Troubleshooting and the effects of cruising on cognitive abilities.

Kevin, I'll freely admit that the question is beyond the realms of my proper understanding, let alone the answer :o
I'm just posting to ask, (as in "Pretty, pretty please") that if you ever decide to go with solutions (B) or (C) from post#9, can I have some fore-warning please so I can make the journey and hire a truck !? :D
 
Hi Kevin - I actually left out a bit of my post. I was going to point out that Ms is the key to martempering and without that info the process probably wouldn't have been pioneered.

Glad I got the problem right, especially since I'm no scientist. Unfortunately, if I'm reading this correctly, I was wrong about the temp needed in the martemper. Is this the case?
 
Kevin..you speaketh of heresy, don'y you know your inspiration came from vulcan himself!!!!! ;)
 
Whelp, yer erl is jes' too dern hot fer to take the low-sparkin' steel to the hardenin' temp witout lettin' it get all cooled n' sech.
Better'n to use yer old cold erl, n' pull the blade out when it's still smokin' the erl, n' not wet.
 
Many sciences are simply a record of trial and error. While an enterprising young metallurgist could make their own mistakes, and learn from them, it would take that person quite a while.

It reminds me of the quote that "It is a stupid person who learns from HIS OWN mistakes", meaning that it would be considerably smarter to learn from someone else's. Even if someone was equipped to make valuable conclusions from their trials, why spend the time when someone else has already done so?
 
Whelp, yer erl is jes' too dern hot fer to take the low-sparkin' steel to the hardenin' temp witout lettin' it get all cooled n' sech.
Better'n to use yer old cold erl, n' pull the blade out when it's still smokin' the erl, n' not wet.

Doh! Matt I didn't count on a mind like yours when I threw down the gauntlet! Leave it to you to actually do it!:( I owe you a cigar;)
 
All philosophical epiphany's aside... It appears that when metallurgical math and elemental proportion become second nature, the composition of idea and application become a symphony of limitless terrestrial harmony...

Is this the substance of legend?
 
edispilf,
I respectfully ask, what is it that you are smoking? And may I please have some? Seriously though, I was totally on board with you up to "limitless terrestrial harmony".
More broadly, I cannot think that Kevin's drive toward codifying the mysteries of HTing as they specifically apply to blades has, in any way, negatively impacted the current state of knifemaking in general. On the contrary, I firmly believe (that's right -BELIEVE- no studies to back me up here) that his work has likely benefited a large number of makers, particularly in that hard area of specificity. It's not fuzzy and lovey but it works and it's repeatable. I mean, if we discount science, why aren't we quenching blades in the corpses of dead people (besides ethics, morals, etc.)? A blade quenched in the body of a convicted murderer must have a lot of baraka, right? Loads of psychic aggression and so on. Yay for magic swords!
 
This discussion and a couple of others lately just seem a bit heavy handed on my part. This will be a voluminous post but I would like to explain myself and clarify my position on a few things.

I dread the thought of dominating or lording over any forum. Heck, I spend much more time here than a forum that I moderate. I just want to be one of the guys offering sound information and having fun. I don’t care to be anybody’s hero, guru or mentor. This business and our society have too many people wanting to lead others around on a leash, why would I want to be yet another? I would rather cut leashes than hold them myself.

I don’t claim to have all the answers since I can’t even figure out the questions on my own! It is the folks on forums like this, and those who send me e-mails weekly, that pose the questions which allow me to learn in an attempt to provide a semi intelligent answer. The biggest reason I enjoy teaching, lecturing and demonstrating around the country is because of how much more I learn than what I have to offer when doing it!.

I don’t want nor expect credit for any of the metallurgical information I drone on about, most of it was discovered before I was born and I am not into plagiarism. All I did was open some books and read what could be applied to my work; my hope is others will do the same. I have a couple of my own theories I have developed over the years but until I can prove them I don’t care to put out bad information, we already have enough “experts” broadcasting far reaching conclusions based on assumption. And by the way I am not an expert on anything but pissing off my wife.

I don’t believe a reputation or name can support or validate any position, I want the facts to support my positions on which I rest my name and reputation. Much the same way a silly M.S. stamp cannot validate my knives if the knives are not good enough to warrant such a stamp. On a list ranking the worlds best smiths I don’t wish to participate. It seems sophomoric, and as soon as one names the best another person will give a different name for entirely different reasons. I do know that the quickest way for me to be undeserving of anything but the bottom of the list would be for me to try to place myself anywhere on it. I use the title master bladesmith in my advertising because it was given to me by a group of my peers, which I feel is the only way to receive such a title. It can’t be taken or perhaps even knowingly earned, it must be given. A person who assigns it to themselves demonstrates why they may never deserve it.

