guys or taking their questions, someone around here always seems to. There is a huge talent pool here, and not everyone is in the same mental state as you might be when reading.

As always... just my 0.02.

OK... maybe this time it was 0.05.


Robert

 

[sunshadow]

Dan, (back to the OP)
I remember a couple of Ashokan's ago you wanted to learn *about* knives, you weren't necessarily ready to make one (if I remember correctly) You started one with some excellent blade steel, and some guidance, with the idea that you'd come back the following year with that *one* finished. If I remember you came back with 3 nice looking knives, and helped pass the passion forward. If we give someone the knowlege and resources to make one knife well, 90+ percent will follow it up with a continuously improving string of knives. I'll risk losing the 10 percent by giving them long term good information rather than shortchange the 90 percent who end up beginning a second blade

YMMV

-Page

 

[69_knives]

Hmmm.... so you chastise those for doing the same thing you do?

Well, If I can chastise myself for it, why the hell not?

So what generation ruined "A lot" of this new generation? Yours? Your kids? Did your generation give their kids the tools needed to raise their own children? When you indict a generation, you must remember that any generation is the product of its predecessors.

Actually, I blame the NWO for most of the worlds problems but that is a topic for another forum. The people who profit from the sale of sugar, violence, sexual inuendo and mind numbing video games and TV to children should all be fed to the sharks in the pacific. While they're at it, throw in the people that profit from selling weapons to both sides of a war for good measure. After that, we can start on the central bankers that have enslaved populations around the world with tyranny and interest tacked onto every dollar that is printed from worthless paper and ink.