Truth In Advertising: Food For Thought

[tobii3]

I think you're missing the point. Its about truth in advertising, and nothing more.

Then we will need to create a "Knife Assemblers Guild" and establish the difference between a "Maker" and an "Assembler".

Anyone using CNC or waterjet is now an "Assembler", because they relied on something else to make the parts. The truth, right?

Of course, anyone else in the shop that touched said knife negates it being "handbuilt" and makes it a "collaboration". This is the truth, isn't it?

G-d forbid if a ball-bearing that is forged into a knife was made in Japan! The maker would be disgraced!

 

[Ken44]

Then we will need to create a "Knife Assemblers Guild" and establish the difference between a "Maker" and an "Assembler".

Anyone using CNC or waterjet is now an "Assembler", because they relied on something else to make the parts. The truth, right?

Of course, anyone else in the shop that touched knife negates it being "handbuilt" and makes it a "collaboration". This is the truth, isn't it?

No need for that. As long as they don't false advertise, tell you what you want to know when you ask, and don't dance around it they're good in my book.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

tobii3, read Blues first post again. It is a tribute to the incredibly varied ways to make a knife, even a custom / handmade / sole authorship knife. God created iron in the heart of a star. The rest is up to humanity, and techniques will vary.

What a customer needs is a knife to do the work he described to the maker, who collaborates with him to decide on materials, style, and price. I have seen people on Bladeforums sell properly described kit knives with satisfied customers praising them. And going on to try their own hand at putting a handle on a blade, sewing a sheath, pleased with their own work.

The question does come up when someone buys a knife already made, beautiful to look at, but wonders how it got that way. There are too any possible difference from kit to sole authorship to make a category for each, to be overseen by some association we don't need. An honest craftsman begins a sale by presenting a knife, or his known ability to craft one on order. He can then describe the process, perhaps even providing a work-in-progress thread documenting it.

His customer is happy but after the fact other potential customers may have more questions. No polite, technical question is wrong. Any good knifemaker can easily answer how many people work in his shop, where he gets his materials, if he makes or buys small parts. We don't need an association for what should be a very personal relationship between customer and maker.

 

[james terrio]

Then we will need to create a "Knife Assemblers Guild" and establish the difference between a "Maker" and an "Assembler".

Not necessary at all. If the maker/assembler/whatever is offering full disclosure on his/her processes, those questions are already answered. The Knifemaker's Guild and American Bladesmith Society (and other groups) already have very clear guidelines. Knife buyers today have a high level of knowledge and sophistication, and are generally well-prepared to make the decisions of which makers or manufacturers they choose to support.

This is a fantastic thing for all of us! It raises the bar of quality, weeds out the crap and the fly-by-night characters very quickly, gives customers a wide variety of excellence from which to choose, and challenges every maker to do their very best.

Anyone using CNC or waterjet is now an "Assembler", because they relied on something else to make the parts. The truth, right?

No. If the profiles are cut by laser or waterjet, and then hand-ground and finished, so what? That's no different than using a bandsaw, in my opinion.

If the bevels are cut by CNC instead of being forged/ground by hand, that's a distinction in many people's eyes. If the maker is a talented and qualified machinist doing the work themselves to produce their own designs (and there are many great examples of such), that level of skill and expertise is no less admirable than doing all the stock-removal by "calibrated eyeball". I assure you, the folks employing high-tech methods to make their own designs are not just pushing a magic "easy" button.

If you're unconvinced of this point of view, I invite you ask in ShopTalk. Keep in mind, these are people who are competing with each other for a slice of a very narrow, and not particularly lucrative market. This topic has come up many times over the years, and among people who make their living by producing the finest-quality hand-made knives on the planet, the concensus is very consistent: regardless of technique or how much work is farmed out, any maker/assembler who's open about how they produce their knives will be welcomed, and will find their niche if their knives are of high quality.

 

[ken erickson]

This thread is more about a maker being forth coming and open about his knives, not the process's themselves.

Many many years ago I used a hacksaw to profile blade blanks, now I use a power bandsaw. I really do not think my customer cares if I use a hacksaw, bandsaw, or as some do, a water jet. But I do think my customer would care if I was caught in a lie saying I was still using a hacksaw. I think the same goes if a customer asks me a question and I am obviously evasive.

