Tripple quench, once and for all. Maybe

DaQo'tah Forge said:
kevin...


Good post, thanyou for the answer,,,,it does help me a lot.

However there was one of your paragraphs that I didnt actually understand, and it's kinda key to the whole post.

Could you break down this paragraph into smaller words,,,,,real small words....

so I can look at the tools I got, and see how to put what you are talking about into play?

(here is the part I didnt catch)
_______________________________


"If one keeps the temp below the grain growth point and then cools the steel to a point at which austenite decomposes into a more stable structure, it will lock in the previous austenite grain boundaries with the new microstructure. Any new structures will be in alpha iron (BCC) which is more expansive, this will cause strain energy and many places of irregularity to drive fresh nucleation on the next heat. So if the process is repeated even finer grains can be achieved by working within that previous framework."
_________________________________

Sorry for the alpha iron thing, I get carried away. Most folks know that steel expands as it is heated (this is simple thermal expansion), but what some may not be aware of is that it contracts at the point of recrystalization. This is because of the way the atoms are stacked at room temperature versus higher temperatures. All metals have a specific arrangement to the way the atoms are stacked that contributes to its characteristics. We refer to this stacking by labels given to its unit cell or the smallest part of the repeating pattern. In iron, at room temperature, the unit cell is body centered cubic (BCC)like this:

BCC.jpg



This is called alpha iron.

When we heat the alpha iron to it critical temperature the atoms make a shift in their configuration to face centered cubic (FCC) like this:

FCC.jpg


This is called Gamma iron. This shift opens up new spaces for carbon atoms to occupy allowing gamma iron to hold much more carbon in solution. Carbon in a solution of gamma iron is what we call austenite.

Back to my original point, Gamma iron (FCC) also happens to be a more efficient stacking so it wastes less space and the steel will contract. Well the exact opposite happens when things are cooled. Austenite (FCC) is not stable at lower temperatures so when it is cooled it will decompose into a more stable structure (pearlite, martensite or bainite) that is BCC. Body centered cubic is less efficient in its stacking so it takes up more space and whenever this decomposition occurs there will be expansion. Pearlite is what is formed if austenite is allowed to decompose at temperatures above 900F to 1000F (this varies greatly, depending upon the steel). Bainite is what will form if the austenite is held between 450F and 900F (again this is dependant upon the steel). If one can cool things fast enough to halt the decomposition until below 450F. martensite will form. Martensite has a different makeup than other structures because you have forced FCC to hang around for a very unnatural amount of time. When the FCC structure finally gives up it has carbon trapped in it preventing the shift to BCC so martensite forms a new highly distorted unit cell known as body centered tetragonal. This is what leads to all the STRAIN and stored energy within hardened steel. It is what causes Japanese swords to curve in the quench, causes brittleness (cracks like stored energy) and other distortion.

So pearlite (air cooling 1084) will create fresh points of nucleation for the next heat, but martensite wins the prize for creating such points.

Another thing to remember, and it is very important for this thread, is that carbon going into solution is a diffusion based process, so the more bunched up and separated the carbon (cementite) is from iron (ferrite) the longer it will take to pull it into solution. In a speroidized condition the carbon is balled up in larger spheroidal cementite nodules. To address that was also mentioned earlier excessive spheroidal type treatments will cause the spheres to be even larger and pull more carbon out of solution and it will take that much longer to get it back into solution. Spheroidal carbides take some of the longest soak times to get proper solution. Coarse pearlite will take a little less time but still longer than fine pearlite (like what you get when you normalize). Making austenite from bainite or martensite takes no time at all because the carbon is already very finely dispersed.

Do you see how what I have outlined here can figure into this whole triple quenching thing?
 
tmickley said:
I can say with a great deal of certainty that these are two books I won't be running out to pick up in the immediate future but they would look good on my bookshelf. My head is still reeling from when Kevin threw Cementite into the mix. No one talks about cementite. It's always austenite, martinsite, avoid the pearlite. Next we'll be throwing bainite around.

Tracy,
Cementite is just one of the basic building blocks of steel so-to-speak. Steel is a combination of iron and carbon. In its softened state, the base is a matrix composed of simple iron molecules (ferrite), in which are suspended molecules of iron carbide (cementite).

