Truth In Advertising: Food For Thought

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Blues

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A recent thread got me to thinking about, (for lack of a better term), truth in advertising.

When it comes to our food many nations impose requirements for labeling ingredients and country of origin so that we can (in theory) make an intelligent decision and choice.

I'd argue that the same "right to know" applies to purchasing a knife, custom or production. When it comes to spending one's hard earned money you have the right to know the facts and decide accordingly.

For example, in a production knife it would not be unreasonable to want to know the blade steel, the Rockwell hardness, cover material, method of construction and country of origin. Any one or more of those items will often be important to the buyer for any of a number of reasons, some more so than others.

When it comes to a custom or handmade knife, the ante is upped somewhat in my view, primarily due to the added cost and the trust that the knife being purchased is truly what it is represented to be.

In such circumstances it's not unreasonable, in my view, to want to know all of the information listed above and a bit more besides.

With a custom or handmade knife one would frequently want to know if the "maker" built the knife by him or herself in their own shop or whether there were other hands in the mix.
For example, some makers work with an assistant or apprentice and such information is readily available and disclosed to the potential buyer. How this effects the price may or may not be significant.

A few makers pride themselves on "sole authorship" wherein virtually every part excluding steel and cover material (including, for example, bushings and pins) is fabricated in their own workshop.

Others may do all of the work...grinding, heat treat, fitting, assembling etc. but use materials provided by a variety of vendors, domestic as well as off-shore.

Still others may build knives which are assembled or fabricated essentially from kits.

All of these myriad factors will figure into the final cost of the knife being purchased just as the reputation, time and effort put in by the maker must be considered.


To some users and collectors one or more of these facets may or may not be of particular value and, accordingly, there is no "right answer" in my view.
To some the bottom line is king and receiving good quality at an affordable price is paramount. To others it is pride of ownership and exclusivity which may be the overriding factors.
Again, to each his own and more power to the individual. Each point of view is as valid as the other and allows each of us to find and choose the appropriate knife for the appropriate usage...

...But, in each and every case there is, in my view, an obligation for "truth in advertising" wherein the customer has the right to know the facts about the knife being considered for purchase.
While there may be no one right or wrong way to build a knife, there is only one right way to offer it for sale and that is by being honest about what goes into its making. Anything less is unacceptable in my view.
 
A great topic my brother and for me I agree 100%. I tend to shy away when I have questions when the answers are not clear. The knife speaks for itself and for those who only look at that side of the knife that is great, but (again for me) the integrity of what is behind the knife weighs quite heavily in my decisions.
 
I agree completely.
... with the caveat that the amount of information buyers should expect to have available to them, should go up as the price rises, and vice versa. I'm not going to ask for the specs of a two dollar flea market knife, and a third world bladesmith doesn't have the means to test rockwell. But your post was referring to the knives popular around here, so I guess the above isn't really relevant.
 
I agree and don't buy from companies or makers that don't publish that info. I am a big believer that transparency breeds integrity.
 
Excellent topic. I also have wondered about Rockwell hardness more than anything else. It doean't do anyone much good when the manufacturer decides to list the HRc as between 58-64. :rolleyes:
Come on, a little more specific please.
 
I found out the hard way to ask more questions when I bought my first "custom " at a gun & knife show about 10 years ago. This is a fairly well known maker in these parts and attends events like A.G.Russell's. I was perusing his table looking at some fixed blade and saw some folders. I asked about them and he told me the framelocks w/scales were BG42. They were even signed with an engraver on the blades.

A year or two later I saw the exact knife on knife kits. The blade was Aus 8. He took the blade and changed the grind a bit on his grinder. He put some kit knives together to go with some fixed blades he did make and had himself a good weekend. I still have the knife and use it as a learning tool to remind me to....learn as much as possible. He told me it was BG42 after I asked him if he had any BG42 blades. It was kind of like..."oh yeah, these are BG42", "great steel".

When I see the beautiful traditionals he makes now I often wonder. I know he scammed me good on a folder and yet I always read glowing reports about him and what a great guy he is. He was nice to me too as he took my money. :)

I never asked if it was just a cheap kit knife slapped together for the show. I guess I should have.

Joe
 
I would like to address a few things from this maker's standpoint.

I totally agree that a person willing to spend his hard earned $ with me has 110% right to know what/how and whom is making his knife. My time spend here on the BF has taught me that buyers are buying the knife and the name behind it. I would like my knives to stand completely on their own merits of course but in reality that is not the case.

What I can not understand is a maker coming across as evasive when asked a direct question as to how he makes his knives. This serves no good purpose , either for the maker or buyer.
 
Mastiff's post brings to mind a thought I have long had after all that Mantis tripe....how do you know what they are saying is true? Like materials and hardness unless you have the ability to test. For the most part I put the trust that what they are saying is the truth. mastiff, do you think that if you had never discovered the kits, you would have known the difference? Have you had the blade tested it see if it is Bg-42? I wouldn't, I would just be pissed. I just trust what the maker tells me unless I am convinced different.
 
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I would like to address a few things from this maker's standpoint.

