Unrealistic Expectations

[Starkman1]

I can't help but wonder if we sometimes expect too much, or perhaps our expectations may be a bit too unrealistic regarding our knives. In another thread I think John White says it best:

"If we're going to use natural materials like ivory, wood, stag, and horn, we have to understand that natural materials will "breathe" and move small amounts, and allow for that in our building methods. We also have to understand there may be occasional problems, and be willing to stand behind our work."

I might add that as customer, when we do decide to purchase a knife using natural materials it may be unrealistic to expect the maker to fix problems time and time again on the same knife. This may not be possible if the maker is deceased. In my opinion, checking of ivory, slight shrinkage etc. is part of the game, especially on older pieces.

With some collectibles some wear, or movement of materials is considered normal and does not severely effect the value of the piece.

Bob

 

[Kevin Jones]

I don't think we expect too much as I have only had issue with natural handle material moving twice in my collecting knives for 9 years (one stag and one ivory). In both cases the makers were glad to fix these problems and left absolutely no evidence of the issue.

I believe both examples above were the result of the materials not being allowed to cure properly before use, as the problems showed up immediately and have not returned since the repairs.

I have natural material knives in my collection as old as 15 years that haven't moved/checked/cracked ANY in the considerable years I have owned them.
There's quite a few things that will/can affect natural handle materials such as proper curing, proper working of the material by the maker, climates, direct sunlight, shipping, heat, AC, humidity, however most if not all can be managed in my opinion.

 

[Starkman1]

You bring up a few interesting points:

I believe both examples above were the result of the materials not being allowed to cure properly before use, as the problems showed up immediately and have not returned since the repairs.

If the problem is associated with the maker, they should be held accountable (i.e. lack of curing, getting material too hot, not knowing how to properly use the material, etc).

I have natural material knives in my collection as old as 15 years that haven't moved/checked/cracked ANY in the considerable years I have owned them.
There's quite a few things that will/can affect natural handle materials such as proper curing, proper working of the material by the maker, climates, direct sunlight, shipping, heat, AC, humidity, however most if not all can be managed in my opinion.

I'm a big fan of the San Francisco knives and have seem some outstanding examples of Michael Price's and Will & Finck's work and there is some cracking of the ivory, natural patina etc. Of course the extent of cracking, pitting etc does have an effect, but after 100 + years this is expected. Same with firearms and many other antiques and collectibles.

Makes you wonder about the value of our knives we have today vs 25, or 50 + years. Anyone on this forum collect older pieces (25+, or period pieces?

 

[RogerP]

I hear what you're saying Bob.

I don't think that if materials move it is necessarily the fault of the material not being sufficiently dry or the maker's lack of knowledge or skill in working the material. Though clearly, dry, stable materials which are worked properly and used in a manner to minimize the impact of shrinking / swelling will vastly improve one's chances. Just as a vastly different environment as between maker and customer will increase the risk. A knife made in a rain forest, going to a desert - what do you think will hapen?

But sometimes stuff just happens. And it happens, I would suspect, more frequently than once or twice in forever, or else it wouldn't be so very much discussed.

Should it be on the maker's dime? Well, I can't say I feel it should - though many makers will in fact remedy such issues. It's probably something makers should make clear as a matter of policy, so at least the customer knows where he stands in the event that unfolds.

I DO think that movement is part of the inherent risk of using natural materials.

I DON'T think that risk should be shouldered exclusively by the maker.

I DO think that the maker should do his very best to select, store and work the material in such a way as to minimize that risk.

I DON'T think that risk can ever be completely eliminated.

Roger

 

[tom mayo]

Totally disagree...........

I have made knives with material that is completely stable, sitting in my shop attic for 10 years or more, only to find the knife ending up in AZ or Colorado and shrinking horribly.
Notice I said ENDING UP......I didnt send them to these places in the beginning.

Where I live the humidity stays around 60%..........In those places I get a nose bleed after being there for one day.

 

[Jon Brand]

My ivory tends to move around with the seasons. In the winter it seems to shrink a tad and in the summer it expands again. I did have a knife recently with scales that seperated and shrunk alot, and it freaked me out. I checked all my other knives and they seemed fine, so I think some pieces just move more then others. Maybe a reason to think about getting more pearl..

