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two general questions

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by mykem, Apr 21, 2016.

  1. mykem

    mykem

    292
    Feb 23, 2001
    1. Why do i keep reading if you have used honing oil on a stone you can't/shouldn't use water on the same stone?

    2. What is the best way to cut a thumbnail groove into a slip joint that doesn't have one?
     
  2. wiredbeans

    wiredbeans

    898
    Apr 5, 2015
    1. If you used oil then you have to get it out of the stone otherwise water won't stick and useless

    2. Dremel metal cutting disk, do go slow and steady and use water to cool it down every 3 seconds


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. mykem

    mykem

    292
    Feb 23, 2001
    I have a hard arkansas stone that i only use water on and the water just seems to stay on the surface but i guess there has to be some penetration.

    And thanks for the warning about the dremel and heat. I would not have thought about it. I guess i'll mark the spot, use a low speed and keep a spray bottle at hand. How many RPMs do you think is safe for the job. My dremel runs 5000 - 35000 RPMs.
     
  4. wiredbeans

    wiredbeans

    898
    Apr 5, 2015
    I never tried creating a nail nick, but using cobalt drill bits to drill holes into H beam we use 85W oil and 450 to 500 rpm otherwise smoke starts almost immediately... I did drill hole into 154cm blade for thumb studs and I use 500 rpm drill press with lots of water so using dremel at 5000 rpm... I'd be very careful if the knife is of any value


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. mykem

    mykem

    292
    Feb 23, 2001

    Shoot, 5000 rpms is the lowest speed.
     
  6. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    :) because people like to repeat "truthy" sounding saying,
    especially if they have one surprise experience which becomes a rule/truthy saying

    Fantastic video this Using oil on waterstones and water on oilstones ? - Cliff Stamp

    using oil and soap and water :) Formula for Hard-Stone Lubricant
     
  7. mykem

    mykem

    292
    Feb 23, 2001
    Thanks, bucket. Everything that guy in the video said about using oil on water stones and vice versa made perfect sense. And he essentially said using oil and then water and water then oil on the same stone was fine too.

    He said he uses both oil and water on the same stones and the stones work fine. And judging by all the hair missing from his arms, i'd say his knives are sharp.:untroubled:
     
  8. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    You can use water on an oil stone. If you add some soap to the water you don't need to worry about removing the oil first. Oil tends to work better as it promotes breakdown of the stone surface faster than water, and floats the swarf off the surface, rather than just help prevent in embedding into the stone. Using both intentionally won't yield much in the way of performance (though won't cause problems either) - at hand speeds oil and water will not emulsify to any extent.

    DO NOT use oil on a designated waterstone unless you want a lot of issues getting the stone to ever work right again. I am speaking from some hard earned experience here across a number of waterstone brands. Waterstones aren't just called that for marketing, the composition of the stone is designed to break down with water and abrasive action. Oil will leech into the stone binder and reduce its ability to refresh itself. The stone will load up and become next to useless, requiring constant surface conditioning to function. If you rub the surface of a loaded, wet waterstone with a fingertip, the stone cleans up. Used with oil most of it just works further into the binder.

    It is possible to completely impregnate a ceramic or vitreous waterstone with oil and it will work, again, if the surface is conditioned constantly, but will work far better if used with water. Resin waterstones will be ruined perhaps permanently if used with oil, as it won't all come back out in a boil (212°) and cooking it to a higher temp will wreck the stone. It does not take much tinkering to learn the truth of this - there may be the odd waterstone that can be used this way but it would be the exception and even then I have my doubts.

    I welcome the video where someone uses oil on one 4k King stone and water on another right next to it and, doesn't finish with "...and that's why its called a waterstone".

    FWIW, softer waterstones should be finished with a trailing pass IF that's going to be the last stone in your progression. Otherwise, yes, just continue on and finish with a finer stone. Murray Carter covers this pretty comprehensively in his videos.