There have been some who have come right out and taken me to task on disagreements here, I have to say that I have much more respect for them than the lurkers who will bad mouth me any place I am not present to defend myself. I can have a drink with a man who looks me in the eye and says he hates me, I know where he stands. A man who claims to love me to my face and then cuts me down behind my back is someone I don’t want to be around at all, they can’t be trusted.

I do not claim my knives have better heat treatment, are better performance, or greater works of art than all others. To do so would require a level of hubris that is not my style. I am proud of my work the knives are just the product of that work. I insist that every aspect of their creation is the very best I can do or they don’t leave my shop; that is what my conscience requires. It is up to my customers to decide how good my blades are and to brag them up with their own sincere words not the ones I feed them.

I have no problem with guys starting out with old files and leaf springs quenched in Wesson oil because they don’t want to spend a lot on their new hobby. I will be honest and say that I do have a problem with the same guys still doing it 20 years later and charging people $1000 for the knife they are too damned cheap to buy good steel and proper tools for. I do make an exception for the smith who goes for the primitive style and sells it as such, that seems to have an honesty to it that I cannot argue with. But the guy I have no patience for is the one who blindly insists there is no difference from his cheap improvisations and good tools made for the job, because the worst dishonesty is self deception. And I get angry when I hear this fantasy pushed onto others in order for the perpetrator to feel better about themselves. Aside from knifemaking, every craft I have ever been exposed to, the respected names are proud of having the finest tools in their shop and knowing how to use them.

Believe it or not I do not feel that my way is the only way to do things. I do however insist on dealing with reality. I never understood drugs for the same reason, if your reality is so miserable that you need to stupefy your mind rather than face it, why don’t you try putting down the hash pipe and fix your life! For me the challenge of overcoming the harshest reality is far better than the warmest, fuzziest, fantasies, and attempts to feed me a more comfortable version of reality shows a lack of respect for my intelligence. I sincerely feel that telling you edge packing doesn’t work, and why it doesn’t, shows much more respect and concern for you than just letting you go on believing it in order to avoid being seen as a jerk.

It has been said that it appears that I refuse to be wrong. I wished it were that easy, that you could just refuse it! Nobody likes being wrong, and I am wrong all the time, I just prefer not to advertise it; it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence. We learn from our mistakes and then only publicize our successes. Some would say that just sticking to facts is a safe way to always be right, but I disagree. It is more like a chess game to take technical positions online. You place your piece and look at all possible angles to be certain you have your ass covered before taking your fingers from it. But I would rather risk a checkmate on a bad fact than to be so afraid of being wrong that I stick to subjective feelings and opinions to avoid it.

As a rule I will not post in a forum named for another smith, propriety demands that I not pee in another guys sandbox and that may require my compromising the truth in the face of B.S. so the only thing to do is not go there at all. For the same reason I will not have a forum with my name on it, and I hate it when people address whole threads specifically to me. If the message is just for me it can be done with an e-mail, and besides I don’t need any help in building resentment in others on the forums, I do just fine on my own. ;)
 
'Tis an arduous task, choosing to counsel freedom through knowledge, always the most difficult path.
You handle the bumps in the road well. Stay the course.
 
Wow, it seems I've stumbled quite accidentally right into the middle of a pissing match.

Don't get me wrong, pissing matches can be fun and all, but for some reason, I don't think anyone is having much fun in this one.

The only reason, in fact, that I'm posting this at all, is because I'm at least partially convinced that there's a fair number of people who feel much the same way I do, and are either uncomfortable saying so, simply don't want to put their nose in and potentially get it chopped off, or don't want to waste the time getting involved. I don't seem to have any of those problems. Now I may very well not speak for any great majority, and I certainly as hell don't claim nor want to speak for anyone but myself, but I really can't imagine that I'm alone in this viewpoint either.

That all being said, I must confess that it occurs to me that Mr. Tai Goo and Mr. Kevin Cashen don't seem to get along all that well. Now maybe I'm wrong, and they're just throwing friendly banter back and forth, and my own social ineptitude hasn't picked up the old clue by four yet. Given how thoroughly and yet how easily Kevin had me over the table (litterally) with his little stunt at Ashokan '07, that wouldn't be a surprise at all. Alternatively, maybe there's the makings of a real epic rivalry going down. If it's the latter, I gotta say, from the sidelines, that really sucks man!

Y'see one of the biggest things that draws me here, to bladeforums is the open and cordial exchange of information. Even (and in point of fact, especially) when that information comes from divergent perspectives. Sometimes that information is more useful than others, but that, of courrse is the nature of such things. Even if the information seems useless, I tend to file it away in my mind under "neat facts and other useless stuff". Quite often, however, the information is useful, to some degree or another, in helping me to fill in the gaps in my own education. Sometimes, simple "looky wut I made" type threads hide some of the coolest nuggets five or six posts down. other times, threads that look like they're going to be really promising get really, really hairsplitting, and while that can be fascinating, it's practical use becomes secondary.