By the way, the single best article I have ever read with respect to metallurgical terminology for the uninitiated was in the March 1999 issue of Sword Forum Magazine, by Kevin Cashen. I already had a pretty good handle on things at the time, but was so taken with Kevin's talent in explaining complex technical terms, that I saved a copy on my machine. Now 5 years and 2 PC's later, I still have a copy.

I would advise even those who are experts in the field to take a look at the article. It is loaded with information that is both easy to understand and humorous.

Metallurgical Terms Made Simple

######

[ He comes back and say's ... ]

Well, while I was looking up the link for the article, Kevin was already answering about Cementite. But I still urge you to read the article. It is VERY good.
 
Terry_Dodson said:
Mr. Cashen and mete i really do appreciate you trying to explain the process involved to me. but i was wondering if you could give a step by step example of your opinion including soak times and temps of how to get the best blade i can from 1080, 1095, 5160 and L6 steels? how should we go about getting the steel we order (or salvage) into the best possible starting state, as well as getting it ready for the final quench? I am just curious where there may be differences in how some of us are doing it now.

I regret to say that you are asking for many volumes of information with your request. I strongly suggest borrowing (it can be quite expensive) a copy of “Heat Treater’s Guide” by ASM. It has all the information you could want by the people who make the steel and have thoroughly researched how to get the most out of it.

The best way to have good steel is to start with good steel, so the salvage thing is never an option for me personally. We have thoroughly explored how important the heat treat history is to the steel in this thread so the best way to insure this is to get it fresh. If you buy it from a good source it should come to you in the best condition it could be in for predictable heat treatment, before us bladesmiths proceed to mess it all up ;). Then just go with the heat treat recommended for the given pre-heat treat.
 
primos said:
By the way, the single best article I have ever read with respect to metallurgical terminology for the uninitiated was in the March 1999 issue of Sword Forum Magazine, by Kevin Cashen. I already had a pretty good handle on things at the time, but was so taken with Kevin's talent in explaining complex technical terms, that I saved a copy on my machine. Now 5 years and 2 PC's later, I still have a copy.

I would advise even those who are experts in the field to take a look at the article. It is loaded with information that is both easy to understand and humorous.

Metallurgical Terms Made Simple

######

[ He comes back and say's ... ]

Well, while I was looking up the link for the article, Kevin was already answering about Cementite. But I still urge you to read the article. It is VERY good.

Thank you so much for the kind words Terry, you honor me, I'm blushing now. To be honest now when I look back at that article I find some parts so oversimplified that they could be misleading, but any further reading on the subject should quickly straighten out any of my boo boos. ;)
 
Kevin, we're talking about steel here not rotting fish so I'd like to call it transform rather than decompose !...The learning of any subject involves starting out with the terminology.It's really not that bad, about 10 terms is all. We have the different crystal structures, austenite etc then we have transformation to other structures and of course we have diffusion. We start out with ferrite and cementite, heat it to transform the ferrite to austenite then hold to dissolve the cementite and diffuse the carbon then quench to transform the austenite to martensite ,temper the martensite and we have a hardened blade !! It's easy !!
 
Mark Williams said:
My head hurts.

Mine too. But in the kinda good I've-just-over-exercised-my-brain sort of way. Great info. Thanks Kevin, and all.

Roger
 
Kevin.

Let us consider the posting where you wrote the following:

"To address that was also mentioned earlier excessive spherical type treatments will cause the spheres to be even larger and pull more carbon out of solution and it will take that much longer to get it back into solution."


Now Kevin what I understand from that post, (I pause for everyone to stop laughing)
Is that I need to learn why steel will make these "spheres" that wreak havoc with the carbon, and NEVER DO THAT!

Now I got a forge, and O/A torch, and a heated quench tank with Texaco type 'A' oil in it. I also got a magnet.

I can heat steel until it is non-magnetic, and that's about all I can do.

I can use my torch to heat the steel until it is non-magnetic, or I can heat it within my forge until it is non-magnetic. But that's all I can do. Once I get the steel hot enough that the whole blade is non-magnetic that's about it. Beyond this point, my map says "Dragons be here"

I can heat it longer I guess, and I can heat it hotter and hotter I guess, but once I get the steel to the non-magnetic stage the rest is a shot in the dark at to how hot it is.

