Ultimate Sword Design

This Jian is one of my real favorites and an eBay steal! None of the others came from eBay and I strongly suggest that there are VERY few dealers on eBay that have honest Chinese swords.

In the scabbard it is nearly four feet long. I like that it really looks like some kind of staff when sheathed.

The blade, according to Scott Rodel probably began life as one of the biggest two handed jian ever made. This jian was about five feet long overall. It was used by some of the biggest Chinese warriors and was one of the very few jian ever carried in a military battle.

It was used not only against soldiers, but also their horses.

My blade has been broken and reshaped. About a foot of the tip is now gone. The laquered dark red and steel scababrd is newer than the balde and was made for the reshaped blade.
 
This is a large and very good Moro sword from the Philipines. It was collected by a good friend's great grandfather in the late 1800's while he was stationed there.

It is unfortunate that the tip of the pommel has a broken off part. I sanded it down until smooth and refinished the pommel. See the other pictures of the Moro swords to see what the pommel should look like.

This has the original scabbard. Rare among Moro swords because when they went into battle they dropped the scabbards and left them behind.
 
Don't know how old. This sword and the next Moro were pictured in Robert Cato's book, "The Moro Sword." THE text on these fantastic weapons.

No scabbard

Ivory pommel.
 
This was also pictured in "The Moro Sword." Silver pommel and fittings on the scabbard including very old coins inset. Not the original scabbard.
 
Bill Marsh said:
This Jian is one of my real favorites and an eBay steal! None of the others came from eBay and I strongly suggest that there are VERY few dealers on eBay that have honest Chinese swords.

In the scabbard it is nearly four feet long. I like that it really looks like some kind of staff when sheathed.

The blade, according to Scott Rodel probably began life as one of the biggest two handed jian ever made. This jian was about five feet long overall. It was used by some of the biggest Chinese warriors and was one of the very few jian ever carried in a military battle.

It was used not only against soldiers, but also their horses.

My blade has been broken and reshaped. About a foot of the tip is now gone. The laquered dark red and steel scababrd is newer than the balde and was made for the reshaped blade.
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All beautiful Swords Bill and a wonderful collection too boot!!!!
Your Sundang's make mine look like a tourist model the way they are made compared to mine.
Mine looks like it was forged over a small fire in the jungle and very well could have been.
I still need to send it too Federico and let him fix it up to its old glory, that is if it ever had any.:)
I know he could at the very least tell me something about it.:thumbup: :)

It's a very interesting history attached to this Jian.
How on earth was Scott Rodel able to tell the sword had started life as a foot longer sword than it is now? :confused:
Also how do these guys determine the time period they were made? :confused:
Too me and too most people, even some real afficiandos, a piece of steel is a piece of steel and one piece of steel appears just the same as another piece of steel.:o

I know when I came to the HI Forum that I knew absolutely nothing about the khukuri and I still don't know much but I have learned a little about them.
I can understand somewhat about guys that are around antiques all the time and how they can determine the age pretty close by the style, shape of the blade and handle and especially the scabbard when extant but too me I would think a straight sword would be dayumed difficult too pin down.

So much too learn, so little time to learn it.:( :o
 
Yvsa said:
It's a very interesting history attached to this Jian.
How on earth was Scott Rodel able to tell the sword had started life as a foot longer sword than it is now? :confused:
Also how do these guys determine the time period they were made? :confused:
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Scott has one of the untouched orignals. I offered him a lot for it, but he wouldn't sell.

One of the ways you can tell is with the inset "stars" in the blade. Often the tips are broken off and reshaped. Then the "star" nearest the tip is 'way too close to the tip as compared with the distance it should be.

Enlarged a part of the Jian picture to show the little brass or bronze dots in the blade. These are called "stars." Had a problem with reflection on the star nearest the tip, but it is very close to the tip. Should be about a foot more steel beyond it.

Any of the blades that have stars should have seven. If less, it has REALLY been cut down!

Determining time period is a job for super-well-qualified experts, and they ain't telling out loud because THEN the Chinese guys would start incorporating THOSE criteria and we would all be up the creek.

