Two new knives

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I am sure that Mr. Von Hagen is an honorable man but equally the Graham Bros deserve the courtesy of being asked to give the ok as their design was, admittedly, Mr. Von Hagen's inspiration.
 
If those knives are too close to other knives to be allowed to be sold, i may as well pull every knive ive ever made back. We are talking about knives here....every knife we make has been made or designed pretty closely at some point in the past. If you come up with something so novel and so technology changing that all knives going forward will be based off it, thats another thing. Chopping the tip off a pointy knife and grinding it into a chisel point is something knivemakers have been doing forever. I do it every time I break the tip off a knife. I will never worry about it infringing on someone else's design simply because they leave the tips off theirs.

Theres many ways to skin a cat, but there are only so many ways to grind a square blade. I dont think anyone should ever be so bold as to claim a blade shape or grind pattern to be their own. If thats allowed, i'd like to patent the plunge and ricasso as my own. You can all send your royalty checks to my home address.

Yes, both blades have square blades. Grind styles are a moot point unless someone wants to show me 10 different ways to grind a square blade with a chisel front and top swedge. One has a thong hole, the other doesnt. One has a forward finger index, the other doesnt. One has a choil through the scale into the ricasso, the other doesnt. One has a notch at the plunge, the other doesnt. One appears to have the cutting edge dropped a bit from the ricasso, the other doesnt. Handle shapes are not the same beyond being shaped like a knife handle. One has exposed tang with thong holes at the base, the other doesnt. Steel choices are different. The only thing I see similar is the general profile of the knife, but my guess is if you went back through pictures of knives, this was done years ago. I could probably find a woodworking tool that is nearly as similar and found commercially as a production tool.

Could permission have been asked for? Sure. Would a "no i do not give you permission" answer have meant this knife couldnt have been made in any legal sense? No way as far as i see it unless we want to re-write the books on knifemaking.

I doubt anyone over at woodcraft.com is mad that their woodworking chisel blade design was modified without permission. Move those bevel grinds up 1" and you have the knife grind we are debating:
web297big.jpg


Sorry if im overreacting, but ive been accused of this before, and think its hogwash.
 
I really don't want to step on anyone's toes by posting here but I can't hold it in. I like to tinker with things knife related, I'm by no means a maker, but I am a thinker. I wouldn't think that someone could claim a design all their own simply because they made it popular or at least mainstream in the knife community, and I aboslutely agree that every design has been copied at some point. ESPECIALLY fixed blades. Folders are definately a different animal, but throughout history there's been something like this I'm sure. Has everyone that's made a dagger a copy-cat? Or a clip-point folder (Buck 110)? I don't think they are. They're taking a design that functions for it's intended purpose and maybe other purposes as well. What about a wharncliffe? I'm assuming that the gentleman who designed that was named wharncliffe, and last I checked a saeax (spelling?) looks a lot like it. I'm 100% with Mr. Schott and Scott. It's been done before and this is a place I come to to see how the makers in our community are doing and sometimes what designs I like and don't. I don't think it's fair to Mr. Von Hagen to call him out like that and accuse him of the equivelant of knife plagarism.

Forgive me if it's not my place to say.
 
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For the sake of visual clarification.

Honestly looking at the two, Theres no chance I'd ever mix the two up if I saw them in a shop. There is a level of.... I guess I'd call it clear cut machining present in graham knives that is very distinct and immediately noticable. I think there are valid points on both sides, wich are easily bridged and made less important/heated by talking to the initial maker (or inspiration). Just a "you have a problem with what I'm doing? Okay, lets talk about it."

That being said, I'm not actually a maker, so I should probably shut up now :)
 

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No, you shouldn't shut up. These forums are for discussion. Your pictures actually illustrate a very good point. Thank you for taking the time to post them.

These forums are not, however, for fighting and name calling. I've been contacted by both Tom Krein and The Graham Brothers off camera regarding my earlier post. I think everyone agrees that this is a place of business for many of us, and it should be kept civil. When its time to not be civil anymore, go behind "closed doors" as it were, and "discuss" things.

Scott
 
Actually, that design is almost identical to a large number of chisel tip dive knifes. Probably not a patentable design at all...

Make it out of Stainless instead of O1 and it would be an awesome dive knife... maybe put a couple serrations in there to snag and cut line.

-Sean
 
Just for the record,

Mr. Krein commented on a post that we can not see now, the original post was edited out.

We (Graham Knives) never said that he (Van Hagen) couldn't make it or needed to ask our permission to make it or that he needed to remove them from the for sale section. For that matter he could legaly make an exact copy of it and sell them by the thousands.


I hate threads like this and will do now my part in letting it this thread die out.
 
Grahamknives said:
Just for the record,

Mr. Krein commented on a post that we can not see now, the original post was edited out.

We (Graham Knives) never said that he (Van Hagen) couldn't make it or needed to ask our permission to make it or that he needed to remove them from the for sale section. For that matter he could legaly make an exact copy of it and sell them by the thousands.


I hate threads like this and will do now my part in letting it this thread die out.
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:thumbup: Thanks for chiming in. My comments were more directed at those attacking the OP. Ive had similar attacks emailed to me and one threatened to "expose" me for the copying I had done, only to find later that my knife was made before his beloved design. I may have overreated with my response, but do feel strongly about this. Im glad you chimed in to set things straight. This was a problem between the OP and someone who chose to make it thier beef, not between you and the OP.
 
But my point of view is it should be aired out. Just as it has been done here. A forum is a discussion area, for the good and the bad items I would assume. The moderators are here to dissaprove of content or remove.

If someone is making a crappy product and ripping of the knife society I would like to know. Just a they publish lemon car reports.