    Edit:
    changed "oil" to "swarf"
    Thanks Chris :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  9. Chris "Anagarika"

    Chris "Anagarika"

    Mar 7, 2001
    Martin,

    I believe you mean 'floats the swarf off' rather than 'floats the oil off'. ;)
     
  10. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    :) hahaha,
    water stone or oil stone?
    T0930W 2k/5k
    1. Soak the stone in the water for 5 minutes, and then put it on a steady platform
    ....3. Sharpening result would be much better using with sharpening oil.

    On amazon they're sold as "waterstones"
     
  11. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010

    Or typo/bad translation from Chinese...
     
  12. Chris "Anagarika"

    Chris "Anagarika"

    Mar 7, 2001
    My friend has similar stone from Taedea, I have one rebranded as Ace but is exactly same as their 400/1000. I think it is waterstone.
     
  13. blade dude

    blade dude

    890
    Nov 8, 2015
    Okay for your dremel question, if you spray the area with cutting fluid for taps and dies it works better. Don't worry that the rpm is higher. The biggest thing is not to let any of the blade get too hot to hold so yeah spraying or dunking in water is necessary


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. bgentry

    bgentry

    Aug 3, 2009
    I respect Cliff Stamp and his approach to sharpening in a scientific way. He's obviously very knowledgeable and has performed many many experiments of his own to prove and disprove various theories. I've learned a lot from him. This isn't a popular opinion around here, but it's what I think.

    This video you link isn't exactly definitive though is it? Cliff doesn't soak a waterstone in oil and then show it in use. He shows us a tiny little piece of a stone glued to a stick. He even says that he has NOT tested this on very many waterstones and would be reluctant to do so.

    Several highly skilled and experienced members here have reported that oil on waterstones is a very bad idea. I tend to believe them. Your words above make it sound like the idea of water and oil being bad on different stones is made up. I think it's based in solid experience with bad things happening.

    Brian.
     
  15. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    Yes, cutting fluid works great. I most often use chain saw bar oil. A thin strip of water-soaked rag wrapped around the blade in question and just expose the area the nick will be and you're pretty much guaranteed to be OK even at high RPM.

    As for the waterstones, have fun testing but keep in mind not all tinkering is reversible.

    Edit to add: most vitreous oil stones have a high concentration of silica that is fired - it is glass as a binder with a small amount of clay, the clay primarily to hold the mix together prior to being put in the kiln. These "glass" pieces can be seen in the stone under magnification. I am not clear on why oil works better with these compositions to brreak down the surface and increase refresh rate, but IIRC even cliff established this working with an India stone - pics and all.

    Waterstones use a combination of resins and/or binders that are more clay like in nature, hence they break down in the presence of water when agitated and crumble more readily even when dry. As for the differences, put some water on grout and rub with dirt. Do the same with oil. See which one cleans up with a bit of rubbing and more oil/water.

    Waterstones can certainly be used with oil but will need an applied source of abrasion to clean them - a rubbing stone of some sort - the mechanical action of sharpening will not do it. As a result they load very rapidly and grind slowly compared to using with water.

    Have fun tinkering, but in this instance you can easily ruin your gear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2016
  16. hein31

    hein31

    24
    Mar 1, 2016
    You can use certain types of waterstones with oil, depending on the applied form of binding.

    Cheap stones often have a cement binding. You soak them in water, let them dry out five minutes and put just enough oil on top of it to lubricate the intended sharpening process. After finishing you carefully remove the oil with a paper towel, dont rub, just let the paper suck up the oil. If you prevent the stone from permanently soaking up oil you can use it with water or oil the next time (in the described way). Cement bound stones should not be permanently soaked in oil, because that permanently changes their possible methods of use. Cleaning a soaked stone completly of oil is difficult and mostly involves boiling in water with detergents, that can lead to cracks in the stone and should only be considered for hard stones.

    Magnesia bound waterstones are normaly more expensive and should not be used with oil, not even like descibed above. The magnesia binder sometimes reacts to the oil and is softened quickly, so a stone develops an oily film with loose grid the next time you use the stone. If oil soaks in permanently you indeed ruin this kind of stone.

