Two SOB's

Ferret

Ferret

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Joined
Jan 20, 2000
Messages
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A couple of bad apples who cast a shadow over the numerous excellent dealings I've had with forum (this and other) members and dealers...
Names: Scott McDonough and Hank Greenberg.
Deals: very similar...each had a knife for sale in March...I sent each the $ which arrived safely but I never got a knife in return
Extra Details: Thanks to some great support from BF members I got each one's phone number (after numerous emails were ignored). It only took one phone call to each and they magically awoke from their slumber and emailed me with promises of refunds. That was two months ago, still no money or knives.
I empathise to a certain extent with these guys as they insist the knives were sent, but regardless I never recieved either knife and there's no reason to dish out the silent treatment.
I could let one deal slip thru as bad luck but the combined amount involves just over $250 and that starts to burn a bit.
Tempted to post their emails so they can be blasted from numerous fronts...
wink.gif
 
We've been down this road before, huh Ferret? Scott, who's forum name is clip point, has had troubles in the past but seems to have finally fixed most of his screw-ups. Unfortunately for you, he hasn't fixed them all.

The bottom line is this - If the knives didn't arrive, and in the condition promised, the sender should refund your money. Period. If they failed to get tracking/delivery confirmation numbers, or didn't purchase insurance, then it should be their loss, not yours.

Good luck.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Ferret,Sorry to hear that you still have not received your knife from Mr Greenberg.Remember I live about 20 minutes away from him, let me know if I can be of any assistance.PatM
 
Ferret, when I spoke to Scott, lo these many days past he said he hadn't been on the forums for quite a while back then, traveling or what I don't know, but he did come through on the other guys stuff, so maybe your's did get lost...but it sure would be nice if he responded to your emails?

G2

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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...

G2 LeatherWorks
 
Just to reiterate what Senator pointed out: get insurance and tracking/delivery confirmation to protect yourself in case of loss. I always pay for both when I sell and insist on it when buying, even if I have to pay a little extra. My goal is to protect me and my customers. Use a USPS money order for payments, which gives you the power of the fed since the seller is guilty of mail fraud if the merchandise is not delivered. You would be amazed at how agressive the USPS is at pursuing mail fraud, even for small amounts. The threat of a felony charge will usually get the attention of the perpetrator. If something gets legitimately lost in the mail, I refund the buyer's money and seek redress from the USPS via the insurance claim. Delivery confirmation gives me some assurance that the package was delivered so that a thief cannot fraudulently claim the merchandise never arrived. For the really paranoid I recommend registered or certified mail, which must be signed for upon receipt.

Fox
 
Fox, you'd reckon the extra $15 I allow for shipping from the States would buy some insurance, right?
Pat, mebbe if you get a chance you could let Hank know there's some upstart from down under badmouthing him on this forum, it might rattle his cage a bit, thanks (and thanks for the offer)
smile.gif
I still have his number if you need it.
Gary, you may recall I even came to Scott's defence ages ago...more fool me.
frown.gif
 
AMEN,AMEN,AMEN!! I can't agree more about tracking/insurance! It's not just for the buyer, but the seller too. If you send an item and it doesn't arrive you can recoup your loss and the recipient will have to swear they never received it. Not knowing each other face to face, I think it reassures both parties. And with postal service as poor as it is it only makes sense. I had the PO leave a $2000.00 knife on my doorstep, the box not covered up or anything. I felt fortunate to have it there when I got home. Sorry to hear about your experiences Ferret, hopefully they'll come through.
 
Originally posted by Senator:
The bottom line is this - If the knives didn't arrive, and in the condition promised, the sender should refund your money. Period. If they failed to get tracking/delivery confirmation numbers, or didn't purchase insurance, then it should be their loss, not yours.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Actually, it is the responsibility of the Buyer to purchase Insurance and not the Seller (unless the Seller promised it beforehand) Kelly. It is an extra expense.

Now, if the Buyer paid for the Insurance and the Seller forgot or simply pocketed the extra buck sent for Insurance, then it is his baby, he is responsible for reimbursement to the Buyer, don't you agree?

When you buy or trade something to someone, it is your responsibility to provide extra money and explicit instructions for insurance, or do you feel the Seller should be responsible for everything and take any loss that could be incurred during transit?

