Two Diagrams from Crucible Data Sheets

[Stickbait]

...there seems to be the "ultimate blade steel" (and fortune)waiting for the man or men to be found,seemingly in combining the toughness of S7 and the wear resistance of CPM-10V.Dream on!

 

[Gollnick]

There are several for each,
-Cliff

That is the problem. There isn't a single number. These things, "toughness" and "wear resistance" are multi-dimensional traits.

 

[nozh2002]

...there seems to be the "ultimate blade steel" (and fortune)waiting for the man or men to be found,seemingly in combining the toughness of S7 and the wear resistance of CPM-10V.Dream on!

Hold on - there is CPM 15V which is more wear resistant then CPM 10V, but less tough.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/ds15Vv5.pdf

However I don't now how and where to buy all this steel - it is about few day of evening work for anybody to make blades - I already started with CPM S90V:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349822

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[the possum]

Cliff-
Yeah, I know. I mostly made that comment tongue-in-cheek. I should have probably thrown in some smilies or something.
This info would probably be more helpful to a maker just starting out, than someone who has spent years becoming intimately familiar with their chosen steel.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

These things, "toughness" and "wear resistance" are multi-dimensional traits.

Yes and each one is easily quantified with ASM standard materials tests, and each has a specific effect on blade performance. In the above the toughness is a charpy value and the wear resistance abrasive as these are what they most commonly refer to by the generic terms. Of course you can be sloppy and spam toughness across any number of properties, I have seen makers call D2 tough because it is difficult to grind. Just be specific in what you are talking about and it is can be easily quantified, be vague and generic and you can't of course but that is true for anything.

-Cliff

 

[nozh2002]

I found that CPM 10V and CPM 3V is available directly from Crusible with good thickness (1/4" first and .290"~.315" second).

I am wondering is it possible to make laminated blade out of CPM 3V + CPM 15V + CPM 3V? Suppose to be combination of super wear resistand + super tough.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[W.T. Beck]

It really does show how good 440C is and why.

I recall reading somewhere that a problem with 440C is that there is a wide variation in the quality of 440C coming from different countries and manufacturers. Perhaps this is why 440C does not have a better reputation.

 

[WYK]

I found that CPM 10V and CPM 3V is available directly from Crusible with good thickness (1/4" first and .290"~.315" second).

I am wondering is it possible to make laminated blade out of CPM 3V + CPM 15V + CPM 3V? Suppose to be combination of super wear resistand + super tough.

Thanks, Vassili.

Perhaps, but would one be able to sharpen it without using a machine grinder?

WYK

 

[nozh2002]

Perhaps, but would one be able to sharpen it without using a machine grinder?

WYK

Well, so far I never saw such a knife. I wish I will, but modern steel easyly can be sharpened by modern sharpening solutions - Spyderco stones - in Sharpmaker rods or as a benchstone - never fail. And even antique japanese waterstones will not fail for sure. This steel will be hard, but there is some things around wich much harder.

Anyway, I will love to sharpen my knife for a day or even two once a year.

If somebody need something to sharpen it easy - there are lot of knives around which are easy to sharpen, for $1 or $2 everywhere. But I like to have something premium, elite, etc... I am not a casual knife user - I am knifemaniac and even if it will reqiure machine grinder - I still like to have one of this knives (and I will, even if it mean that I have to make it myself).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[averageguy]

"I recall reading somewhere that a problem with 440C is that there is a wide variation in the quality of 440C coming from different countries and manufacturers. Perhaps this is why 440C does not have a better reputation."

I'm not sure that it is a wide variation in the quality of 440C but rather a potential variation in the quality of heat treat. This, of course, is a problem with any steel type.

I've yet to see anything in the knife media regarding this topic and I believe it is more a reaction from some members on these forums with a (rightly or wrongly) bias against China and Chinese made knives some of which are marketed by Smith & Wesson of 440C.

Of course major manufacturers like Buck and Kershaw are also marketing Chinese made knives of 440C and D2 now. Reviews of these knives on the forums have been positive.

440C has traditionally been and continues to be a benchmark steel.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The problem with such a laminate is that the soak and tempering temperatures to maximize the performance of both steels are quite different.

-Cliff

 

[WYK]

... but modern steel easyly can be sharpened by modern sharpening solutions...This steel will be hard, but there is some things around wich much harder.

Anyway, I will love to sharpen my knife for a day or even two once a year.

If somebody need something to sharpen it easy - there are lot of knives around which are easy to sharpen, for $1 or $2 everywhere. But I like to have something premium, elite, etc... I am not a casual knife user - I am knifemaniac and even if it will reqiure machine grinder - I still like to have one of this knives (and I will, even if it mean that I have to make it myself).

Thanks, Vassili.