All I know is find the top guys and get them on your side by buying from them and also hiring them to give appraisals.
 
gunhou said:
My thought has always been that a slightly curved saber-style sword similar in contour to the Cossack saber, with one third of the back edge sharpened, would be close to ideal. Width of 1-1/2" and thickness of around 3/8" to 7/16"; and blade length about thirty to thirty-four inches (depending on the height and reach of the wielder) would be the best compromise for cut and thrust. We don't need no fancy basket hilts, just a nice recurved grip. An alternative would be a kopis style (Greek or Celtic) pattern. No accident that the kukh has a similar, though more extreme and agriculturally oriented blade design that sacrifices a bit of thrust for a lot of chop. All in all, though, I'd prefer the standard Cossack pattern sword...in nice Wootz steel!
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kinda like 'my precious'
lg_GeorgianSword1.jpg


i was 1st epee on my university fencing team (fenced for 4 years at college in NY), the point is the thing for duelling one on one, or in a sheild wall with your gladius where the advanceing legionairres put three inches of wide gladius into the bad guy, then the ranks behind stomp his head flat with their hobnail boots.

as stated earlier, curved edge produces massive wounds which can incapacitate quickly, and if they don't kill, require long times to heal, and thus require resources by your enemy. in war, better to incapacitate than kill as it uses up precious resources of your enemy much faster, kill a man & you cost the enemy one man, wound him and you've cost them 5.
the point kills, the edge wounds

one trouble with nice narrow rapiers and epee's, besides not going thru plate armour curass's very well (see UK Queens household cavalry & life guards) is even if you skewer your opponent, it might make him mad enough to walk down the blade and gut you. jim bowie in his famous river bank duel with multiple opponents was so skewered, killed the others and almost died AFTER. epee may kill eventually but unless you've been really well trained in where to stab & can do it consistantly, you're better off with a curved sabre/shashka/shamshir. my instructor, a 70yr+ old 4'6" 98lb weakling in appearance, was probably the toughest person i have known, he was a retired imperial hungarian cavalry officer & olympic medal winner (sabre), would swing apples on a string & have us thrust at them for hours. we hated it, but it is effective as a training excercise..
 
Wow, those are some ncie swords! Thanks for sharing the pictures with us!

As for the original topic, I agree with the other guys here -- there is no such thing as an 'ultimate sword'. The best type of sword for a given fight is dependent on what the other guy is holding. You want something strong enough to parry or block his blows, but light enough to keep your speed up. Using a style/type of sword he's never seen before is a big plus, too. ;)

I've heard a lot of people wondering what would happen if two 'equally skilled' opponents faced off, one with an epee/rapier and one with a katana. Epee would probably by quick enough to get in there and score, but the katana is such a heavy cutter that one blow just about anywhere will end the fight.
 
the thread is drifting, but I will say one thing cause it needs to be said.
For some reason, a lot of people think that the Japanese sword schools do not use the thrust with the katana or that the katana is ill suited to thrusting.
That is untrue.
They used the thrust with the katana and almost every other weapon.
No, they didnt try to cut through armor.
They found a weak spot and thrust in.
In the Warring states period, tachi often were left unsharpened except for the tip.
Why? Parry and thrust.
 
In inverse order:
Yep. There are specific striking areas in Japanese sword work, usually the unarmored areas or "joints" of armor.

Nice pics, gentlemen. Thanks.

No "best": firearm or sword.

For modern usage, I think the longest practical sword will have about 16" blade and 8.5" handle, with a sturdy singled-edged blade and moderate curve. There have been instances of blade work in combat within the last couple of years, but nothing any larger would be useful (and truthfully, a 16.5" WWII model would probably do the job better-more utility for various tasks- except in .00000001 % instances).

Busse has made a few swords that are about this size.

John
 
Bill Marsh said:
One of the ways you can tell is with the inset "stars" in the blade. Often the tips are broken off and reshaped. Then the "star" nearest the tip is 'way too close to the tip as compared with the distance it should be.
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Bill I noticed the "stars" and was going to ask you about them.
What were the purpose of the stars if you know?
I realize that often many old customs meanings have been lost over time. A good example is the khukuri and the center ring on the handle, the grooves in the handle and the true meaning of the cho.

It's also interesting that these long Jians were used on the enemy's horses as well as the soldier.
Are the Jians a particularly heavy sword or thicker than an average Chinese Sword?