I have lost 6 packages in 2 years, all of them Priority Mail, none were insured because they were not that valuable. Maybe it is just Maryland or my crappy luck. But these were things I was sending to people to try out, I was not selling, if I were selling, I would tell the person right up front, "Buy Insurance or I am not responsible for anything lost in the mail."

This is hitting home to me really hard as I am about ready to get my perfect Bidding record on E-Bay creamed by an irate Australian because USPS Global Priority Mail has not made it there in 21 days or so...and it was sent. I paid him extra to insure my knife, which I will now never receive thanks to the lazy, shiftless bastards who transport the mail screwing everything up...

Mail gets lost, let the buyer beware. If this dude paid for insurance and his knives did not arrive, the two fellas in question are probably screwing him over...he should be reimbursed...but to demand that the Seller be responsible for extra cost incurred by forking out the dough for insurance is simply not fair.
 
I allowed $15 for the postage of each knife, which was an amount negotiated and agreed on prior to me sending the $. As I'm paying for a knife I expect the buyer to do whatever is reasonable to ensure the knives arrive and usually emphasise the need for some kind of tracking number so if things go pearshaped the package can be found. There's a bit more in the background to these deals, where one seller gave the impression he never had the knife in the first place.
BTW, 21 days is a long time to Australia but not completely out of the question...once a knife from Canada took 2 months to arrive for no particular reason, and a money order I sent to Dennis Wright once took about 6 weeks. Thankfully it doesn't happen much but hopefully your deal will still turn out OK
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I think it is the responsiblity of the seller to purchase insurance unless he/she is willing to cover the price of the knife out of their pocket if it gets lost in shipping. It is the seller's responsibility to ensure either the product arrives, or refund the buyer's money, period. I never ship without insurance and delivery confirmation. Once I skimped on insurance and it taught me an expensive lesson. Once was enough for me.

FWIW, I have had good transactions with Ferret, he is an honest individual in my opinion.

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Chief’s Cutlery Specializing in Microtech Knives
 
I agree with Chief,it is the sellers responsability to insure the packages.The seller has the right to pass on the cost for the insurance to the buyer when discussing the deal and shipping charges.When I place an ad,I either say price includes shipping or does not.If I say it includes shipping I take into account the very small amount that is extra for the insurance and I buy it regardless if it comes up or not in the discussion.Even if the buyer refused to pay for insurance,I would either buy it anyway or simply refuse to ship it without it and sell the knife someone else.It's just plain stupid not to insure a package.Chow,Ralph
 
Yeah, Ferret's Cool. Straight up honest and...patient.
smile.gif
Anyone can deal with him in confidence, anytime.

Arguments can fly about whose responsibility it is to obtain insurance on packages sent via whichever carrier one chooses, but it isn't all that cut-and-dried.

It's true that some sellers make insurance optional and require the buyer to pay extra for it but there should be disclosure, up front, about that and it needs to be agreed to ahead of time.

One manufacturer we all know very well has just changed their policy regarding insurance. It used to be automatic and included in the price of the product/shipping charges. Now, however, they have just announced that insurance charges will be extra and, if we don't want to pay the extra cost, we, the buyers, accept full responsibility for the safe arrival of the merchandise. They notified us of the change some time ago so they no longer have the responsibility.

The reality is, however, that if a dealer wants to remain in business, (especially a small dealer) that dealer needs to make sure that the package arrives where it was sent or that a replacement/refund is provided forthwith. I never send anything uninsured unless I can afford to relace it out-of-pocket and the cost of the insurance is built into the price. (It has to be. It isn't cheap and the costs add up after awhile.) Tracking is also essential.

It's good business but it isn't required under any law, (except the law of self-preservation).

David paid extra for the insurance so he has every right to expect recompense.



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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
(Don't click, just call)
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
 
Mail does get lost, no boubt about that. You ever notice though, many people have a good reputation on these forums...however, the bad apples mentioned above, and those like them ALWAYS seem to have an excuse. Many of them, after weeks of silence say 'the mail lost it'. I mean, there have been peole on here that you think the post office is running a conspiracy to lose THEIR pakages all the time. I would buy that excuse 1, or maybe 2 times...but when the same person refuses to make good and use that excuse over and over, I dont buy it. My responsibility as a seller is to ensure that a knife I sell gets there. That means I have to insure it. If I chose not to, then I would have to come up with the money myself...insurace is cheap, knives arent. BTW, everybody I have dealt with here has been great.



