Uneven bevels

I am currently asymmetrical (differing left/right) secondaries because I like the way the combination feathers wood and slightly steeped side gives a little added strength to cutting edge, while still allowing low approach angle of the left side when right-hand cutting. "Even" bevels (in my mind) are purely aesthetics, not really performance related.

I may be mistaken, but wouldn't an off center edge put undue pressure on the steeper side, thus being more prone to inducing chip out under hard use or lateral forces by pressing into the steeper side from the more shallow or higher ground bevel?
In essence, treating your edge as a piece of flint/chert while Flint knapping? I would think that since the bevels aren't even, the loading of pressure would be unevenly distributed and thus be the sole cause or at least a significant contributing factor to edge weakness leading to chipping and possibly more significant damage if this were a chopping blade due to the sudden forces exerted.

For a counter point, I use a Becker bk15 at work as a Butcher and my knife Is unevenly ground (and thinned) to aid in slicing soft skin, meat and soft tissue. This knife is not used as a camp knife. So my suspicions are just that, in regards to harder usage.

If I am wrong, please inform me.
 
This is assuming the spine is ground 90 to the centerline. If not your theory
holds no water :)

I have that covered in my assumptions statement :):

Assume the cross-sectional blade design is symmetrical and the basic cross-sectional shape of the blade fits within the triangle with the important points being the two bottom corners of the triangle correlate to the two corners of the spine and the point on top being the edge of the knife.
 
@NJBillK

Interesting comments related to theoretical considerations. I typically think/ponder on what I do prior to doing so in much theoretical fashion. Additionally, I have also found I seem to like asymmetric handle profiles (thicker on the palm side), first by conceptualization then testing first hand. Examples: ESSE-6, BK-16, etc.

With regard to your comments related to loading, chipping, and chopping I would say that there would most likely become an issue at some point, and contrary to your comments the steeper side would be the stronger side. In this regard I have been testing a few knives running asymmetric bevels and would welcome any constructive comments you may have.

Please, however make any comments to video threads on YouTube or PM me, so as not to derail the OP's thread here. (YouTube/GravityRoller/Sharp Sh*t and look for the series of videos on the Kershaw Camp-10 & Outcast. A progression of thinning the bevels and running asymmetric bevels. Videos were specifically for self documentation and learning on my part, and as such I welcome constructive comments & criticisms.

Additionally, I have been running my secondary EDC Spyderco Military Ti/G10 TIL Frame Lock in s30v with asymmetric secondaries in the region of 15-dps for some time now without significant problem. Palm side being the steeper overall.

I really don't see any real strength related issues as with using asymmetric ground tools over many years, some of my hard use tools are chisel ground (wood working chisels, chainsaw cutting teeth, etc., etc.).

Regards,
Chris
 
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With consideration that the primary bevels are not even ... or if the primary goal is to have even looking secondaries ...,

Maybe ..., if the goal is simply to have symmetric looking secondary bevels on both sides of the knife, then perhaps a simple solution like grinding/sharpening the secondary bevels with the primary bevel laid flat on the table of the EdgePro (would negate the effects of the primary bevels being uneven with respect to having even looking secondary bevels). Test or set the angle of the EP to the side you like (with primary flat on the table) then flip to the other side. User would need to consider they would be taking material off the smaller looking bevel, until such time both sides matched. This "option" is one of the things that the EP design allows a user to do (where other fixed blade systems only allow grinding based on the flats and the secondaries widths are then relative to the primaries). Net result, the secondary bevels will appear even and be relative to the center-line as the primary is. The actual angle of the secondary bevel (relative to the center-line) will be slightly different, but visually what most people will see will look symmetric or "even".

Question is; do you want bevels that are even, or bevels that look even ...?

EDIT: chiral.grolim, Great Diagrams (as usual). If what I referenced makes sense, perhaps can you diagram/illustrate as my explanations are most likely more confusing that they could be ...?

Spey's idea is on the far right:
Uneven%2BBevels.png


If the primary bevels are different angles, instead of grinding the primary bevels to match (2nd from the right), the OP could lay the primary bevels flat on the table, pick an angle to grind at, and simply grind the edge-bevels to the same height - the final angle would be slightly asymmetric due to the asymmetry of the primary bevels, and the apex would be off from the spine-center, but both of these would be very slight so as to be less noticed, while the shiny bevel widths would match and this would require the removal of far less metal.

In my opinion, this knife could stand to lose some weight and a primary re-grind would not be amiss ;) but the design is intended to be fat, so the simplest fix is the best - follow Spey's advice and use the primary-bevels as the guide, then simply grind until the bevel-heights match.
 
... I would think that since the bevels aren't even, the loading of pressure would be unevenly distributed and thus be the sole cause or at least a significant contributing factor to edge weakness leading to chipping and possibly more significant damage if this were a chopping blade due to the sudden forces exerted...