And then, of course, there's situations like the current mishmash, where I'd be willing to bet that the two notables who seem to be disagreeing the most are likely just speaking such radically different dialects of the same mother tongue that they cannot effectively communicate. Thus, each falls back into his own strong ground, the one philosophy, the other science. While it does appear, from a third person perspective that Tai's motivation may be more ego driven than Kevin's, that does not mean in the least that his overarching point is invalid or less valuable. Sure, he challenges us to step back for awhile, and re-examine the labels and paradigms with which we have constrained ourselves, but there's no real harm in doing so is there? Shit, we may actually learn something about ourselves in the process. Can't have that now can we? And, of course, Kevin is well known for his no nonsense approach to factual, empirical, and methodical approach to the metallurgical aspect of coaxing performance from his work. No harm there either. He's made better knifemakers of a fair good number of us not only by being so free and open with what he knows, but by being ready, willing, and able to be proven wrong publically, at the drop of a pin if the data says so. This challenges us to take a step back, and re-examine what we thought we knew. Wow, didn't I just say that about someone else?

The really disappointing thing is that we have seen so many pages wasted already on what appears to be bad blood between two people who, fundamentally don't have any real disagreement. While I may not have been around for very long, I have been around long enough to see that Tai never, ever even suggest that the results of Kevin's approach are anything but real, or that the knowledge that Kevin has both accumulated, and freely shared to the great benefit of more than a few smiths is anything but valuable. Nor have I seen Kevin even so much as hint that he does not appreciate the artistic part of knifemaking, nor the reverence for tradition, nor even the idea that the knowledge he has shared with so many to their benefit may be limited.

In fact, I have often seen them each pay respect to the very things that the other seems to be advocating, but put them into a thread together, and look out!

Anyhow, now that I've gone and stuck my foot in it, Y'all can go ahead and blow up at me, have a good laugh at my expense, and then we can all go back to being happy little bladesmiths!
 
I guess I had my cranky pants on last night. If I was out of line, I apologize. It was a long day. I, personally, take umbrage at the idea that having a focus on the more technical aspects of knifemaking (or any other craft) in some way detracts from the art of it. If that wasn't where Tai was taking it, then mea maxima culpa. But I have to say that if I am going to pay hundreds of dollars for a beautiful knife then I want to know some quantifiable FACTS about it, e.g. the composition of the steel, the heat treat process, etc. so that I can predict the probable performance of that particular knife under certain conditions. Otherwise it's pointy art, which has value too, but it's not a tool. I like tools. I may even BE a tool. :D And I need to know how far I can expect to push my tools before they push back. On the other hand, if I just wanted precision chemistry and no art I could just wrap duct tape around a planer blade for a handle and that would cut stuff, right? It just bugs the hell out of me to see a false division being made. I think these two "perspectives" are, in fact, inseparable and both necessary to make a good knife. And that's not directed at anybody in particular.
 
I owe you a cigar;)


You owed me a cigar before this!

Besides, any chance to slip into the "Authentic Western Gibberish" mode is no chance to pass up!;)

Dan, you might be spot-on in your review of the circumstances, but I think the only people that would refer to it as a rivalry would be those of us that aren't them!

Without strain in a forum like this, there's no real reason to stop in here. The hard part is not getting sucked in and allowing it to get your goat! (I'm guilty of this, for sure!).
 
Ah, Mr. Rabbitslim... It's only a matter of how far down the rabbit hole we must go to find the balance between numbers and nature. It's a light hearted comical opinion from an artist who makes tools the old way.
As for the smoke... one part water, one part salt, and one part steel (of your choice)... mix thoroughly in a tall rye glass and top with sprig of mint;)
 
I think the only people that would refer to it as a rivalry would be those of us that aren't them!

Of that, Matt, I have no doubt. Speaking as I was, from a third party perspective.

Slim, I'm fairly sure that you're not alone in that position!
 
The old saying that it "takes two to tango" holds true here. There is no rivalry and there is no tango because I, like the rest of us enjoy watching Tai dance on his own, so much so that I prefer to just sit and watch whenever I can. Pissing matches always have splatter and invariably end up with a stiff breeze bringing it all back on yourself, so I just don't do them.

To prove that this is a urine free zone allow me say some good things about Tai. Tai Goo was doing some amazing things with steel before I ground my first file and if I can’t respect that I am a pinhead. There are too many of his designs inspire jealousy in me because I seem unable to tap that same artistic spark that he freely accesses. I love it when artists can make inorganic things look entirely organic, some of Tai’s work looks as if he planted a piece of steel and a cool knife grew out of the ground. Doing things primitive or neo-tribal has a great appeal to me and I respect it, I even dabble with making primitive steels myself. Let’s face it I love primitive camping to get away from it all but I am not about to sell my house and car to live in a tent full time, everything has its place.