I was being facetious about the machine grinder, Vasili.
However, your point will help me make mine. We have become used to having to put forth the extra effort into sharpening all these new super stainless steels. Most carbon steels like 52100, L6, 1084, 1095, etc. hold a better edge, and are far easier to sharpen than stainless steels at the hardness levels needed in knives. I only have 2 folding knives that are stainless, and every single fixed blade I have is in carbon steel. One in Aus 8(A Camillus HEAT), the other in Aus 6(A push dagger). The rest are comprised of a Carbon V Cold Steel Trail Guide Folder(an insanely good buy at $25!), a D2 BM AFCK, and an M2 BM 710. All of which hold an edge better than stainless and are nearly effortless to sharpen by comparison - many times merely requiring a stropping.
If you like sharpening, then it won't matter. Me? I would rather be fishin' (or trollin')

WYK

 

[nozh2002]

Little correction at the - This steel are not stainless - CPM 3V, 9V, 10V, 15V is not stainless at all. Only CPM S90V is stainless.

And again I have Spyderco Sharpmaker and it sharpens anything pretty quickly. I had only problem with sharpening japanese higonokamy because Medium Rod is too hard for hard Aogamy and it require waterstone.

Even CPM 440V (S60V) - which is most wear resisant from what is available on the market (still available in Kershaw Avalanche and Boa).

My point is there is no problem with sharpening!

And I will wellcome steel which will have such a "problem". However it does not look like CPM 3V, 9V, 10V and 15V will have this problem, most likely they will be sharpenet by alumoceramic just fine (Spyderco Sharpmaker and/or benchstones). So case when mechanical grinder (like Tormek SuperGrind 2006) will be really needed is hipothetical for now.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[WYK]

Nice, but I can sharpen my 52100 Bowie blade on a strop in less than a minute. All ya need to do is brush the edge back to true. And it cost me nothing more than a smudge of rouge.
Don't get me wrong, though - CPM 3V is an excellent blade steel.

WYK

 

[nozh2002]

Nice, but I can sharpen my 52100 Bowie blade on a strop in less than a minute. All ya need to do is brush the edge back to true. And it cost me nothing more than a smudge of rouge.
Don't get me wrong, though - CPM 3V is an excellent blade steel.

WYK

Yes, I heard CR made some limited edition run with CPM 3V and something about Spyderco new model.

Let have this steels in blades and then we may discuss this for real. Of course 52100 or 5260 is great steels, as I understand they still on the top in terms of providing perfect edge, but let see what those steels are, diagram is quite promicing and you can not tell for sure that you can not do same what you doing for 52100 for them until try, as well as say that they will require special equipment to sharpen, which is unlikely IMHO (on Spyderco Sharpmaker).

So far I never experience problems with sharpening - I read similar concerns about M2 or CPM 440V even about ATS-34, but Spyderco Sharpmaker always works for me just fine without significant difference.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[the possum]

Nice, but I can sharpen my 52100 Bowie blade on a strop in less than a minute. All ya need to do is brush the edge back to true. And it cost me nothing more than a smudge of rouge.
Don't get me wrong, though - CPM 3V is an excellent blade steel.

WYK

WYK-
For your kind of use, it doesn't sound like you'd see the difference or need the extra toughness offered by 3V. But when I sharpen my bowie, I use a 120 grit alumina stone, and remove metal so quick the blade actually gets hot. That's how much damage it gets. It would take a month to sharpen it with a strop. According to the chart, 3V or S7 may well reduce this damage significantly, meaning my knife will last longer. I've already removed a quarter inch of steel from the last third of its edge.

 

[yuzuha]

...there seems to be the "ultimate blade steel" (and fortune)waiting for the man or men to be found,seemingly in combining the toughness of S7 and the wear resistance of CPM-10V.Dream on!

Tiny grain size like O-1 would be nice too, so you can take that edge down to 10 degrees per side without the carbides falling out.

 

[Vorpal Blade]

Looking for CPM 3V I found this two diagrams in Cricible Data Sheets - I put them together

Thanks Vassilli. I printed out the bar graphs for general reference. You come up with some of the best technical info.
.........Ron

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Tiny grain size like O-1 would be nice too, so you can take that edge down to 10 degrees per side without the carbides falling out.

Carbides are really small, ~1 micron, you don't need to worry about them even in steels like D2. I have sharpened it at ~5 degress per side.

I've already removed a quarter inch of steel from the last third of its edge.

Do you see chips or impaction?

-Cliff

 

[yuzuha]

Interesting. I've taken d2 down to 10 with a 15,000 grit stone and 0.3 micron lapping film, but it didn't stay that way... turned into a micro-saw. Seems to keep a much smoother edge if I keep it at 15 or more. M2 seems to handle 10 degrees just fine though.