Now if I understand your teachings correctly, The results I get from my single heat-treatment quench are determined to a large degree by the way I last heated the steel during the Annealing stage?


So your advice, (given my limited understanding of the world of steel, as well as my limited Heat-treating tools), would be to?
 
mete said:
Kevin, we're talking about steel here not rotting fish so I'd like to call it transform rather than decompose !...


Hehehe :D I actually had a picture of a roadkill in mind as well when it wrote that. For some reason decomposition sounds so much more techinical than decompose :barf: Besides this wouldn't be the first time this thread smelled a little fishy ;) .

I am surprised you decided to pick on this and not get me for continually talking about dissolving extra cementite in austenite and not even mentioning the A3 point. Even though there are plenty of folks who do, I prefer not to think much about hypoeutectoid steels (I know -L6, but .75%C with some alloying to help is still close enough for me) when making knives. Just a matter of taste.

I had a good time over the weekend spending time in this thread, but I have the salts fired up and now I have to put my money where my mouth is and step out to the shop to actually make some austenite (and hopefully some money :( )and then lock that carbon into a body centered tetragonal. And I will be doing it most of the day, if it still didn't all fascinate me it could be a boring afternoon- but is heat treating ever boring?
 
DaQo'tah, you may want to get a cheap temp meter, i got my meter at Harbor Freight on sale for $19.99 (it is normally $39.99), it came with a type K themo couple and reads to 1000 degrees CELCIUS (celcius only). It is Item 37772, Cen-Tech Digial Multimeter, made in China. 1000 degrees celcius is 1832 farenheight. i think it is helping me from overheating my steel now.
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Kevin.

...Now Kevin what I understand from that post, (I pause for everyone to stop laughing)
Is that I need to learn why steel will make these "spheres" that wreak havoc with the carbon, and NEVER DO THAT!...


As I said the salt baths are calling, so I will get back with you tonight. The spheres are nothing to worry about as long as you are aware of them. I purposely make them all the time, I just take care of them when I soak at temperature. You also have less to worry about in this area considering your tools. Precise spheroidizing requires more control than can be easily had with a torch.
 
Daqo'tah, you have what you need for the basics. Stick to the simple steels such as 1084 and 5160. You forge therefore normalize after forging.That gives you pearlitic structure.Now you heat the blade to nonmagnetic, heat the spine and let that heat go to the thinner edge and keep it hot for a few minutes.. That gets you austenite and dissolves the carbide and diffuses carbon. Then you quench and then you temper.Simple. Details ? well once you get to nonmagnetic watch color carefully to maintain that temperature because you don't want to over heat.
 
a few late coments
very intence I was going for pop corn but couldn't leave to get it :)
Industry passing up a buck no way..
Industry will prosper where it can
if it wants to stay here.
if we can get even 100% more out of something someone will capitalize on it for sure some how, if cost efetive...
we have HS drill bits we have cobalt , carbide bits and all have different prices. hey who here makes there own endmills :eek: and why?
if we had a supper dupper new bit that out worked anything else yes someone would have use for it and buy it..
we can get cheap bits that are very cheap because people buy them un-knowing one from the other,,
hey they bank on that..and I mean bank on it. :eek:

all steel is forged,, be it the stock for the stock grinder or the forger re forging it
I also believe if you forge and beat the snott out of it you have to put the snott back into it also,
if there is any left to work with?, sure you're going to have more work to do to it.
,, now I'm not saying it's not done right many time but face it
a few over heats don't help carbon content and unless your up to adding carbon to the steel, which of course can be done
but who is doing it when he knows it was lost because of his forging? or he should know this anyway.
most all of us are using the science put in our hands in the form of steel and and some turn and denounce it?
they put spec's on it because they what to sell more of it, it's not a secret that they want to keep after all there want to sell you more.,
most of us want to be open minded and get out of the box. and too many times take the word of
another,, kind of like that edge packing thing, how many years did that go on and still going on. (I'm ducking here ).
I type to slow for all I have to say,, so I'm off to make a sheath..

