Ultimate Sword Design

Triquetra

Triquetra

Joined
Mar 7, 2002
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What is the best all around or most versitile sword blade design and why. Some designs might be great for the tropics where people are scantily clothed, but would these same swords or blades work well against heavy clothing? Would it be the straight thrusting style of the Roman Gladius, the curved Mongolian styles, the Japanese Katana? How would a long Khukuri like a 30" Kobra fair. Would this work against heavy clothing since thrusts might be limited or is flow hampered and recovery time greater than you might have with a curved saber type blade. Is the straight simple style of usage like I would think one would use with a straight type blade like the Gladius or one like the knights of old carried be the best compromise? Which type has the most pros in the most varied situations if we were back to living by the sword (heavy metal armor excluded)? This question might be more appropriate on say a sword forum, but I like the opinions of the formites here and would also like some Khukuri comparisons and comments. I would think that a Khukuri like blade would be a H*ll of a chopper but that the move would require more commitement and a lot slower recovery or follow up than say a Katana.
Chinese broadsword, Calvary Saber, Katana, Barong, Khuk, Gladius, Tulwar, Butterfly Sword?
 
I dont know if imagining an ultimate design would be as effective as simply analyzing the swords in use cross-culturally...

I think WW1 was the last time swords were issued for actual fighting use by any Western Army.
Those blades were mostly curved sabers and straight sabers.
(the German sabers were wide and good for chopping, the American "Patton" saber was a thrusting sword.)
For the trenches, there was also a unique sword issued for the Welsh Fusiliers. It was short and leaf-bladed. (The DeWalden Sword - My all time favorite)

The Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, Arabs, they all seemed to favor a curved, single-edged sword between 22 and 30 inches in length.

There are many many effective sword desgins, but this one seems to be popular throughout history...
 
"Ultimate Sword Design"

No such thing.

Every design has had a purpose.

Every design has had a reason that it replaced a previous design.

Best theoretical design at a time / place purpose in history,
sure.

"Which type has the most pros in the most varied situations if we were back to living by the sword "

fwiw

thrustable
heavy enough to chop
Light enough for long carry
long enough to reach
not so long as to hit unintended targets
grip that allows 2nd hand assist
double edged ?


otoh ...................... ?


"would also like some Khukuri comparisons and comments."

well
25" oal chitlangi
with both fullers
slimmed more toward a sirupati
somewhat less overall curve
sharpened halfway back on top
somewhat longer bell-butt grip

. . . . . . .

! sounds a bit like a heavyish shortish yatagan

one of my favorite blades




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Swords of the world are like peoples of the world, each has evolved in adaptation to it's environment. There is no "best", each of them are best for their specific time and place. In this age, swords are little more than a nostalgic remnant of the past. Choose the finest sword the world has to offer, forged by the greatest of masters, and I'll still give you "two to the chest and one to the head" with no more than miniscule movements of my right index finger. Not very heroic or glamorous, but there it is. Sadly, the days when a man looked his adversary in the eye are no more.

Sarge
 
weapons reflect the society you are in at the time, our current society is geared to producing firearms and ammo in vast quantities, so as said, they will currently out perform a man with a sword, there are still the odd occasions when a sharp pointy thing can make a difference on a limited scale. in more recent modern conflicts there have been rare occurances where combat was close enough & ammo low enough to make a blade the choice, but rare is still not zero occurances, not likely enough to make it worth while to carry a sword, but other than the issue bayonet, a good easily accessable multi-purpose knife like a mid-sized kukh might be of use, or a good bowie. 99.999% used to open mre's & chop firewood to boil tea, but stilll .0001% used to poke into bad guys. better to have it & not need it than to need it and not have it. of course your modern touchy-feely micromanagement remf's will not let you carry one as it might scare the sheeple. (and 75% of the troops would probably get tired of carrying it & trade it for chocolate anyway)
 
In the study of edged weapons it seems to me that the single edged sword is the most logical for an untrained fighter since the human shoulder will most easily swing a chopper. Thrusting is less natural than swinging.

In Chinese armor there are basiically two types of swords the Dao (Single edged with slightly curved blade) and the Jian (double edged straight sword).

The Dao were used by the military with two major types. The elite used a lighterweight blade that was carried with the hilt pointing backwards so that when drawn in a semi-circular movement, the blade would naturally chop downward in one movement. These were called, depending on the period and design of blade, willow-leaf or goosequill sabes.

The common and less trained soldier carried a single edged blade of heavier weight that had a mauch larger and heavier front section. This was very effective for an untrained soldier to hack away at the enemy. This was called an Ox-Tail saber.

The Jian was traditionally a gentleman or scholar weapon who were very skilled swordsmen. The long slim double - edged blade was used both for thrusting and stabbing, but the really skilled guys would use it to nick opponent's veins, tendons and arteries until he could no longer fight.

The goal of the extremely skilled Jian swordsman was to cut off the right thumb of the opponent, while he was holding his sword, so that he could never hold a sword again.

It was considered a bit gross to just kill your opponent outright --- unless you were in a hurry!

I have examples if anyone is interested in seeing some pictures, including a real Ming dynasty Jian blade with modern dress.
 
