Two new toys - really cool!

Santi

Santi

Joined
Sep 12, 2000
Messages
2,483
The Elephant Hooks . . .

To be used by the mahout, to command and control of the elephant.

Not rare - but hard to find.
"Custom" made ;)
Forged leaf-spring.
Lenght of the hawk-bill 7" approx.
Handle is a rattan.

(I took them right from the hands of the mahouts--with a little donations--so their buddy elephant could last a few more days, since each need about 60 Kgs. of food per meal, so I've been told.)

546amh



546ao8



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You could call it a Thai TomaHOOK. :)

Lovely!
:D :D :D
 
Glad you´re happy with them. I guess the elephants aren´t.:grumpy: These are definitely not cool. :barf:

Sorry for the harsh tone.
 
These are definitely not cool.
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?? They're not flensing knives.

They're used to control the elephant, like a bit or a bull ring. Elephants are enormous, with extremely thick skin - if the hooks were irritating, the elephant could simply squash the mahout without giving it another thought.

Animals are animals, these are not abusive, and people that don't depend on elephants to plow their roads, build their homes, or clear their land should probably think twice before commenting on the practices of other cultures.

/thread drift off/

Interesting tools.
 
Pretty lethal looking. Might discourage some of the less friendly wildlife also. Might.
 
Animals are animals,
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At the expense of this thread going way off topic, don't forget that people are also animals and that if we were advocating keeping the road crew out on the highway in check so they weren't off smoking cigarettes as much using these I doubt you'd have the same attitude. Thick skin doesn't translate to non-feeling skin. Elephants have very sensitive skin, in fact, and I have a feeling that regardless of the thickness of one's skin, having these things used to control you is probably unpleasant to say the least. That attitude of "they're just animals" is really weird to me.
 
If the elephants could not feel these things sticking their flesh, how would they help "control" them?


These things have no place on this forum. :mad: :barf:
 
If the elephants could not feel these things sticking their flesh, how would they help "control" them?
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If they injured the elephant, they'd be counterproductive. Yes, elephants have sensitive skin - that's why they're effective. Because they look wicked, we jump to the conclusion they are instruments of torture. Ever watched one in use? If not, you've no basis to judge.

We brand cattle. We use cattle prods. We use bits on horses, to manipulate them with discomfort, and whip them to get them to go faster. Should we stop, "because animals have feelings too"?

The idea that "animals are people too" astounds me. Unless you are Vegan, you are guilty of exploiting animals for human use. Even Vegans benefit indirectly.

I'm done, this thread is doomed. I am reminded just how wide the gulf can be between liberalism and reality.
 
Humans are exploited for human use.....Oh! How wide the gulf between conservatism and compassion.
 
Regardless how the elephants and people feel about them, those are some very unique and interesting tools. Quite a souvenier. You could hang them in your library as 'conversation' pieces, but be prepared for the ineveitable 'conversation' drift...

Best Wishes,
Bob
 
I somehow doubt Santi will be hooking any elephant legs with these hooks.

Very interesting stuff- whether looked at from a cultural or historical perspective. Thanks for sharing Santi!

I feel compelled to add- I don't see how liberalism and how it compares to reality and/or conservatism as it compares to compassion has any place in this thread.

elephant hooks, thats what this is about! And maybe a discussion on cruelty to animals, I can see the relevance. but using broad terms like the two above is like sending out invitations to a flame fest.

For myself, I believe that any mahout who uses his hook in a violent or pain inducing fashion is a very stupid person indeed and richly deserving ofwhat he gets. How many of you have seen an angry elephant?

He'd quickly be one dead mahout. :)

I'd like to think that the majority of them love the elephants they work with and train and go out of their way to see that they are not in pain or, as proven by Santi's recent purchase, even going hungry for a few days.
 
I'll post a pic if I can find the pic, but several mahouts were recently killed, violently, by a young bull elephant.

And elephants have great memories.

So, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want several tons of pee-oed animal chargin at me!
 
liberalism and reality
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LOL! I'm the furthest thing you can get from a liberal (well, maybe not the furthest, but you get the idea)! I'm compassionate about animals, so sue me! :D
 
roughedges said:
I'd like to think that the majority of them love the elephants they work with and train and go out of their way to see that they are not in pain or,
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Correct.
From what I knew, the mahout and his elephant works together until death do them apart.

The hook is just a tool. (Though it looks pointy, that's just a BLUNT point.) Might be comparable to the spur used with horse.
Sometimes the mahout uses it, sometimes doesn't because it's already a symbol of "power" that an elephant recognize.

FYI: We use a LOT of elephants during the Tsunami disaster in Phuket, Thailand, when no bulldozer could get into the area. And I'm sure without that "lethal looking" hooks, a job to save lives must have been a lot harder.

We in Thailand work with elephant for hundreds years, I can guarantee you that that hook is not meant for torturing the animals.

Sorry that this thread turns out this way.
 