I totally agree that a person willing to spend his hard earned $ with me has 110% right to know what/how and whom is making his knife. My time spend here on the BF has taught me that buyers are buying the knife and the name behind it. I would like my knives to stand completely on their own merits of course but in reality that is not the case.

What I can not understand is a maker coming across as evasive when asked a direct question as to how he makes his knives. This serves no good purpose , either for the maker or buyer.

I'll happily admit to my personal bias and friendship right up front but the bottom line is if everyone had your ethics, Ken, I wouldn't have had a reason to start this thread.
 
Guys, if we could avoid naming names in this thread it might be easier to get a cross section of points of view. Otherwise, we run the risk of getting stuck in a rut of finger-pointing.

Hope you can work with that limitation.
 
No maker can claim that unless they personally -

- mixed the steel themselves.

- laid the CF sheets or Micarta.

- rolled the pins/tubing.

- created the epoxy

- harvested and tanned the leather

I could go on. Are we becoming THAT petty as collectors/owners that we need a pedigree for each knife? What do you expect to accomplish, an "AKC Registration" for every knife? That is absolutely ridiculous.
 
I'm not starting a registration database.... ;)

You're reading too much into the OP.

Full disclosure is (or should be) the rule....
 
No maker can claim that unless they personally -

- mixed the steel themselves.

- laid the CF sheets or Micarta.

- rolled the pins/tubing.

- created the epoxy

- harvested and tanned the leather

I could go on. Are we becoming THAT petty as collectors/owners that we need a pedigree for each knife? What do you expect to accomplish, an "AKC Registration" for every knife? That is absolutely ridiculous.

I think you're missing the point. Its about truth in advertising, and nothing more.
He said excluding the steel, and covers. And we know many don't make their own sheaths, but the ones that don't make their sheaths do not put their name on the sheath. Some do, and others use makers such as Paul Long, Kenny Rowe, etc..., and their name will be on the sheath.
For example, you wouldn't want magnetic Titanium would you. That would not be truth in advertising, and yes I know of a case of that happening.
 
It's a good topic Elliott, and one that deserves discussion.

I don't have any customs yet, but have just completed my drawing, that one of our makers here is going to do.
In this particular case, I know the answers to the questions that are being covered here. If I was going in blind, with another maker, I would want to know all the details. To me, it is even more important to know all the details on a custom knife, because a person is obviously paying more for one, than a production knife. Besides, a custom is a very personal process.

On production knives, it would also be nice to know the details. It may or may not change a persons decision about the knife.
There is one company that comes to mind. They have been in business for many years, and have a sub forum here on BF's. While all the details are not on the packaging, if a question gets asked about their knives, they are very good about answering them.
I have never felt that they were trying to skate around a question, and that says a lot about the company to me.
While most of us here would like to know all the details, I'm sure that a large number of consumers of production knives, really don't care, or understand the details. For many, it is just a knife :eek:

It wouldn't take much to put a small piece of paper in with the knife, with the details, or put the details on the box.
Personally I think it would really add to the purchase. It would be a good way for average consumers, to increase their knowledge of the knives they buy, and possibly increase their expanded interest in other knives...
 
For sure in a Custom I want to know everything because I am pretty picky about what I expect as in the best performance I can get, so I really need all the details before I can decide.

Then I test the said knife to make sure and it better perform as expected or it's going back. ;)
 
For example, you wouldn't want magnetic Titanium would you. That would not be truth in advertising, and yes I know of a case of that happening.

Good one, Ken. Years ago my good friend Kit Carson built me a Model 16 with all Titanium construction (including clip, screws and pivot) with a Stellite blade.

Since I was in law enforcement, I thought it'd be fun to walk through the magnetometer at the federal courthouse with it and see how it fared. Passed with flying colors.
I asked the security staff to use the "metal detector" wand on me afterward. The wand did pick up the "metal".

Of course, I never had a doubt that Kit would deliver what he promised anyway. It's just that I never had (before or since) a knife with that type of construction and it was fun to test in a real world situation.
 
With a custom or handmade knife one would frequently want to know if the "maker" built the knife by him or herself in their own shop or whether there were other hands in the mix...

...But, in each and every case there is, in my view, an obligation for "truth in advertising" wherein the customer has the right to know the facts about the knife being considered for purchase.

I agree. Here are my thoughts on the matter, as posted on my website:
"A Few Words About 'Trade Secrets'

Some makers and manufacturers like to surround themselves with a fog of hocus-pocus to make their products seem magical. Frankly, this irritates me to no end.

Buying a handmade knife is an investment in quality, and you deserve to know exactly what you're getting.

There are no "secrets" to what I do, how I do it or what materials I do it with. I will happily answer any questions you may have about my knives. If you come across a knifemaker who won't tell you specifically how and why he builds, heat-treats and tests his knives, tell him to go climb a rope.

I will always inform my clients exactly what materials I use and how I have them treated. No 'proprietary' renaming of metals, no 'top-secret' HT regimens, no nonsense. I put all my cards on the table so you can make an informed decision, free of hype."

I think that's fair. :)
 
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