    Ceramic stones that are bound "vitrified" like hard siliconcarbide stones, Indiga stones, boroncarbide stones and others are often graded as water or oil lubricated. That means you can use them in the above described way or permanently soaked in oil. Often the resellers of the stones simply market them as "waterstones" because they don't know better or don't want to explain their customers the full range of possible applications for the stone.

    So: don't try Naniwas (except the siliconcarbide ones), Shaptons or other high value japanese waterstones with oil. If you are uncertain about the capabilities of your intended stone, try to look it up on the internet. If you don't find any information about your stone feel free to try it once as described or let it be, if you are uncertain if it ruins one of your highly valued stones.
     
  17. eKretz

    eKretz

    926
    Aug 30, 2009
    Yeah don't pooh-pooh the old saying, it's true in some cases. Some stones can be used either way and even back and forth, but the warning given in the last post is accurate. I have a Suehiro 5k that is pretty much trashed due to my idiot move of laying an oil stone on top of it with paper towel between. Some oil leeched from the oil stone into the paper towel and was held in contact with the top of the Suehiro overnight. The next morning I saw the oil and immediately scrubbed with detergent as well as lapped the stone flat with a diamond plate - but to no avail. There is a soft spot in that stone now that perfectly coincides with the oil outline that was on the paper towel. Every time I use it that spot wears much heavier than the rest of the stone during use.
     
  18. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    Hi,
    Well, thats the manufacturers website, and the rest of the english translation reads like fluent/native english, so a typo? highly unlikely, all the other translations seem native , and even the "bad" machine translation say use oil for best results
    In addition to that, this guy says he telephones someone at taidea who spoke english and told him use oil, and he did and results were "better" as in more comfortable shave / higher grit finish Wednesday shave and a chat about taidea hones. - caleb McCullough
    so waterstone or oilstone? yes :D
     
  19. bucketstove

    bucketstove

    Sep 23, 2014
    Hi,
    why wouldn't it be "definitive"?
    I had to look that up,
    yes, you could say it is definitive,
    (iirc) things he says in the video
    • waterstones (resin bond ) won't explode if you use oil on them
    • in industry they use oil or water or mixtures such stones (resin bond)
    • oil (like mineral oil) won't chemically attack/break a resin bond ("glue"),
    • oil is superior lubricant reduces friction and extends life of abrasive
    • water stones (soft bond) release grit easy so not much benefit to using oil to reduce friction
    • vitrified stones (hard bond) don't release grit easy so you double the useful life by using oil to reduce friction / wear on the abrasive
    • king water stone ... oil doesn't dry out like water ... splash and go / splash'n'go (like Suehiro Dual-Stone )
    • people do say use oil on arkansas natural stones but say never use oil on japanese natural "water" stones ... but the japanese natural won't explode if you use oil on it (like an arkansas natural)
    • think about properties of water/oil, think about what you want to accomplish
    • ...



    Ok, back to the "definitive" thing,
    why would soaking a stone in oil affect the "definitiveness" of what hes saying?

    What he actually says in the video hes reluctant to do is spray down his expensive japanese stones (naniwa/choosera) with DETERGENTS not oil, because there is a good chance they would release too much grit.
    The expensive stones hes talking about are sorel cement / magnesium cement bonded, Magnesia bonding / magnesium cement / breaks down rapidly in water Shapton Professional 220 , Naniwa Superstone 400



    But speaking of soaking in oil, this buy broke his king 1k, and soaked the smaller piece in oil, it didn't explode :D Perhaps a happy accident on a broken stone.




    Thats not very truthy :) think about it :D
     
  20. Bill DeShivs

    Bill DeShivs KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 6, 2000
    Re: cutting a nail nick-
    Use the thin abrasive discs supplied with your rotary tool. Use the lowest speed. DO NOT use cutting fluids with abrasive discs.
    Brace the hand holding the rotary tool on something. Make light cuts. I doubt you will generate enough heat to hurt the edge of the knife.
    Cut a slot the length you want your nick to be. Then, use the disc to cut a slight angle into the slot.
    You will want to practice on scrap metal before attempting this.
     

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