Santi,

Thanks for sharing the cool pics. You have nothing to be sorry about.

I'm surprised and disappointed that no one took the time or made the effort to ASK Santi how the tools are used and whether or not they cause the animal pain before they made up their minds. Making uninformed assumptions about cultures and practices foreign to one's experience is definitely not cool :barf:
 
Pretty laughable how our 'sheeple' attitudes raised their ugly heads when we were suddenly presented with unfamiliar, exotic and dangerous looking tools! :D I'll bet these hooks don't raise an eyebrow in the lands where they are EDC. Like a carpenter with a hammer....
'pologies for my earlier comment.
 
Here's what the Thai government has to say in an official press release concerning the treatment of elephants in their country: "By nature elephants are temperamental, disobedient, and sometimes they can be violent. A mahout carries a hook with him when he trains an elephant. From the start of elephant training an elephant learns that a hook can cause pain. In due course a hook becomes a mere symbolic gesture for obedience from elephants, and mahouts have no need for their actual use..."

So, in other words, they are used to inflict pain on the elephant when they are typically taken from the mother (usually around age 3 when they stop suckling), then the mere threat of the tool is enough to curb some behaviors. Kind of like how a puppy who has been beaten will shrink away from you as you reach out to pet him. Merek, I'm sure these tools don't raise an eyebrow where they're used, but that doesn't make their use any better. The difference is that carpenters don't use hammers to beat up animals, generally. Unless there is no difference between a piece of wood and an elephant, then the anology doesn't really work.

For the record, I'm not accusing Santi of being a jerk or an animal abuser, etc, nor am I trying to say everyone in a certain country is guilty of this behavior, but if you travel to other countries you'll see some pretty appalling behavior inflicted on animals and the locals don't even give it a second thought. That doesn't make it any better or justify it. We live in a very insulated world in Western society and I understand that, but that doesn't mean it's right to beat animals to subject them to do the work we want them to do simply because we can and, heck, they're there so why not? I'm sure there are ethical ways to treat "work animals" and hopefully that's what is more normal in places like Thailand, but you can find out plenty of information about the treatment of elephants throughout Asia, as well as what these hooks can be used for (if you have a stomach for the pictures and videos), if you're so inclined.
 
Elephants are not to be crossed, they can protect themselves if those hooks ever gave pain. Insurance statistics indicate that elephant keeper in zoos is in the top tier of dangerous jobs. That's not because the animal is mean by nature, just that it can readily decide to do what it wants. Males can get mean as they get old, but hey that's true with most mammals.
 
"Kind of like how a puppy who has been beaten will shrink away from you as you reach out to pet him."

Or perhaps like a well-trained animal will respond to voice commands. I admit I don't know exactly where the line is crossed in elephant training from training to abuse, but I wouldn't equate all training with abuse.


"The difference is that carpenters don't use hammers to beat up animals, generally."

Simply an inflammatory choice of words chosen for effect, someone beating an animal with a hammer. Effective but I'd say not very accurate.


"if you travel to other countries you'll see some pretty appalling behavior inflicted on animals and the locals don't even give it a second thought. "

Unfortunately, one does not need to travel to "other" countries to see some pretty appalling behavior inflicted on animals and the locals not seeming to care about it.


"but that doesn't mean it's right to beat animals to subject them to do the work we want them to do simply because we can and, heck, they're there so why not?"

I don't recall anyone stating it's right to beat animals and subject them to do our work simply because we can. Keeping animals healthy is a lot of work, people don't keep work animals around simply because "they can". I'd wager that if people who used elephants to work had the means to use machinery they most certainly would. Training and maintaining work elephants would seem to be a lot of work, I doubt people use them just because they can. But if it's what they have it's what they'll use, same way with most cultures.


"you can find out plenty of information about the treatment of elephants throughout Asia, as well as what these hooks can be used for (if you have a stomach for the pictures and videos), if you're so inclined."

You can find plenty of information about the poor treatment of all kinds of domesticated animals right here in the good 'ole USA.
 
Thanks for showing your new prizes. They are interesting. I think they are perfectly appropriate to have here.

There are vast cultural gaps between societies familiar with the ways of horses and consuming cattle and societies that depend on elephants and don't eat beef. In these parts prairie oysters are considered a delicacy. The harvesting of prairie oysters is not very civilized. I remember a classic story by George Orwell. I forget whether it is true and autobiographical or whether he fabricated it. It's called Shooting an Elephant. It says a lot about cultural prejudice and gaps:
http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/887/
 
The idea that elephants are big, strong animals capable of protecting themselves if they want is a great idea. Do you apply the same argument to women and children who stay in abusive relationships? "They could do something about it if they want, so they must not be too upset by the treatment they're getting."

You can find plenty of information about the poor treatment of all kinds of domesticated animals right here in the good 'ole USA.
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That's absolutely correct and just as sad, I would agree.
 
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