With cavalry sabres, stabbing was usually found to be more lethal than slashing - though heavy slashing swords made for more gruesome wounds. A severe laceration would (often) heal, and even lopped off limbs didn't always translate into a fatality. But a poke through a vital organ ...

That's also why rapiers and rapier technique focused on "the point," rather than the edge. And why duelling swords followed suit.
 
Bill Marsh said:
I have examples if anyone is interested in seeing some pictures, including a real Ming dynasty Jian blade with modern dress.
Click to expand...
I would love to see some pictures posted of the different types.
 
My thought has always been that a slightly curved saber-style sword similar in contour to the Cossack saber, with one third of the back edge sharpened, would be close to ideal. Width of 1-1/2" and thickness of around 3/8" to 7/16"; and blade length about thirty to thirty-four inches (depending on the height and reach of the wielder) would be the best compromise for cut and thrust. We don't need no fancy basket hilts, just a nice recurved grip. An alternative would be a kopis style (Greek or Celtic) pattern. No accident that the kukh has a similar, though more extreme and agriculturally oriented blade design that sacrifices a bit of thrust for a lot of chop. All in all, though, I'd prefer the standard Cossack pattern sword...in nice Wootz steel!
 
Since the OP mentioned "if we were back to living by the sword..." I'll refrain from the firearms comments.

The ultimate sword design? There isn't one. There are highly specialized designs, there are general purpose designs, and there is everything in between. The history of weapons is unusually honest compared to some other topics because if weapons didn't work well in their particular culture, they tended not to be used for long.

One place to look is where there are common features between different cultures, as has been mentioned by others already. The single handed single edged saber (with or without a sharpened false edge) was used by many different armies for a very long time - obviously, there's something about this design that works. OTOH, we have the estoc (also known as the tuck, in English) which was for all intents and purposes a sharpened steel rod with a guard and a handle on the end - relatively efficient as a can opener against heavily armored opponents but hardly efficient for anything else.

What I'm trying to say is, if you're looking for a good design, look at patterns of swords that were used for long periods of time, especially in varying circumstances. If multiple cultures used them, it's a good sign that it's an efficient design.

Stay away from "dead ends" in the sword's evolutionary tree: greatswords, falchions, tucks and the like; they dead ended because they were overspecialized and there was no way to go but backwards.

My own personal view? I'd rather have a sword and a shield than a slightly larger sword. Single handed and bastard swords are my preferance...but that's just preferance.

Always remember that, then and now, whether with swords or guns, the better man usually wins - the equipment isn't as important as the skill. Sometimes the lesser guy gets lucky or brings a lot of friends but skill is more important than gear.

Good luck with your search.
 
Bill Marsh said:
I have examples if anyone is interested in seeing some pictures, including a real Ming dynasty Jian blade with modern dress.
Click to expand...

Bill, it appears that several of us would like to see your swords.
Pix please.:thumbup: ;) :D :cool:

What's the difference between a real Ming dynasty Jian blade with modern dress versus one with the original dress? :confused:
How about a Sundang or two, surely you've got at least one anyway? ;)

I don't know that much about swords but I do agree there isn't any "Best" one that would do everything.

It does seem to me however that some of the people in the days of yore would have been best served if they had been armed with their opponent's sword.
A good example would be those who fought in the Crusades.
Had they of had their opponent's sword and been trained in its use each side would've done a better job of slaughtering the other wouldn't you think? ;) :confused:
 
I would have to agree that the curved single edged sword has been the most useful. Best is relative and would have changed many times during the past. The best sword now I think would be a rapier or a smallsword. These are light, easy to carry, and easy to use IMO. And they would be efficient currently because obviously body armor isnt too common. However, in the past, katanas have been proven strong enough to cleave through armor and the body underneath it, as well as being fairly light and agile. So basically, against an armored opponent a katana or sabre like weapon would be most efficient. But I believe the ideal sword with unarmored opponents is the rapier. It is easier to recover from a thrust, doesnt provide as much of an opening as slashing does, and can be almost as deadly. When I took fencing classes I quickly learned that the rapier would be my weapon of choice in almost any situation, despite my greater interest in katanas.
 
This is a Chinese Jian. The gentleman, priest and scholar weapon. The dress is recent but carved from old mahagony. The brass fittings are also recent but all is in the proper styles (Long Quan) for the period. The blade is Ming dynasty as noted by Philip Tom and Scott Rodel who are some of the top experts in this country in Chinese arms and armor.

You rarely find the dress intact from a blade this old.
 
This probably belonged to a Chinese nobleman (duke) partly because of the scabbard design (Ching dynasty). The main indicator is the grip wrap in yellow. Only the nobility could wear this color. Serious offence otherwise.

Indicators of the goose quill is the false edge and spatulate shape of the blade tip.

Another military weapon of at least the officer class.
 
The Ox Tail saber was given usually to the raw recruits and they were sent out to slash and chop. Deadly weapon even in unskilled hands. The pictures show an exceptional example with black laquered scababrd and very high quailty fittings for an Ox Tail.
 
More common than the Goose Quill blade. This was used by the military also and was a later, but still Ching dynasty design. The scabbard is ray skin and probably original as are all the swords I am showing except for the two Jian.
 
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