 

[Kevin Jones]

Bob, it could be most difficult to place fault for natural material issue solely with the knifemaker must less prove it. In both cases I simply let the makers know of the problems and they were very happy to address the issues and fix them. I would have been perfectly willing to pay for their efforts, however neither wanted anything in return for fixing the problems.

As previously stated, I do believe most risks can be mitigated. For example if I lived in a desert, I would not purchase a knife with natural handle material coming from a rain forest.

I believe much of the risk falls on the collector/purchaser to understand the risks of natural handle materials, know the "Do's and Don'ts" in caring for it and practicing good old common sense.

Considering the tremendous quantity of custom knives created with natural handle materials, I don't see it as a huge problem. As I stated today in a another thread, we so often hear of the "knife handle gone bad", however rarely if ever hear of the thousands of handles which go year after year without any issue what so ever.

 

[Kohai999]

My ivory tends to move around with the seasons. In the winter it seems to shrink a tad and in the summer it expands again. I did have a knife recently with scales that seperated and shrunk alot, and it freaked me out. I checked all my other knives and they seemed fine, so I think some pieces just move more then others. Maybe a reason to think about getting more pearl..

You all know my opinion on this, but it will be stated anyway.

Ivory is a beautiful and compelling material, but is also about the "most organic" of them, and just like a stunningly beautiful, yet crazy woman, is bound to break your heart every once in a while...badly.

If you are willing to take the risks, get educated and move forward.

At this point, I collect knives with stabilized wood, aged stag and pearls, synthetics as well.

My expectations are basic, pearl and wood crack usually, when you drop it, and stag moves. Aged stag moves less.

I don't collect knives with ivory, nor would I hold a maker responsible for the movement.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

As previously stated, I do believe most risks can be mitigated. For example if I lived in a desert, I would not purchase a knife with natural handle material coming from a rain forest.

As Tom pointed out, it might end up there anyway - unless it's one you keep for ever and ever and have buried with you.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

You all know my opinion on this, but it will be stated anyway.

Ivory is a beautiful and compelling material, but is also about the "most organic" of them, and just like a stunningly beautiful, yet crazy woman, is bound to break your heart every once in a while...badly.

If you are willing to take the risks, get educated and move forward.

At this point, I collect knives with stabilized wood, aged stag and pearls, synthetics as well.

My expectations are basic, pearl and wood crack usually, when you drop it, and stag moves. Aged stag moves less.

I don't collect knives with ivory, nor would I hold a maker responsible for the movement.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Well said. I'm willing to put up with the "crazy woman" ivory handle material, but I know the risks involved. I've actually had very good luck with ivory. It's horn (not stag) that I have had consistently poor experiences with.

Roger

 

[ckerwin]

Good thread Bob.:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Starkman1]

I'll admit that I have a tendency to steer away from ivory although it is beautiful. I agree with Roger about the Do's and Don't regarding the expectations.

What do folks think about blades. A few spots over time, is that a killer or normal?

Let's move beyond current pieces, by that I mean knives that are 10 years +. I think any knives that start having problems within the first several years may be indicative of stability, craftsmanship etc. But what would be normal wear in the long term? For example, some of the older Loveless knives.

Bob

 

[Kevin Jones]

As Tom pointed out, it might end up there anyway - unless it's one you keep for ever and ever and have buried with you.

Roger

It's most likeky not going to end up in the desert unless someone there buys or accepts it.
My advice to someone in the desert is that there's plenty places to purchase beautiful custom knives other than the rain forest and to try to determine where their knives come from.

 

[betzner]

I would tend to agree with STeven. I try NOT to collect ivory-handled pieces, but sometimes with Warenskis, it comes with the territory - when one speaks to me so loudly that it forces me to acquire it. With only five ivory pieces I've been lucky so far. But I've seen so much ivory that's cracked, I really try my best to shy away.

My preference in natural handle material is high quality stone material, especially African pietersite and certain marbles.

Best,

Bob

 

[Kevin Jones]

I'll admit that I have a tendency to steer away from ivory although it is beautiful. I agree with Roger about the Do's and Don't regarding the expectations.

What do folks think about blades. A few spots over time, is that a killer or normal?