 

[A. G. Russell]

As any of my customers know, I believe in "Truth in Advertizing" Lying about your product is not only silly, it is a crime. Fraud is easily proven, but seldom taken to court. I all of the past 48 years in this business I only know of one knifemaker convicted of fraud. The Judge forbid him to evere again make or offer knives for sale.

BUT, full discloseure is something else. If I say it, it will be true, or at least I will believe it to be true. I often do not say things that I feel are not anyone else's business. When I was developing makers in Japan to build knives to my then standards, I often had people hounding me for their names. It was often difficult not to be rude.

Asking questions of a maker you do not intend to buy from is a waste of his time and yours unless you have some agenda.

 

[Ken44]

Asking questions of a maker you do not intend to buy from is a waste of his time and yours unless you have some agenda.

I don't think asking means you have an agenda. Especially on a forum, or at a show. Alot of us have many knifenut friends, and share information with our friends who may be likely buyers. The more you know, the more you can help others.
Now I sure wouldn't call someone and ask them anything if I wasn't thinking of buying. But I may ask them at a show, or while they were on the forums.

 

[Dan57]

BUT, full discloseure is something else. If I say it, it will be true, or at least I will believe it to be true. I often do not say things that I feel are not anyone else's business. When I was developing makers in Japan to build knives to my then standards, I often had people hounding me for their names. It was often difficult not to be rude.

This is a good point. IMO, not revealing the names of specific outsourced manufacturers is fine, as long as you're honest about the country the knives are made in.

 

[OHALLUM]

Then we will need to create a "Knife Assemblers Guild" and establish the difference between a "Maker" and an "Assembler".

Anyone using CNC or waterjet is now an "Assembler", because they relied on something else to make the parts. The truth, right?

Of course, anyone else in the shop that touched said knife negates it being "handbuilt" and makes it a "collaboration". This is the truth, isn't it?

G-d forbid if a ball-bearing that is forged into a knife was made in Japan! The maker would be disgraced!

I may be wrong, but I think he was speaking "tongue in cheek", and not really advocating a "knife maker's guild" in his post. The big clue is the last statement he made re: a ball bearing being made in Japan.
I have no problem with Makers-MFGS stating the materials, heat treat, and country of origin of manufacturer. Any thing more is not needed, nor warranted. It is still an art and a craft, and as so deserves some privacy from competitors.
Just my $0.02 worth. I don't care how or what my wife puts in her meatloaf, only that it is tasty and that I enjoy it. If not, then I don't have to eat it.

Blessings,

Omar

 

[tobii3]

Asking questions of a maker you do not intend to buy from is a waste of his time and yours unless you have some agenda.

Absolutely.

A recent thread got me to thinking about, (for lack of a better term), truth in advertising.

We already know who Elliott is referring to, yet he "wants to avoid naming names" in this thread. No "agenda" whatsoever, no, none at all.

 

[A. G. Russell]

I don't think asking means you have an agenda. Especially on a forum, or at a show. Alot of us have many knifenut friends, and share information with our friends who may be likely buyers. The more you know, the more you can help others.
Now I sure wouldn't call someone and ask them anything if I wasn't thinking of buying. But I may ask them at a show, or while they were on the forums.

Lord knows I have been seeking information from makers for 50 years but asking questions that you hope will embarrass the maker on a forum is pulling wings off of flies. There is no way this is what you are talking about but others are, don't be backing them up

 

[Blues]

We already know who Elliott is referring to, yet he "wants to avoid naming names" in this thread. No "agenda" whatsoever, no, none at all.

That's just crap pure and simple and I suggest that you don't get started down that road.

Over the many years I have been moderating this site, going to shows and purchasing knives, several makers have appeared on the radar for a variety of reasons...including but not limited to outsourcing their work or importing knives from abroad that were improperly marked or outright cheating of customers. Some of those makers or companies once enjoyed membership on this site until the truth was found out and they were removed.

A polite request for information is not an agenda, especially when it is asked of someone with something for sale. This thread was about the right to information and transparency from makers...individuals as well as companies.

It's hard to have an agenda when you have no personal relationship or beef with the given party and have no money at risk since you own none of the party's work and have nothing on order.

Honesty, transparency and truthfulness are their own reward, imho. I would argue that the only people with an agenda here are those trying to sidetrack a request for legitimate information (based upon some sense of misguided loyalty or other undisclosed personal considerations). My guess is that our membership can tell who really has the agenda here.