And having such a heavy duty purpose I'm thinking that the quality of the steel must be very good and with a lot of strength if they're not overly thick?

And that's just one of the things that makes the study of ancient weapons and tools interesting. The study of the ancient weapons and tools and how they were made always seems to lead us to the history of the times and the access the particular people had to the raw materials to make the weapons and tools or whether the material was traded for instead of mined and also the access to the craftsmen who made them whether local or in/from another country.
I think maybe a good example would be the wootz traded from India to the Arabians and then the legendary Damascus blades that was made from it.

Did China have its own iron ore mines and if not how was the steel attained?
Just how good was the ancient Chinese Steel?
 
Perhaps a direct ancester of the old scottish basket hilt. Quite similar with a basket hilt and straight single edge(oftentimes featuring a false edge on first six inches of blade). They always seem to come with a cat or lion's head crest on the pommel. Don't know why.
It's believed the design originated with slavic mercenaries that were employed by the Doge of Venice in the 16th Century. With a blackened basket hilt it seems more sinister than the brass hilted or plain bright steel of the Scottish weapons.
 
Once again, showing my ignorance, I always thought that sabers were slashing weapons to be used by horsemen, or against unarmoured opponents, or when you were in a position of superior height; that the gladius (w/ 20in or so blade) was ideal if you had a shield and a bunch of other guys doing the same sort of "poke and push, keep on marching;" that the cutlass with short curved blade was made to incapacitate in a sudden attack; that fencing foils were mostly for competition, not combat; and that longswords (BRAVEHEART notwithstanding) were one-on-one weapons.

The Japanese swords have always been works of art to me. I have a hard time imagining troops with such weapons, but individuals of special skills and techniques seem ideally fitted.

I'd agree with Spectre about a length for general purpose in today's world. Maybe 20 inches...(and leaf shaped because I like the leaf shape.)

(Here's a kindjal on eBay. Not mine. 'Bout right. http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-OLD-CAUCAS...6578427888QQcategoryZ4070QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem )

Again...I'm literally ignorant, just random thinking.

Warfare techniques would dictate tools, wouldn't they?
 
Kismet said:
... that fencing foils were mostly for competition, not combat

(Here's a kindjal on eBay. Not mine. 'Bout right. http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-OLD-CAUCASIAN-KINDJAL-DAGGER-19TH-CENTURY_W0QQitemZ6578427888QQcategoryZ4070QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem )
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fencing foils are not really weapons, just practice thingys, very restricted target allowed, basically point thrusts to chest area counts & everything else doesn't count

fencing sabres are also not weapons, being much like a fencing foil with a better guard & a bigger target, everything above the waist counts, inc. arms & legs. & slashes as well as thrusts there count.

the epee (what i trained in for 4 years) is a stiff triangular bladed weapon whose point has been blunted, the descendant of the rapier & court sword. the entire body, from the toes up is a legit target, their is very little difference between it and those used in the last legal duels in france a little over a century ago. sharpen the tip a bit & you have a very deadly weapon. even the blunted version hurts like heck when you get hit in the body & we always wore a lot more padding & leather than the foil & sabre guys.

i always favored the lead foot/lower leg & the forearm as targets - in real duels punch thru his forearm & he drops his weapon, thru the foot & he can't maneuver much. throat is good too! in real duels, groin, knees, inner thigh (vena cava), solar plexus all good targets, in epee fencing they work well also especially against those cross trained in the other two disciplines, foil & sabre, as they tend to forget to defend below the waist.

that kindjal = qama = qaddara = roman gladius, ie. double edged short sword, atlanta cutlery sells one that a lot of roman re-enactors use as a starting point to create their own gladii, re-hilt & fancy scabbard & you are in business. deadly with or without the sheild wall

kindjals also come in shorter & curved versions & also double curved.
 