Uneven distribution of pressure = side-loading caused by the strength of the material on either side of the blade, not by the blade itself, and influenced by the cutting angle and clearance angle between bevel-faces and the surface of the target.
http://woodtools.nov.ru/mag/understanding_wood/understanding_wood_id.htm
understanding_wood_01.jpg


As far as the blade is concerned, it has a symmetrical bevel (the schematic above looks like a symmetrical bevel despite being the edge of a chisel-ground planer-blade), the asymmetry is in the "angle of approach", i.e. clearance vs cutting. Resistance from the material being cut will try to force both of these angles to zero - either force the blade flatter so it slips out of the cut or force it more vertical so it cuts deeper and wedges, trying to establish equilibrium of pressure on each bevel face. In the diagram below, the wood being planed off is trying to close the clearance-angle via pressure against the top face of the blade while the the lower face is lifted off the surface of the material in the clearance angle:
http://planetuning.infillplane.com/index.html
cutting_diagram_sm.gif


If you look at a chainsaw tooth, you'll note that the chisel is oriented such that the flat-bevel (back) is oriented with a 10-15 degrees clearance angle to keep it off the surface of the medium and give it a specific depth of penetration regulated by the forward gauge. The clearance angle is a necessity.

2010-02-28_210613_1.png


The lateral stress induced by this angle of attack is substantial due to the clearance (i.e. wedging force is mostly on only one side of the blade) but it is directly proportional to the strength of the material being cut. The planer and chainsaw are set to cut a very small depth = weak resistance/stress for the wood-chip as it is cut/shaved away. Add to this that most chainsaws/chippers/planers/etc. are beveled at ~30 degrees (= 15-dps) with sufficient thickness behind that - the steel is built to withstand this stress at the edge over repeated high-force cuts. Is the uneven distribution of pressure THE major factor in edge-deformation? Yes, but it is effectively mitigated through proper edge geometry = material support.


If you chop perpendicular (via spine center-line) to a surface using an edge that is asymmetrical, resistance/wedging-pressure will be different on each side as the material struggles to equalize the two by changing the angle of the cut or bending/cracking the edge itself, but using a blade with sufficient material support to resist such stress will make it hard for a user to see an difference in durability between, for example, an edge that is 30-degrees inclusive and asymmetrical vs symmetrical.
 
As far as the blade is concerned, it has a symmetrical bevel (the schematic above looks like a symmetrical bevel despite being the edge of a chisel-ground planer-blade), the asymmetry is in the "angle of approach", i.e. clearance vs cutting. Resistance from the material being cut will try to force both of these angles to zero - either force the blade flatter so it slips out of the cut or force it more vertical so it cuts deeper and wedges, trying to establish equilibrium of pressure on each bevel face.
That is what I referring to, wouldn't that cause the tool, be it a planer, knife, axe, or any edged object to favor one side of the material being cut? Caused directly by the fact that one side of the blade is experiencing more pressure compared to the other. Which is why one has to put pressure towards the chisel ground face of kitchen knife while slicing a tomato to get a straight slice. As stated below:
In the diagram below, the wood being planed off is trying to close the clearance-angle via pressure against the top face of the blade while the the lower face is lifted off the surface of the material in the clearance angle:
http://planetuning.infillplane.com/index.html
cutting_diagram_sm.gif


If you look at a chainsaw tooth, you'll note that the chisel is oriented such that the flat-bevel (back) is oriented with a 10-15 degrees clearance angle to keep it off the surface of the medium and give it a specific depth of penetration regulated by the forward gauge. The clearance angle is a necessity.

2010-02-28_210613_1.png
While the depth is controlled by the front guide tooth, one can buy a more aggressive chain if the motor has the power to pull it, in NJ when cutting pine, we will often go with an Oregon co. chain due to the more aggressive cut in softer wood compared to a chisel ground Stihl co.
See the following for chainsaw tooth type info:
three basic configurations exist. Full chisel chain has a square cornered tooth, splitting wood fibers easily in the cut for fast, efficient cutting in clean softwood. Semi-chisel chain has a rounded working corner formed by a radius between the top and side plates. While slower than full chisel in softwood, it retains an acceptable cutting sharpness longer, making it the preferred choice for dirtier wood, hard or dry wood, frozen wood or stump work, all of which would rapidly degrade full chisel chain. "Chamfer chisel" chains by Oregon are similar to semi-chisel design but have a small 45 degree chamfer between the plates rather than a radius. Performance is similar to good semi-chisel.
With all of that being said, while the angle of the flat edge would only be important in so far as the amount of steel reinforcing the edge, considering that the effect it has on the depth of the cut is negligible although it does have some.
fwiw: The type you are referring to is the chisel ground.

If you chop perpendicular (via spine center-line) to a surface using an edge that is asymmetrical, resistance/wedging-pressure will be different on each side as the material struggles to equalize the two by changing the angle of the cut or bending/cracking the edge itself, but using a blade with sufficient material support to resist such stress will make it hard for a user to see an difference in durability between, for example, an edge that is 30-degrees inclusive and asymmetrical vs symmetrical.
As to whether it would be noticeable for the user of the bladed tool, that is entirely circumstantial, based upon what is being cut and the force being exerted.
If someone is using an asymmetrical edged machete to cut tall grass and the blade is pulled down into a stone, hits a stump or experiences anything that the edge was not intended to hit and therefore not prepared for such, it will likely incur more damage than a symmetrical edge of the same inclusiveness solely based upon the load and shock being dispersed throughout the blade more evenly.

Regarding chainsaws, I used to be a climber for a few tree companies throughout my 20s. Though my experience isn't in the engineering end of the spectrum, I am willing to bank on what I have personally witnessed and experienced while using saws of different sizes and types.
 
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