Let's move beyond current pieces, by that I mean knives that are 10 years +. I think any knives that start having problems within the first several years may be indicative of stability, craftsmanship etc. But what would be normal wear in the long term? For example, some of the older Loveless knives.

Bob

I don't like imperfections period in handles or blades on new or old knives. That's one of the reasons I only keep 20-30 knives rather than 200-300 knives. I'm able to pay close attention and care for them so problems don't develop.
I learned this in my collecting classic cars where all sorts of bad things can happen as cars just "sit" in the garage.

 

[betzner]

I'll admit that I have a tendency to steer away from ivory although it is beautiful. I agree with Roger about the Do's and Don't regarding the expectations.

What do folks think about blades. A few spots over time, is that a killer or normal?

Let's move beyond current pieces, by that I mean knives that are 10 years +. I think any knives that start having problems within the first several years may be indicative of stability, craftsmanship etc. But what would be normal wear in the long term? For example, some of the older Loveless knives.
I
Bob

Another good point brought up by this thread, Bob. In my case, I would never touch a true Warenski "collectible" for my collection unless it's perfect - or at most, has a simple, readily correctable cosmetic issue that Julie or Curt could easily address (much like Jay Hendrickson would on a Moran).

Best,

Bob

 

[RogerP]

It's most likeky not going to end up in the desert unless someone there buys or accepts it.
My advice to someone in the desert is that there's plenty places to purchase beautiful custom knives other than the rain forest and to try to determine where their knives come from.

Well, you're missing the point. After the maker sells the knife he has no idea where it will end up thereafter, so significant disparity in environments remains an ongoing possibility. And I suspect that most of the rational readership would understand that the rainforest / desert example was chosen as an illustrative extreme.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

What do folks think about blades. A few spots over time, is that a killer or normal?

Somewhere in between for me - depends on how bad and whether it is something that the maker can / will attempt to remedy - something I would fully expect to pay for.

Let's move beyond current pieces, by that I mean knives that are 10 years +. I think any knives that start having problems within the first several years may be indicative of stability, craftsmanship etc. But what would be normal wear in the long term? For example, some of the older Loveless knives.

I don't know that there is such thing as normal "wear" in a collectible knife, no matter what the age. If it has been well cared for - and has not been used - there's no reason why it can't remain "mint" for decades.

That said, a minor crack or checkering around a pin etc. on an older ivory-handled knife will not stop me from buying it if I otherwise really like the piece. I would expect it to command a lower price than a comparable piece with a flawless handle, though.

Roger

PS - good topic.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Well, you're missing the point. After the maker sells the knife he has no idea where it will end up thereafter, so significant disparity in environments remains an ongoing possibility. And I suspect that most of the rational readership would understand that the rainforest / desert example was chosen as an illustrative extreme.

Roger

No Roger, you are missing my point.
From the beginning of this thread I've been addressing Bob's opening question from the collector's point of view (as collectors most often buy the knives or are you going to argue that too?). Point being, by collectors being selective as to the type natural material, the particular knife and sources, understanding the risks of natural handle materials, knowing the "Do's and Don'ts" in caring for it and practicing good old common sense they can greatly reduce or eliminate their risks of problematic natural handle materials.

Specifically to your above comment, if the collector lives in a dry climate perhaps it best if they don't purchase their knives from wet climates, thus mitigating their risks.

 

[Starkman1]

I don't know that there is such thing as normal "wear" in a collectible knife, no matter what the age. If it has been well cared for - and has not been used - there's no reason why it can't remain "mint" for decades.

Take for instance old Winchester 73's and Colts. Sure, the more close to original, the more money it commands, but over time changing hands, use etc., some wear is normal, and does not reduce the value too much, at all. Heck, its even considered acceptable. We can only do our part as the current owner, but ultimately over time, some handling may be obvious.

That said, a minor crack or checkering around a pin etc. on an older ivory-handled knife will not stop me from buying it if I otherwise really like the piece. I would expect it to command a lower price than a comparable piece with a flawless handle, though.

This is what I'm getting at, but should it really reduce the value so much, because it may be considered "normal" and these mint pieces may be an exception. There are very few near mint Winchester 73's out there, and the very, very few command the greatest amount.



Roger
PS - good topic.

I do wonder what the makers think. Are we collectors too darn picky?

Bob