As for being anti-science, Tai does that better than anybody I have met, and I respect his unwavering stance. I appreciate his position a whole hell of a lot more than the many folks who totally embrace science and use (abuse) it to promote their stuff only when it can make them look good and when it contradicts them they suddenly are anti science. There isn’t an ounce of sincerity in that, only slick P.R. It is an election year if I want any of that nonsense all I have to do is turn on the TV! I can say that Tai Goo doesn’t appear to give a hoot about slick P.R.

I don’t type these things because I suddenly want a tearful hug from Tai, believe me Tai and I profoundly disagree in many issues but he does provide balance in a way. Although I feel I am not nearly cold, scientific and logical enough to effectively counterbalance his position, if I were, we may both be banned by now. I just don’t want anybody placing bad feelings and negative emotions where there are none.

I have hated a couple of people in my life, it takes some very momentous effort to get me to that point, but when that happens you won’t have to guess or speculate you WILL definitely know it. Machiavelli wisely pointed out that love is all right but overrated when compared to respect. As long as I can find a few things to respect in a person I don’t need to love them to be able to cooperate and be civil.
 
I guess I had my cranky pants on last night. If I was out of line, I apologize. It was a long day. I, personally, take umbrage at the idea that having a focus on the more technical aspects of knifemaking (or any other craft) in some way detracts from the art of it. If that wasn't where Tai was taking it, then mea maxima culpa. But I have to say that if I am going to pay hundreds of dollars for a beautiful knife then I want to know some quantifiable FACTS about it, e.g. the composition of the steel, the heat treat process, etc. so that I can predict the probable performance of that particular knife under certain conditions. Otherwise it's pointy art, which has value too, but it's not a tool. I like tools. I may even BE a tool. :D And I need to know how far I can expect to push my tools before they push back. On the other hand, if I just wanted precision chemistry and no art I could just wrap duct tape around a planer blade for a handle and that would cut stuff, right? It just bugs the hell out of me to see a false division being made. I think these two "perspectives" are, in fact, inseparable and both necessary to make a good knife. And that's not directed at anybody in particular.

This may be my favorite post thus far:thumbup:

If you like the primitive nature of leaving the teeth on the blade from the file you made it out of in a camp fire, wrap some rawhide on the tang and as long as you are up front about what it is and what it isn't, I just may buy it! In fact I have!

If you make a dagger so beautiful that you didn't even sharpen it because no fool would ever actually use it, and the artistic lines may even be uncomfortable to the hand. Tell me that the heat treat is irrelevant to its primary function and offer a nice display case; it is worth the hundreds or thousands that an art collector would rightfully pay.

Make a hunter that will do an honest days work, feels great in my hand and was heat treated using the best methods and technology available to you in order to hold an edge and I would love to give it a try!

Or blend all of these together if you would like, as long as you tell it like it is. But if I am going to pay you $1000 dollars to make me a four inch hunter you damned well should be good enough to make it both artistic and at least the technical equal in it heat treatment as something made in a factory; but if you choose not to, be honest with yourself and me about that as well.

Most of you would never guess what I think is the coolest modern made knife I have ever seen. A friend brought it to my shop one day after he returned from the Philippines and wanted to know if I could do some improvements on it. The blade was around 14” long and still had the file teeth down the side, the handle was made from rough carved buffalo horn that had seen some moisture and the guard and pommel has seams all over it where the bits of scrap aluminum were put together to make it. Its overall shape was beautiful and it has a very distinct hamon running 5/8” of an inch up the blade. I cussed out my friend for asking me to destroy this artist’s work and offered to buy it myself. That knife was pure and honest; there was nothing pretentious or hyped up about it. The guy that made it could sleep at night knowing he did the best job he could do with what he had available. I could tell by his ingenuity that if he had salt baths he would have used them, or if all he had were rocks he would have used them. He wasn’t trying to make a kriss or barong or even attempting to be traditional, he was making the best damned 20th century knife he could- and he did!
 
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Now you've really gone and done it Kevin!

Damn man! You gave out my secret about how I make my knives,... by planting a piece of steel in the ground and watching knives grow out of it. :D
 
Could you repeat the question?
TJ

Iffun yah have one steel that won’t fully frizz up nice un hard like two others with more of that thar carbon in um when yah stick it hot inta heated erl (warm enugh to frie pork rynnes) , yit yah know it can do it! Wut in tarnation, without usin any fancy $5 words, is the problem?

But Matt already answered it completely with:

Whelp, yer erl is jes' too dern hot fer to take the low-sparkin' steel to the hardenin' temp witout lettin' it get all cooled n' sech.
Better'n to use yer old cold erl, n' pull the blade out when it's still smokin' the erl, n' not wet.

So we are already way beyond that part, sheesh TJ you need to follow the conversation better man!;)
 
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