OMRie said:
The ultimate sword is the one you've trained with and know most closely
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OMRie that would apply to the individual but not in the context with what I think cucharadedragon is meaning.
There can be no ultimate sword in that each situation, arms, armor, technique, clothing, weather and unforeseen circumstances determines what would be the best at the time and circumstances.
I do agree that the sword a man knows the best might give him an edge but the other man with equal training and the right sword at the moment would have an advantage.
An example could be a man with an epee like kronckew has trained with going up against a well dressed old German Barbarian in winter clothes with his heavy sword and in his own country.
Hard to say who would be the winner but the man on his own turf and familiar with his surroundings would have the advantage I would think.
Had the man with the epee trained with a heavy sword and access to one he might have an advantage because he would be dressed in lighter clothes.
But in reality with so many variables there just can't be an ultimate sword IMO anyway.;) :D

Kismet said:
Warfare techniques would dictate tools, wouldn't they?
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Kis I truly believe that they do. And sometimes the reverse is true as well.

kronckew said:
kindjals also come in shorter & curved versions & also double curved.
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kronckew, in which way are they double curved?
Do you mean like a Yataghan or something different entirely? :confused:
 
kronkcew can probably explain this in better detail, and probably correct any mistakes I'm bound to make, but...As he said, a foil is merely a practice "tool" for fencers to begin with. It is shorter, lighter, and not as stiff as the epee. Foil is basically to teach new fencers the basic rules. However, many experts, and even olympic fencers do go back to foil. All three styles are present in the olympics. The only valid target area in foil is the torso. I am not exactly certain if epee is the way it is now specifically to hold on to what real life duels used to be like, but epee fencing, imo is the closest you can get to a real sword fight in modern times. The top of the head to the end of your toe is a valid target area, and the weapon is basically equal in shape and feel to a real rapier. Sabre seems to be the most sport oriented style in fencing. Above the waist is the only target area, supposedly to simulate combat on horse back. However, typical fencing footwork is used in sabre which obviously negates the idea of fighting while on a horse.
 
kaosu04, you got it. that's why i chose to train in the epee, as close as you can get to the real thing without blood (and when the d@mn things snap & your opponent is lungeing at you at the time, the new sharp pointy end can supply the blood, still have the scar to prove it, luckily the electric switch at the end of his blade didn't register the hit as it wasn't there any more, so i scored when my unsnapped blade hit him about the same time. didn't go thru the muscle in my tummy just under the skin. hurt tho.)

yvsa:

picture worth a thousand words: double edged (and it was real fun putting a convex edge on both of 'em too!)

kindjal.jpg


and if i ran into that hairy german, i'd say "lassen Sie uns ein Bier trinken mein Freund" & we'd head for the biergarten. if he was an angry teatotaler, i'd have to poke him with an arrow or two from the ol' scythian horse-bow to soften him up then scrunch him with my trusty bronze ball-peen war hammer, if he's wearing lotsa armour. my zira bouk would finish him off...


there was an interesting film about Rob Roy i saw over here a little while back, english dandy in his wig lisped into the picture & was challenged by big hulky scot with two handed claymore, english guy skipped around him, wore him out then stuck him thru the throat with his court sword (epee). later in film he challenges rob roy & his backsword one-handed claymore with similar results until near the end when good ol' rob, gasping for air & poked full of tiny bloody incapacitating but not yet vital holes collapses and english dandy gets cocky & flourishes around him showing off as rob procedes to cleave him from his left shoulder to his navel.

updated: thought i'd share this with you, just arrived in post: dutch east indies klewang:
51_1_b.JPG

50cm. blade, fullers down sides, also seperately fullered either side of first 1/2 of blade right at the top of false edge section & has another deep concave fuller running the last 1/2 along the top of the spine, evidence of laminations in steel, so probably damascus. brass hilt and guard, hair covered leather sheath, hair mostly worn off. feels more deadly in the hand than my caucasian shashka even. this one joins the ready locker, not the archives or wall hangers. mnice patina, so no, i won't etch it.
 
Kronckew:
fencing sabres are also not weapons, being much like a fencing foil with a better guard & a bigger target, everything above the waist counts, inc. arms & legs. & slashes as well as thrusts there count.

I beg to differ on that.
I study saber and on real duel the epe which resembles the rapier was a thrust weapon.
No edge, and if an edge was applied was primarly so the blade would not be help by the opponent.
While saber is mainly a cut weapon, can also be used for thurst.
What is better? Depends on everything Ivsa posted, mostly talent.

I had a fellow lunge and stab my right thigh while I was chopping his head in two.
Actually he fell on his butt.

Alfred
 
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