two general questions

Abrasive discs are meant to be used dry.
Get oil soaked into a 20,000 rpm disc and you better hide.
 
bucketstove said:
Hi,
Well, thats the manufacturers website, and the rest of the english translation reads like fluent/native english, so a typo? highly unlikely, all the other translations seem native , and even the "bad" machine translation say use oil for best results
In addition to that, this guy says he telephones someone at taidea who spoke english and told him use oil, and he did and results were "better" as in more comfortable shave / higher grit finish Wednesday shave and a chat about taidea hones. - caleb McCullough
so waterstone or oilstone? yes :D
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Well, assuming all the product description is correct and not a typo or bad translation, the Taidea does not describe itself as a waterstone, but rather a whetstone. Use as directed.

Re stones that are listed as a "waterstone", give it a try on one of yours and let me know how it worked out for you.

You say he said, they said and is good to go. I'd be interested in what you found out when you tried it, before telling anyone they can make this work and possibly causing them to lose a bunch of $ in gear.

I said I tried it myself on a bunch of stone makes and it's bad advice from my personal experience. When it did "work", it didn't work as well as using the way the manufacturer recommended (big surprise). Sometimes the manufacturer does know what they're doing/talking about, more often than some might think.

Not sure why you would claim
"oil is superior lubricant reduces friction and extends life of abrasive".
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Are you claiming oil reduces the compressive or tensile strength of steels, or increases the compressive or tensile strength of the abrasives? Use of lubricants far more important in cutting/milling operations and not for grinding, where the cutting faces are often negative rake angle and the minerals break out if stressed by too large of a chip.

Abrasive work by chip carving will not be effected by use of oil over water, and is unclear if plowing and rubbing action (non material removing process) will be effected either. The mineral will glaze at the same rate based on stock removal. On some stones the use of oil reduces secondary mineral damage caused by loose abrasives and swarf (loading/plugging and glazing not resulting from stock removal). On a waterstone the mud improves suspension qualities (increases viscosity of the water), oil is not needed.

Abrasive life is determined by all kinds of factors (not least of which the type of abrasive), oil or water not being high on the list, though it does have a huge effect on refresh rate of whatever binder is being used. The primary difference has nothing to do with the abrasive, rather the environment around it. Some engineered stone compositions are designed to be used dry and use of oil or water will degrade performance.

If you use oil on a Jnat it will slowly break down into a muddy lump. Coticules also natural, being a different stone composition can be used with oil or water.

Oil doesn't attack a resin bond, it prevents the broken down resin binder from migrating off the stone surface. I have used oil on resin Jointering stones and it worked fine if a bit messy. Did a great job of cosmetic polishing due to the thick oily mud it produced, but needed copious amounts of oil to keep the surface clean enough to sharpen with. Only later did I learn the resin in that case has waxes added to it during manufacture that help with heat buildup - the stone is designed/intended to be used at high RPM dry. Boiling out the waxes allowed the stone to be used with water and the refresh rate went way up. These stones, unlike many resin waterstones, are also porous enough the oil could completely migrate out of the stone with a prolonged boil.

Likewise any stone type barring those that might disintegrate when used with oil, can be used with oil or water, or dry for that matter. What is effected is the refresh rate and how it occurs. If you're happy to supply a constant source of added abrasion to refresh the stone surface, then using a waterstone with oil will work fine. It will likely load up and grind slow, but it will work - just not as well as using it per the manufacturer.

Based on the link in your post over on page one this is far from an isolated observation, just hope the stone was able to be recovered....

bucketstove said:
But speaking of soaking in oil, this buy broke his king 1k, and soaked the smaller piece in oil, it didn't explode :D Perhaps a happy accident on a broken stone.
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---First thing noticed was cutting speed was slowed vs water---
----The scratch pattern looks much more coarse then usual micro bevels with the King 1K and water---
---Usually to remove light reflecting this takes around 40-60pps, but this took 140pps with around a pound of force since I noticed the first 20 passes were doing nothing to reduce the size of the reflection on the apex instead of my usual ounces I use.---
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HeavyHanded said:
Not sure why you would claim "oil is superior lubricant reduces friction and extends life of abrasive".
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:) Did we watch the same video?

This is the video I watched Using oil on waterstones and water on oilstones ? - Cliff Stamp

oil in power grinding discussed in Vegetable based cutting fluid – an environmental alternative to grinding process Salete Martins Alves 1 , João Fernando Gomes de Oliveira 2 1 Educational Society of Santa Catarina, Brazil e 2 Nucleus of Advanced Manufacturing, Dept. of Production Engineering, University of São Paulo, Brazil
it says The use of the mineral oil resulted in the highest G ratio (grinding ratio).
update: another one Development of Environmentally Friendly Fluid for CBN Grinding J.F.G. Oliveira 1 (2), S.M. Alves 2 1 Nucleus of Advanced Manufacturing, Dept. of Production Engineering, University of São Paulo, Brazil 2 Educational Society of Santa Catarina (SOCIESC), Brazil


oil versus water in hand grinding is also discussed in Norton Economy vs 420J2 : a little sharpening and stone maintenance - Cliff Stamp

And on this page Cutting fluids/lubricants , 7k passes with water versus double with oil



HeavyHanded said:
Are you claiming oil reduces the compressive or tensile strength of steels, or increases the compressive or tensile strength of the abrasives?
Click to expand...
:) Tensile compressive what? I don't believe I've used those words :D


HeavyHanded said:
You say he said, they said and is good to go. I'd be interested in what you found out when you tried it, before telling anyone they can make this work and possibly causing them to lose a bunch of $ in gear.
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:) Thats some funny stuff HeavyHanded and not at all true, it doesn't even sound truthy , which one of my posts are you reading?
 
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bucketstove said:
:) Did we watch the same video?

You say he said, they said and is good to go. I'd be interested in what you found out when you tried it, before telling anyone they can make this work and possibly causing them to lose a bunch of $ in gear.
Click to expand...

:) Thats some funny stuff HeavyHanded and not at all true, it doesn't even sound truthy , which one of my posts are you reading?
Click to expand...

I'm referring to you throughout confidently quoting a bunch of work primarily by one Cliff Stamp, and some by Caleb McCulloch on a stone that doesn't even bill itself as a waterstone - as somehow being settled science (though far from it) and justification for your opinion. All very fascinating stuff but at no point do you mention first hand use or experience while giving people advice that will almost certainly cost them money if they should follow it.

Additionally you add:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?7,58903

as further proof of your assertions, but in this very post the OP had a lousy outcome. Not a happy accident at all, yet on you go confidently defending poor practices - again without any first hand knowledge. Sounding truthy yet?:D

As for oil vs water vs emulsions and your links, the ones from CS (again) do not differentiate between refresh rate and actual mineral wear. You would need to add detailed measurements of stone thickness vs performance/longevity. As already noted on hard glass bonded stones, oil is the better choice (per Norton even - Amazing! yet again the manufacturer knows what they're talking about and Cliff managed to prove it this time), and has nothing to do with use on waterstones. Does it improve longevity of diamonds?

The other being relative to power grinding with CBN (by virtue of the abrasive shape/properties is more like milling) also not terribly relevant to discussions about vitreous, resin and ceramic bonded stones made with SiC or AlOx at freehand speed where the mineral itself is intended/expected to be consumed in process. Maybe why there's still no consensus among users re the range of lubricants/release agents outside of what is required by a specific binder.

And with that we're back to the top of page one and end of the conversation....:)
 
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