I have learned something and it looks like the contributions from various people have all learned and aired out what they think. I think everything that was put here has been fair, it's a horrible situation for everyone, but free speech doesn't end because your on this forum.

As a knife buyer, I see many different knife makers using the same type of designs and technigues in various forms, shapes and sizes. You'd have to be an Albert Einstein to come up with something all together new every time you make a knife.


Another point of view for the Graham Brothers might be at least Von Hagen made a top quality knife and limited to two of them. I assume it wasn't meant to be a main stream item for him. I would be more upset if some off shore company did a knock off selling thousands of junk knives some how affecting sales and reputation.

My thoughts.
 
I count the Graham Brothers as friends of mine...so take the following with a grain of salt.


Jon/Josh may not remember this...but a few years ago I called them when I made this knife:

http://www.kosterknives.com/lilmoby.htm

as well as its "little brother" here:
http://www.kosterknives.com/kazor.htm


I asked them if this was an infringement on their designs and they said "no". If they had said "yes" I would have taken it down off my website immediately. And I made these knives before I even knew them. Someone I knew said "hey that looks like the Graham Bros stuff"...so I contacted them that same day.


Now, my two knives above are (imho) quite different from the Graham Bros stuff...


Anyway, I don't know Von Hagen and I don't want to take sides.....yet

Who knows...perhaps it's just a simple error in judgment?


I think it would have been prudent to talk to Jon/Josh ahead of time and ask for permission to "explore" a similar design. Then show it to them for feedback. They are great guys and easy to talk to!

It's not about lawyers and patents...it's about respect, honor and personal integrity.



I would not dream of making a "52100 pronghorn hunter" without first talking to Ed Fowler about it.
 
Josh - just saw your post - you're a class act. :thumbup:
Thanks for taking the higher road.
 
Also, regarding the chisel-tip grind. You are right - it is not patentable.

However, the OP stated in their first post that they were specifically drawing their inspiration from the Graham Bros Razel (not a chisel, nor a dive knife)....that, to me, warrants a simple courtesy phone call to Jon/Josh.

I don't see any legal case here (for either side). And, like Josh, hope this falls off soon....
 
I only recently joined this forum. I was told that it was a place where knife makers can get together and show off their work and that it was a place to get knives from up and coming knife makers. I came across this thread a couple days ago and have been following it, quietly.

I decided to see what all the ruckus was about so I took Mr. Palmer up on his offer and he sent me photos of his knives. Sent me so many that it took more than a couple e-mails to send them all. Then I went back and looked at the Blade Magazines February edition and saw ALL of "The Lopped-Off Look" knives featured in the article as well as at the Graham Brothers web site. Sure there are similarities. As someone else asked here, how many different ways are there to make a knife with a lopped of top? But I can clearly see that they are two different knives.

Then I looked at the April edition of the magazine. While re-reading the article, "The Brothers Graham," there was one thing that jumped out at me. On page 56 of the April edition of Blade Magazine there is a picture of the Graham Brothers. One of them (Josh?) is wearing a t-shirt with the logo for Krien Knives.

Just food for thought on everyone. Is Tom Krien "defending the honor" of a fellow knife maker or is he simply trying to bully anyone who tries to make a knife anywhere close to his buddy's?
 
Tom Krein said:
Rick,
I find it interesting that you went back and edited your first post! Unfortunately for you it was quoted in the #4 post!

If you felt so good about your actions why edit out the fact that you said you copied the desigh???

Editing out your posts is a COWARDLY way to act! It makes out responses suddenly be out of context!!!

NICE TRY!!

Tom
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Grahamknives said:
Just for the record,

Mr. Krein commented on a post that we can not see now, the original post was edited out.
Click to expand...

Actually, Tom is right. The original post is quoted in post number 4 of this thread. Anyone reading here will be able to see what was written. I DID go back and edit the opening post here because I saw that I had ruffled some feathers and that was nowhere CLOSE to my intention when I made these knives!! I saw a design that I liked and added my own artistry to it. I said in the original post that I saw the design on the cover of Blade Magazine.
I was not trying to hide anything by editing the original post. I was trying to soothe a situation not add fuel to a fire!!

For anyone who wants to read what was written, I save everything on my computer so I am adding it right here, again. OR if there is any question as to whether this is really what was written, PLEASE refer to post #4 of this thread, written by rswooding.


*** Original Post For This Thread***

Wow! I'm done with these two knives! I saw this design on the cover of Blade Magazine and knew that I HAD TO do this. A lot of work went into these knives. You knife collectors out there... I'll bet you don't have one of these yet! I sure wish that I could afford to have one. Eventually I will make more and keep one for myself but that won't happen for a while, not until I have time to commit over a week to one knife again.


These knives are currently available in the KnifeMakers Forum – Fixed Blades: For Sale. Check them out.

Thanks for looking,
Rick Palmer

***End of Original Post***

Just wanted to clear that up.
Thank you for the oppurtunity to do that,
Rick
 
You guys should stop worrying about fellow knife makers using "your" design elements and keep your eyes on china where all our second hand steel is disapearing to and coming back as junk copies.

There are bigger concerns in the world than whether Mr. Von Hagen has used someone elses' "ideas".
 
rubik said:
Is Tom Krien "defending the honor" of a fellow knife maker or is he simply trying to bully anyone who tries to make a knife anywhere close to his buddy's?
Click to expand...

You signed up on BF just to malign Tom Krein?!? Great second post....:jerkit:

Tom is one of the finest people, let alone knifemakers, to be found. For you to come in here, stir the pot some more and then state that he might be a 'bully' is pure BS, IMHO. :thumbdn:

As for 'defending the honor' of a friend and fellow knifemaker, what's wrong with that? Something you wouldn't do for a friend, eh? :rolleyes:
 
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