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Richard
icq 61363141
Just some knife pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=110070&a=4518795
UPDATED and REVISED
 
Thanks for the kind words (esp John & Dennis)...FWIW, for some reason the Post Office here has a problem registering packages going overseas (domestic is fine) and so I've often sent things without insurance to the States. The difference is I incorporate between $5 and $10 in the price of knives (as opposed to the $15 I pay extra when I'm the one buying)and I fully expect to have to cough up a refund if the knife goes missing. One hasn't gone astray YET!
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Don - All I know is this... As a buyer, if the knife I order doesn't arrive, I don't expect to pay for it. If the knife I order arrives in less-than-satisfactory condition, I don't expect to pay the agreed upon price (and might expect a total refund.)

As far as which party pays for the insurance, in the end the buyer always pays!!! Now, that doesn't mean that he'll always realize it. It might be built into the price. If a dealer/seller offers free shipping and insurance, those costs are built into the final price - whether the buyer realizes it or not. However, I've gotten into the habit of putting a price on the knife I'm selling, plus actual shipping costs for Priority Mail with delivery confirmation and insurance. I just use the USPS's website rate calculator to determine the cost ahead of time.

As I stated before, the bottom line is that the buyer should expect to receive the knife in the condition as stated by the seller. If not, the seller should refund the money. Period.

There are exceptions. I just sold several knives to a forumite who specifically requested that I NOT add insurance to the package. This person lives in a VERY rural area of the country. I assume that he didn't want insurance because nobody is home during normal delivery hours, and the hassles of getting to the post office to sign for the package is much greater than the risk of having the package stolen from his mailbox. He offered to take the risk upon himself. That's fine by me.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Yep, sure seems convenient to lay blame on the USPS.....I've shipped to Australia, Canada, France, UK, Ireland, Taiwan, Seria, BN....a militray boat in Germany somewhere....blah, blah, blah........most went out uninsured because the buyer does not want to pay duties and customs.......guess what...none missing yet........shipped a BM730 to NJ....never showed up
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The old USPS lost it excuse is a hard one to buy unless you really know the buyer is being straight up.... I sympathize with your loss Ferret....I know it is frustrating nd costly to you.

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Knives & Things
Mike Payne
 
It is the responsibility of the Buyer to fork out the extra bucks for insurance, unless the Seller agreed otherwise as a part of the deal! I can't believe you guys!

That is just like saying, "I want to buy your knife..."

O.K., that will be $7.00 for UPS Ground Shipping...

"No, I want you to send it UPS 2nd Day Air..."

O.K., that will be about $7.00 more.

"That's bullsh*t!"<~Indignant Buyer who wants the Seller to fork out dough.

Insurance is extra. Some of these knives I have seen sold/traded on BFC have been several hundred dollars...

From the time he let's go of that package at the Post Office and he has proof of that in the form of a receipt, if you were the tightwad that did not want to kick a couple extra bucks for insurance, it is your loss. If, IF, he has proof he sent it. In this particular case, it looks as if someone received a screwing...namely Ferret. That is a bad thing.

Basically what you are saying is, without a prior agreement, you can demand the Seller take a couple of bucks off the knife.

By the way fellas, if someone screws you over, and they used the USPS, it is a crime, call the Postmaster in your area and they will investigate it. The Seller will wish he had never been born.

One infamous A-Hole on BFC liked to ship knives the other person did not want(For example, he would offer a Benchmade Nimravus for sale and when you received it, it would be a smaller, BM Nimravus Cub). Save your E-Mails, and if this happens to you and the person uses the USPS, it is a federal crime, fraud. Burn them at the stake...for all of us. Call the Postmaster, they will investigate, if the other person does not have a receipt...he is going to fry...
 
Lemme see if I understand you, Don. You order a knife from Dealer A for $100 (including insurance.) They tell you it shipped on Monday and cash in the money order you sent. The knife never shows up. Dealer A send you a copy of the insurance stub and tells you, "Good luck." You're happy with the outcome of that transaction? You never received a knife, but are out $100 and many hours of your time dealing with the postal authorities. You might get your money back six months from now. Will you gladly do business with Dealer A again?

It's a good thing that the dealers in this thread have stated that it's their problem until the knife arrives safe and sound in the customer's hands. How long do you think a knife dealer (or Eddie Bauer, Land's End, or J.C Penney) would last with business practices like that?
 
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