But I will say, open minds will go far :) and the one that holler the loudest don't make it so, but it can cause bruises though, but still it don't make it so..
ps: Columbus got lost so he wasn't all that great :D
 
Mark Williams said:
Hey Dan,

Check my new signature line :D
I was going to sig line that one too. We need to start a best quotes of the year contest, just like ugliest knife contest.
 
tmickley said:
I was going to sig line that one too. We need to start a best quotes of the year contest, just like ugliest knife contest.

that would be interesting :) of course I could rephrase that too :D
 
"My reputation is not being helped if every time I post, people go on the defensive and the tension level of the forum rises. I am tired of being dragged into confrontation every time I am tempted into a thread that I feel needs a balancing viewpoint, by now I must be looking like quite the jerk to many on Bladeforums."

Honestly, the more you post, the more I like you and your no b.s. approach to metallurgy. For myself, every time you open your mouth I learn something. I really appreciate your input here and at sword forum.


"Approaching conversations from a logical and analytical perspective has been very successful and friendly on other forums, but seems to get me in trouble here."

I'm going to get in trouble for this, but what the heck. I like your approaches and try to engage them analytically to the extent I am able - but I think there is an emotional factor between varying levels of craftsmen on this forum. I know I have engaged you in some direct critical questioning that may have appeared juvenile, the reason I do it is to elicit your responses - which are extremely informative. As far as directly contradicting or mocking/diminishing the results you've witnessed in your smithy; if I have done this I apologize. I have no business doing that, and neither does any person who cannot make a blade to the level of craftsmanship that Kevin can. IMHO steel speaks louder than words. Now I'm gonna get offline, go out to the forge and put in more steel time.


Tim
 
TimWieneke said:
"... I know I have engaged you in some direct critical questioning that may have appeared juvenile, the reason I do it is to elicit your responses - which are extremely informative. As far as directly contradicting or mocking/diminishing the results you've witnessed in your smithy; if I have done this I apologize...
Tim

Forgive me Tim, although the following was included in a private e-mail to you, I feel strongly enough about it that I would like to share the same points here:

I am sorry to say that we have another disagreement (if there were ever any to begin with). You see I firmly believe that I should be questioned and challenged by anybody who is really thinking about the answers, and that certainly includes you...

..."PhD" or "mastersmith" become a very negative thing when they put the title holder above question. I can be wrong at times myself, and I think folks would be doing me a great dishonor of they blindly took my bad information and put it in their notes with the good stuff, without verification...

Whenever I find a new and interesting concept in my studies I like to find a reference to it in at least 2 other legitimate sources before I consider it solid information. I hope any information you get from me is of great help in your studies, but I will like it even more if you give the the same verification treatment..."

How can it look bad for me to have folks say "Cashen says this, and Bain and Grossman both agree",? (I know- i'm really pressing my luck now;))

I feel I would be quite the hypocrite if I didn't embrace these concepts for myself. I intend nothing that I post on these forums to be the end of peoples search for information. I sincerely hope that it spawns the desire to look into things deeper and inspires proper independant research. That is what I think to be true learning, as opposed to the cheap and easy, and dangerous, route of "Because Mr. (insert favorite bladesmith) said so".

All this metal-head jibberish was greek to me at one time also. I would like to tell you what caused me to crack books that quite honestly intimidated me at first. It was not some guy who gave me good information that I need to give the credit to. It was all the bizare hocus pocus that I have encountered over the years that got me fired up metallurgically. Every time I hear some outrageous claim, it sends me digging through tomes to find the truth, if I can.

Because of this I have likened the guys, who come up with the more "interesting" stuff, to manure spreaders. They spread the BS that fertilizes my mind and spurs my knowledge to grow. :)

This all make me think of thread discussing these very topics on another forum. I will post a link to it but I request that anybody who goes there please look at the dates on the thread. :
Fun Rant Thread
Before anybody even tries to get defensive realize that this thread was written over 4 months ago, I have no crystal ball -honest ;)
 
Kevin,That was fun to reread that thread ! BTW for those who don't know on Swordforum I go by the name Robert C.
 
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